They have skulls so thick you couldn't pop 'em with a hammer.

StoptheCannibals-2908428

The real irony is that the Rich are going to get a rate increase, limited deductions AND the Republicans are going to look like greedy fools for years to come. If we do go over the cliff, the President is going to propose (and get) a middle-class tax cut on January 3rd, 2013.

#1.89 - Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:47 PM EST

Let's see what happens.............................

I don't mind if they had batted it around last month, or last year. What I mind is that they are batting it around at my expense. For me, it's an imaginary car payment monthly.

The house wanted the senate to act and they barely did and now they are saying that they cannot support it? This is such a bunch of crock. Don't support it and let's see what happens. Remember the people paying more today will be out for blood next election cycle.

"Republicans...do the right thing. Put your country first.."

When was the last time you saw THAT happen?

Cantor has been vying for Boehner's job for years now. Thing is, it's kinda like the old axiom....'Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!'

Cantor is a natural backstabber....you can see it in his demeanor. He relishes the role of criticizing from a protected position. So go ahead, Eric, take center stage. It's about time that you were exposed for the fraud that you are.

We dare you, you gutless, spineless wimp.

I say we vote them all out, Dems and Repubs alike and actually get people in office that actually care about us. That will write laws and policies that are about doing the right thing and not all of this political BS.

Dear Congress,

Yes, cuts are in order. However before you touch your so called entitlement programs lets address some additional costs.....

1. Runaway spending by Home Land Security

2. Runaway cost of Public Sector Workers

3. Runaway costs of Foreign Aid

4. Runaway cost of Military Hardware

5. Runaway cost of CONGRESS

6. Runaway cost of EPA

7. Runaway cost of TSA

When this is done then we can talk about Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Welfare, and unemployment…..

The ChickenLittle congress has already decided to "kick it down the road" for another 60 days....

And who would that be?

All I hear from Obama is that we need to be "fair" and "balanced." If that's the case then the best thing for this country is to go over the media created "cliff." If that happens then EVERYONE gets screwed. Tax increases and program cuts across the board. If "everyone" created this problem then "everyone" should pay for it.

I am prepared, as a patriot, to pay more in taxes and possibly lose my current job to fix this problem. Are you?

HERE IS THE PROBLEM;

the congressional budget office(non-partisan), has just announced the bill will add 3.6 trillion in additional debt over the next 10 years; plus the already projected 4.2 trillion unfunded debt over the next 10 years = 7.8 trillion more unfunded debt, ( more than all the debt in history up until 2009.)

what is it about math that the liberals do not understand, at this rate the dollar will be almost worthless in 10 years; we are on a path to total fiscal collapse!

It's up to the House to find a way to generate a budget (as stated in the Constitution) that will pass in the Senate and be approved or vetoed by the President. If you'll remember, it wasn't that long ago the House kicked Boehner's Plan B down the road. If they insist upon adding amendments that won't pass instead of negotiating in good faith (no my way or the highway nonsense), well, this is the worst Congress we've had in generations.

As long as the POTUS and the DEMS refuse to address the DEFICIT and the DEBT, which means making SPENDING CUTS, the HOUSE IS DOING THE CORRECT THING BY STOPPING THIS BILL.

You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation!

Let's all jump off the FISCAL CLIFF TOGETHER!

The House of Representatives passed a bill in May of 2012, SEVEN MONTHS AGO to deal with the Sequestrations.

DN Then, the Senate refused to vote on it.

Then, the House told the President to pass a bill that would pass both Houses (something the Republicans didn't do above).

So what's your point?

If cutting costs are going to be debated NOW, so will the debt ceiling limit. Please get a clue. The President isn't going to negotiate cutting costs twice. If you want cutting costs (more than 2/24ths of the sequestration $1.6T cuts the Senate approved with a HUGE majority), you're going to have to do a Grand Bargain. Boehner gave that up a week ago.

I predicted, 12 days ago, what would happen. I challenge anyone to point to anything that wasn't predicted:

StoptheCannibals-2908428

The real irony is that the Rich are going to get a rate increase, limited deductions AND the Republicans are going to look like greedy fools for years to come. If we do go over the cliff, the President is going to propose (and get) a middle-class tax cut on January 3rd, 2013.

#1.89 - Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:47 PM EST

Let's see what happens............

Here's what we can do...Deregulate everything, lower taxes, start unfunded wars, rape social security, medicaid and medicare, lower wages, anybody can buy a house, increase health care 300%, raise food prices, increase wage gap, and last but not least. Build more bridges for common people to live under.

RwEvans - Voters blew their chance last Nov to elect new pols. Now let 'em eat s**t and bark at the moon. They're all morons!

The House told the President to pass a bill

When did the President get the power to pass a bill?

He has the Power to Veto or sign a bill into law. he does not have the Power to Pass a Bill or write one.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM;

the congressional budget office(non-partisan), has just announced the bill will add 3.6 trillion in additional debt over the next 10 years; plus the already projected 4.2 trillion unfunded debt over the next 10 years = 7.8 trillion more unfunded debt, ( more than all the debt in history up until 2009.)

Saxon, It was scored yesterday (12/31/12) and it was scored as a $600 Billion debt savings. It makes no pragmatic difference.

And I thought Republicans wanted to cut taxes.........except for the middle class.....typical

Why in the world did the Senate pass a bill without enough spending cuts? The right thing for americans would be spending cuts along with the tax increase. One without the other is worthless so actualy the house would be doing the right thing for americans if they vote it down. That way we get tax increases and spending cuts and all the Bush tax cuts will be gone.

For reasons like this, I have always registered as an Independant, however if the reps. do not put this through, I will NEVER vote for another republican again...EVER!

soarer

Pigotry Have you even looked at this bill. It is a slap in the face of every american.

@soarer,

I am a Democrat and I agree with you. Congress needs two more months when they haven't accomplished anything on this for over a year??????? The only thing that will happen is they'll come back again in ywo months and tell us they need more time since they can't agree on anything.

This bill doesn't address our debt. It slows the rate of our yearly deficit down. Even with the mandated cuts we'll still add over a trillion dollars of new debt every year for the next ten years. That's ten trillion ($10,000,0000,000,000.00) dollars of nerw debt on top of the sixteen trillion we already have.

Enough. Our financial problems need both new revenue and some serious spending cuts (ie, defense, homeland security, entitlements, etc). Every department needs to get on board.

I hopes the republicans in the House have the balls to vote this bill down.

The House told the President to pass a bill

When did the President get the power to pass a bill?

Good, then I'm glad you agree that the Republicans were fools to ask the President to get involved in Legislation the Houses take care of.

Hmmm, Why do the Republicans keep asking the President to be a leader of something he can't do?

So, They want to CUT MORE SPENDING............CUT THE MILITARY, and pull our troops out of Afghanistan, that SHOULD CUT SPENDING.............. Instead of always trying to cut social programs, social security and medicare, let them cut what started the problem in the first place. Two unpaid for wars and a huge MILITARY BILL...............

Cannabis....: go to congress web site, budget office reported at4p.m. est, that the bill as it is written will add a additional 3.6 trillion in new unfunded debt( even taking into account a additional 800 billion in projected revenue over the next 10 years); what the hell is going on in Washington, are they all crazy!

Why is anyone surprised? We knew that the House would baulk at anything that came out of the Senate no matter how bi-partisan - and 88-9 is pretty bi-partisan.

It's going to be the south and mid-west that will be hurt the most if the GOP doesn't agree to a deal. Get ready for small businesses to collapse and for people to lose their jobs and homes if you live south of the Mason-Dixon line or west of the Mississippi and East of the Rocky Mountains. It is kind of funny, the Republican party is posed to hurt most the people who voted them into office - well, with the exception of the wealthy, they'll make out big as the swallow up all of those small businesses and send those jobs to China.

Republican Eric Cantor, Rep. Steven LaTourette, and others in the House who are attempting to block this bill are simply playing their Political hate and power games again. They don't want to pass legislation that the President and the Democratic majority Senate constructed....even though it passed the Senate with an overwhelming bipartisan majority. These sorry excuses for "Representatives" of the American people will have to credit themselves with the destructive results of their arrogant ignorance, and failure to the American people, and they will have to answer for that.

The proposed legislation is a good start. It increases revenue, which moves us in the right direction. When I work on my household budget, I first look at the revenue coming in, and look for ways to increase that. Then I look at what I will spend, based on what I have to spend, and where it will make cuts. It is simply logical, and based on economics 101. I don't decide how much I am going to spend on a home security system before I have even calculated how much I have to spend. Obviously we also need to reduce spending...but with this bunch of arrogant, power hungry idiots who can't even agree on a modest tax increase bill, running the House, I am doubtful they will ever be able to come back up to reality and get that wisely accomplished either. They will continue to insist on their illogical, short sighted and irresponsible antics until they are voted out of office. In my opinion, adequate cuts are another budgeting tip these idiots need to hear. Most of us don't borrow money to give away. I don't hear any of these clowns suggesting we cut the billions of aid we send to Israel, or the many other foreign "influence millions" we borrow with interest only to then approve budgets that give millions away to other economies all over the world, while we ask our most vulnerable American seniors to shoulder a little more cut from their fixed incomes. Very bizarre, this Congress is.

I hope the House does "the right thing" and vote this down, or at least amend it and send it back to the Senate. The cliff is the right choice. We need to increase revenue on EVERYBODY. Cut spending to the bone. Balance the budget. Do the "Right thing"!!

John B, Des Moines, IA

I referred to the House Republicans as feral children in this morning's post for a reason.

I enjoyed your posts in the earlier thread -- the volley was refreshingly informative and interesting. It would be nice to see more of that in posts.

There are three immediate issues; the long overdue expiration of the Bush tax cuts, the sequester (forced cuts in spending), and the debt ceiling. The time to work out a deal addressing all three of these matters has long since passed, and certainly there has not been time for real tax reforms or savings in entitlement programs to be hammered out.

So aside from the last deal with only spending cuts and no tax revenue, the boohooing about not having more spending cuts attached to a tax rate agreement is just the usual rightwing spin.

In regard to the Bush tax cuts, I find if odd that rightwingers refer to the expiration as "new" taxes. These were never permanent, and have only been extended (and the payroll tax breaks added) due to the Great Recession and the working class being taken hostage by the GOP. I personally prefer that all the Bush tax cuts expire then let the new congress work to pass cuts for the 98% -- And even this should be temporary and indexed to the unemployment rate. The tax expiration doesn't concern me, even if my own rates go up and stay there.

The sequester cuts in spending is more of a problem since these were done with a hatchet rather than a scalpel. Still, I question if this would be defined as true "austerity," which would therefore damage economic recovery. If I knew it would not damage the economy, and we could get the meaningful cuts in defense spending, I would support this as well.

But the debt ceiling, this did cause damage the last time around. Citizens in both Parties should be adamantly against another debt ceiling debacle. Threatening to default on our bills is NOT the answer to the deficit, and in fact losing our good credit adds to the deficit.

No, the Republicans making an 11th hour deal, especially a bad deal, are not heroes. They are stupid for not making a deal a long time ago, and even more stupid to go off the fiscal curb (for their brand), but maybe their stupidity will inadvertently save us from a bad tax deal.

With both sides in the Senate passing this overwhelmingly failure by the house will leave republican members as solely to blame. Had it been unable to be passed by either they could play the not enough card.

If you listen to certain right wingers, they love to use the term "class warfare", claiming the left is practicing it. I submit to you that "class warfare" is actually what the rich have been doing TO US for the past 30 years. A few examples off the top of my head.

The owners of Walmart, the Walton family, are worth over $100 billion but Walmarts pay and benefits are so low that they have employees that still need medicaid and food stamps to survive. So we taxpayers end up making the Walton family $10 billion richer each year by subsidizing the working poor.

The NFL makes over 8 billion $ a year yet the NFL owners locked out the refs because the refs would not concede their pension plans.
The NFL commissioner actually had a press conference where he stated with a straight face "Hey, I don't have a pension plan". Yeah, but he neglected to tell the reporters that his salary is $10 million a year as compared to an NFL refs pay of $140,000 a year.

Caterpillar, Con Edison and Verizon are all profitable companies with CEO's that make up to $23 million a year. The fact that they are profitable, healthy companies did not stop the CEO's from trying to take away the employees pensions and reducing other important benefits in the most recent contract negotiations.. In the case of Caterpillar, the employees had to accept a 6 year pay freeze and a pension freeze. In the case of Con Edison, the CEO actually locked the employees out and immediately cancelled their health care coverage!
If you ask CEO's why they feel the need to take things away from workers they will tell you they need to compete in a global marketplace where a worker in China is willing to do the job for $5 a day but he won't tell you that there are safety nets needed outside that building in China to stop those same slave workers from commiting suicide. The CEO also won't tell you that in other countries like Japan, a CEO only makes 15x the salary of an average worker, while here in the USA, because of the incestuous board of directors/CEO relationship, the CEO may make 300x what an average worker makes!

The banksters have been bending the public over for many years but, still not satisfied with their outrageous profits, they came up with some really risky financial products that nearly bankrupted the whole country a few years ago and required us taxpayers to bail them out. Let me ask you, has anybody gone to jail for that? Not only did almost nobody go to jail, but they didn't even lose their jobs and they kept their million dollar bonuses too! Let me also ask you, did anyone learn a lesson from it or are they still doing the same exact things?

The Republican candidate for president was Mitt Romney, who claimed to be a great businessman, The truth is, as Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry correctly pointed out, that Mitt was a just a corporate raider who had no problem loading companies with debt, paying Bain outrageous fees, busting the company, and then stealing pension fund money and other assets. To top it off, the guy has Swiss and Cayman Island bank accounts to shelter income and he refused to even release his tax returns.

You'd think after the drubbing they got in the last election the Republicans would get the idea that they need to stop being the paid lapdogs of corporations and billionaires and try representing the masses, but it doesn't look like they got the message.

The democrats budged, republicans in the senate budged, the house republicans do not wish to budge, and I sure as heck democrats in the house do not budge and insist on voting on the bill as is with no amendments. At this point we should just let the house republicans take us to sequestration, all taxes will go up and screw that for them, military spending will be cut and screw that for them, millions will lose unemployment benefits, children will go hungry, more people just barely hanging on will lose their homes, the hospitals, and food banks will be overflowing with charity cases. Tell them to vote for the bill as is or just bring on the pain, the small business owners they claim they care about will be devastated, they want cuts, go off the cliff and give them the cuts big time, and give them the tax increases they don't want for 100% of the nation at rate increases far above what the deal passed by the senate called for. The republicans will take all the political heat and nobody will hurt more than 9 of the top 10 welfare states that vote solidly republican. Bring on the sequestration, give them what they want but no amendments, give them the whole nine yards, as soon as they get what they want, they won't want it for long. If they want to commit political suicide and wreck the nation force them to just that, no amendments they vote on the proposal as is and take responsibility for the results. They want to fight to the death, lets have it, until we do this this the tail will wag the dog, democrats and a few republicans can get this passed, and if they can't then let republicans in the house raise taxes on ever body, and cut the military, and put the hurt on the nation, put the whole thing on their shoulders, lets see if they really want that. The good news is if we go to sequestration and taxes are raised across the board, big time they can finally wipe their asses with their pledge to Grover, they can never again claim they give a damn about the middle class, they can never again claim they give a damn about small business, or big defense contractors for that matter. The loss of wealth that will likely occur in the markets will be on their heads as well. For it once and for all, make them take this stand or vote for the bill as is, if you don't do it now you will have to put up with this for two more years until they are sent packing in 2014 which they certainly will in spite of Gerrymandering if you they bring us to sequestration. Up or down vote, that's the only way to deal with these people, and if you did that I'll bet you could not pound a straight pin up most house republicans ass with a sledge hammer, in spite of the rhetoric we are so tired of hearing from them. Sick and tired of the finger poking and posturing it's time to invite some people out to the parking lot and roll around in the dirt, and just fight this one out, either they get their ass knocked out or the nation does but lets do this.

When will Boehner stop letting Cantor and Taliban republicans lead him around on a leash ? Boehner said if the Senate passed legislation he would direct the House to vote to approve or amend the bill..........Well, there has been no vote of any kind in the House............and Boehner has not yet figured out that Cantor and his small band of Taliban republicans keep tripping him up in hopes he will lose his Speaker post to Cantor.

If Boehner had any smarts he would let democrats band with moderate House republicans to overrule Cantor and his Christian Crusaders.

The House is supposed to initiate these things. They could not and asked the Senate to do their job for them. The Senate got it done. Now the do nothing house is unhappy with what the Senate has done? Too bad. Pass this tax bill and move on to the next job, cutting the bloated Military/Industrial Complex budget.

House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy's (R-Calif.) vote-counting operation is kicking into full gear on Tuesday night — after the country has officially gone off the cliff — to gauge whether 218 Republicans would support amending the Senate bill with a package of spending cuts.

If there aren't enough House Republicans who vote to tack on spending cuts, the House will hold an up-or-down vote on the Senate cliff bill that hikes tax rates on income over $450,000.

But an amendment is not expected garner 218 Republicans and the Senate bill will likely come up for a vote on Tuesday evening. If that passes, the Senate bill would likely pass the House — with the heavy help of House Democrats — paving the way for the cliff deal to become law, as President Barack Obama has said he would sign it.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/senate-clears-fiscal-cliff-deal-89-8-85640.html?hp=f1

Ever wonder what things can be cut from our government budget? Why pay full health care for millionaires and their families when they have plenty of money to pay for their own premium health care? But we do, our tax dollars go to pay for full medical coverage for all of these millionaires and their families in Washington. Isn't it nice to know that families who can barely feed their own families pay for millionaire's full health care? Why didn't I get into politics so I could be one of these free-loaders, loafing around in Congress, coming into work two or three days a week for a few hours and suddenly deciding I need a month or two long vacation paid for by the American people. It would be so sweet to get my $5400 pay raise each year and go to meetings in Hawaii or Vegas and other resort-like places every few months.

2014 will see Cantor and the rest of his Tea-partiers saying goodbye to their luxurious house seats, and they'll probably be taking the Bonehead with them. Yes, more spending cuts need to be made and I have a suggestion (which isn't new really) cut foreign aid to Israel, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakitstan, Iraq, and any other country that is either anti-US or not carrying their full load in assisting us in fight against Al qaeda, and Taliban. The Repubs want to cut Soc. Sec. and medicare as well as Veterans benefits instead.

Orb

Apparently the Republicans in the Senate caved. What I heard the other day was a republican state that Obama won. That is what the bill is. Everything Obama wanted and as a result unlikely to pass in the house.

As saxon provided earlier in here it really is a bill that increases taxes and actually increases spending beyond what is. So much for cutting the deficit. So much for fiscal responsibility. Don't worry it's all the republicans fault.

Seen it a about now and heard it all about now.

Hee hee, here comes the vote. Good to put something behind...assuming they can count votes properly.

God willing, we survive the next two years of this GOP bull@!$%#, and the GOP, and the TeaBagger reps in the house are voted out, this Great country will move forward again! Boehner, McConnell, Cantor, take a hike. This last two years have been a total debacle, their only goal was to make the POTUS a one termer, no they failed and still continue to sicken me. Bend over Grover, here comes some Koch!

Bone head and Can't her..will not do it..What else is new?

Yea Fiesty is here.

Please tell us why it is that the House passed a Bill back in May, Seven Months ago, and the Senate has done nothing until the 11th hour to deal with it?

Tell us why it is good for the Country that bills are put off until the last second, then rushed through at the last moment, always to avert some "crisis" that was of their own making?

Very sad...The Senate does not do what is right for Americans and the liberals on here support it 100%.

They apparently can not tell how bad our finances are. There is plenty of opportunity to cut waste and spending in govt without cutting Soc Sec at this point, but govt won't do it.

Why should they cut spending? 50% of the nation is dumb enough to want higher taxes to pay for wasteful out-of-control spending.

Hey liberals....Give me $1000 of your money. I bet I can spend it all and give you just as much "value" as the govt would give you....nothing.

The obstructionist Cantor is moving forward with his planned coup of Boehner. We thought it was bad with Boehner as speaker, wait until the obstructionist Cantor moves up to this position.

Remember, Cantor was part of that group on January 20, 2009, meeting with 12 other republicans, Paul Ryan being one of them, more or less taking an oath to obstruct anything President Obama tried to do.

The Cantor coup is in motion, Thursday 01/01/13 is going to be interesting in the republican congress.

Talking about all this "cliff" stuff, and how the republicans want's to put more money in the 1%ers pockets made me drag out a book of mine to glance over again:

"Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)

Free Lunch answers the great mystery of our time: How did our strong and growing economy give way to job uncertainty, debt, bankruptcy, and fear for millions of Americans? Acclaimed reporter David Cay Johnston reveals how government policies and spending have reached deep into the wallets of the many to benefit the top 1% of the wealthiest.

Johnston, a New York Times investigative reporter, has spent his 40-year career exposing collusion between government officials and private sector entities as they enrich the rich and ignore consequences for middle-class laborers and the poor. In Perfectly Legal, he focused on hidden inequities in the tax system. This volume is a broader examination of collusion and unfairness, ranging from subsidies for professional sports stadiums to secret payouts to multinational corporate chief executives. At the base of Johnston's journalistic indictment are the highly paid lobbyists working Congress, state legislatures, county commissions, city councils and government regulatory agencies. Johnston also cites the culpability of George W. Bush in his roles as professional baseball team owner, Texas governor and U.S. president, and targets well-known tycoons such as Donald Trump, Warren Buffett and George Steinbrenner as well as lesser-recognized beneficiaries who own golf courses and insurance companies and energy consortiums. Heroes appear occasionally, such as Remy Welling, an Internal Revenue Service investigator who blew the whistle on improper tax breaks for the wealthy and lost her job.

The author has written a well-documented and detailed account of how less than 1% of Americans are getting rich of the backs of the other 99%. And, it isn't just individuals who are reaping millions of dollars from taxpayers...it's also corporations

.

I know most of you won't like this book, after all it was published on December 30, 2008, at the end of your beloved George W. Bush's administration, and played a major role in the financial downfall America suffered at the beginning of President Obama's administration.

The Republican Party is shooting itself in the foot and the American people, in the back! We will not forget!

dr821- "the media will crucify the Republicans and the House with the blame game"

Yes they certainly will, and they will deserve every bit of it. They already are the least productive Congress in over 75 years, they have the lowest approval rating ever recorded, and yet they have the gall to claim they are doing what the country sent them there to do. They can only win house seats, in heavily Gerrymandered districts and have destroyed the republican party on a national basis. You bet they will be crucified, and they deserve to be. People that have been republican all their lives can't even stand them you cannot get the lowest approval ratings ever recorded just based on the democrats opinions, they will be crucified, and they deserve that.

The Senate bill has passed with overwhelming bi-partisan support. But of course the republican led house which has the lowest approval rating in the history of our country is once again asleep at the wheel. Jon Huntsman called out his own party and said it perfectly - "The Republican party is filled with people without souls"! I couldn't have said it better Jon.

Someone please give feisty a very long long rope

If republicans are so concerned with overspending, why don't they consider cutting defense spending? Why would they rather stick it to granny, the jobless, the sick and the poor? Is it because they have investments in defense, but not in the poor? If there's anything I've learned from these negotiations, it's how incredibly selfish and greedy republicans truly are. They would protect their own self-interests at the expense of the economy. For shame!

MoonWolf99

If republicans are so concerned with overspending, why don't they consider cutting defense spending?

Because most of the people, companies, and lobbyists who control them are in the defense business. Cutting defense spending, and not having a war someplace to fight, puts a dent in their bottom line. Well, not really, they are just greedy, wanting more, and more, and more, while granny, the jobless, the sick, and the poor, can all go to hell as far as they are concerned!

Is the right thing to keep spending money we don't have and pass the bill onto future generations ? Spending cuts should be bipartisan too. Defense and entitlements. The first cuts should be entitlements to the rich. I am not any happier about Bush's spending than Obama's.

Did ANYONE watch any of the videos of the comments given about this deal ? Apparently NOT !!! It was made VERY CLEAR by Mitch McConnell that CUTS were NOT going to be included in this bill... INTENTIONALLY. What they worked out was all of the TAX ISSUES because those are the things that were going to be effected IMMEDIATELY. They ALL agreed to tackle the TAX issues and pass that bill FIRST , then deal with CUTS in steps at a later date. WTF is wrong w/you people ? Everyone's having a damned hissy fit yapping about things that were NOT SUPPOSED TO BE INCLUDED IN THIS BILL AT THIS TIME.

WATCH AND PAY ATTENTION !!! This bill is STRICTLY dealing with TAX ISSUES ONLY !!!
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/cnbc/50332497#50332497

Lets see this over-all. House is 535 members..they are all still in DC area..New Years day time..party galore in DC away from family is heart breaking to family..but not to them..hookers galore in DC and whatever you like to get high on. Welcome new reps to WASHINGTON DC!

Do you honestly think that those in power will vote a tax raise... on themselves? LOL!

What is the right thing to do? Cut Social Security, Medicare and Veteran benefits while only taxing the wealthy 1% or less in hopes of them creating jobs in the USA and making the middle class pick up the bill? The wealthy would just do what they've done with 30 years of tax breaks, cut benefits and pensions for employees, send jobs to China and give themselves pats on the back along with enormous bonuses. Or should we dump minimum wage so employers can pay their employees what they think they are worth (like 50 cents and hour)? Or should we fund another war at the expense of American health care and education? We could build up a massive military when the rules have changed and it is less likely that our troops will face regular armies and be more likely to face extremists and loosely organized militants? These are all things the Republican party has suggested in their bills over the past 5 years.

Gemini

The history is that the cuts won't come. Learn from history. It is a lot kinder to those who learn from it than from those who ignore it and are punished again, and again, and again, and again,....

The only real leverage the republicans have are no votes on revenue increases and raising the debt ceiling. They just gave one away for for free.

Think Lucy holding the foot ball for Charlie Brown. She always pulls the ball away at the last second.

What is there about the truth that the conservative fascist don't understand?

We can name the things. Global warming/Climate Change is real? The stimulus did work/we are not in a depression yet? (Yet because the present day shenanigans may put us in one yet) Obama is a Muslim? That isn't what Nancy Pelosi said? The birthers/Benghazi is real? That the problem really isn't a spending problem the problem is their spending? Call a democrat a tax and spend and hide your self's as a borrow and spend unless there is a democratic president then it is your children's future? If you worried about your children's future, maybe you should think about *see number one. I am going to tell you right now, this is a democratic trap and you fell right into it. The voters in this country told you that Obama's way is the way they want to go. Two months ago. They haven't changed their mind. Sooner or later you rights will pay for this, and as they say in Toad Holler, you haven't seen nuttin' yet.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation!

Nailed it. We have a SPENDING problem, NOT a revenue problem. When the freeloaders begin to outnumber the producers, this results in an uneven balance sheet. PERIOD. Good post.

The history is that the cuts won't come.

Of course not. Too many people on the doles. That's why we'll NEVER get rid of this debt. And the producers will soon leave this Country in droves. What's going to happen to the freeloaders when that happens - care to take a guess??

Yes, we need spending cuts. Places to go prior to supposed entitlements. That said, the process is broken. Why do we all have our backs against the wall at the last minute? Those of us in business know that if we operated this way, either our company or we would be gone. Do any of you run our households this way?

@ Richard H:

Pigotry is agood name for those people. I am on Disability pay with three fusions, a steel plate, and 6 screws in my spine. I get 30, 000 minus 214 a month for medical. Watching O'Reily he called all 30, 000 and under people worthless and nothing! I would really love to kick his ass all the way down the street. Boehner and Cantor do not live in a world of reality. Hell if I made 400, 000 a year I would glady give 40% it would leave me with a paltry 240,000 a year which would do nicely. I really do not understand exactly what these people feel they are so oppressed with. The term for the people does not meananything in DC they should fire everyone of them every two until they get people in there who actually serve the people and not the big rich fat cats. The people are getting angry about all of this and I am afraid we are heading for civil war eventually. I for the life of cannot understand why any working stiff can have any similar feelings with these people. All they do is screw them. AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your statement is what is wrong with a lot of people in our country. First of all, consider yourself lucky. As little as 70 some years ago, you wouldn't be getting the disability you are now. $30,000 is a lot for someone not working. And your medical deduction - well who should pay that if not you? Should your neighbor? Maybe he can work an extra 10 hours a week to pay for your medical uhh??

And you are a liar to say Bill O'Reilly called people making under $30,000 worthless and nothing! If you can prove it - give it a try.

And if you made $400,000 and would gladly give up 40% of that - well, good for you! And I guess that's pretty easy for you to say in your position. And even if it were true, that does not mean you have the right to take from others that have earned it just because you aren't making what they are. If we all felt like you did, I guess there would be no reason for people to attain to financial success if it was going to be taken away by people like you - who they are already paying for. We could all just sit around and complain about what we don't have and decide we should take it away from people who do have. After all, you're entitled, aren't you??!!

But, I do believe everyone should be paying their fair share. And the only form of fair taxation is proportionately equal taxation. So . . . flat tax it should be, whether you are making $400,000 a year or $30,000 on disability. No write-off's, no loopholes, nothing. Just a flat tax. Then everyone is paying their fair share. Heck, you're making more than people making $10,000 a year more than you as disability is not taxed like regular income - is that fair???? Gee, I don't think so.

There is no joy in Muddville, the tea bags in Congress has struck out.

@ Hopeful American

Your statement is what is wrong with a lot of people in our country. First of all, consider yourself lucky. As little as 70 some years ago, you wouldn't be getting the disability you are now. $30,000 is a lot for someone not working.

70 years ago? Pssssst...fast forward dude, it's 2013.

three fusions, a steel plate, and 6 screws in my spine.

And you tell him, =consider yourself lucky=, what kind of bull@!$%# is that! So if you're injured like this guy on a job, working, and your employer has "disability/workmens comprehension" insurance, the injured shouldn't get paid? You can't be serious!

DB Akron

The history is that the cuts won't come. Learn from history. It is a lot kinder to those who learn from it than from those who ignore it and are punished again, and again, and again, and again,....

That depends if it's real history or the alternative universe history the rightwing tries to rewrite. The real history shows that demand-side Keynesian economics works, and supply-side Voodoo economics does not, that the Dems tax and spend to balance budgets, and the Republicans just spend, spend, spend. Learn from real history.

And the Teapublicans in the house who ignore "the people's will" should be punished again, and again, until they stop with their ignorant and destructive political games. While I'm glad to see the Norquist pledge broken, it is obvious the rightwing has yet to learn anything.

David Noah, I agree, why SHOULD the President write a bill; it is not his job. On the other hand, why should the House pass this bill? Well, because they abdicated their responsibility and said that the Senate and President should get it done. The President and Senate did, so now what? SOMEBODY has to be the grown up. In this case, apparently, President Obama.

@ Pigotry:

Republicans...do the right thing. Put your country first...even if those on the dole will oppose you in Nov'14 (they already will)! Amend it with the spending cuts that should be there and send it back up! Your job is to serve the for the good of our country.

Hopeful American, up yours, I am retired and love it. I worked all the years I could and then it was disability until I reached retirement age. I did all I could, I worked, I paid my taxes, I paid for your grand father so they could enjoy a good retirement. It is you that is wrong, it is your turn to pay for me. Stop being a scab and bone up. Pay. By the way the flat tax is punitive to low income people. But rich azzes like you think its fair. It isn't. The only fair tax is the progressive income tax because it allows you to contribute more because you make more. Here is the thing, the more you make, the more you pay, but you still made more. The only way you will figure that out is if you ever worked overtime and calculated your take home pay.

Just vote darn it! We don't want to hear another word out of these right wing Nazi's!!!! Keep suckling to the rich and say goodbye, farewell, auf weidersehen, A du!

Feisty, I am quite sure senate repulibcans were aware that this was the best deal they could get out of the dems. The tax hikes are taken care of, now they are relying on the house to bounce it back with the necessary cuts. Whether you like to admit it or not cuts are necessary. Simply ignoring that fact is not going to make it go away. Lets face it this thing is not going to fly without both the tax hikes the democrats want and the cuts that the repulicans want. That is a compromise and that is what is needed right now, not a bunch of bi-partisan bickering.

News flash, the house is about to take a vote and NBC is broadcasting it on their web site. Better be thinking Cantor. One slip up here could cost your your capital?

@ Moshulu:

He is lucky! There was a time, not that long ago, there was no disability insurance. Just how much should he be getting? Hell, he's getting a lot more than a lot of people in this country earn working 40 hours a week.

And how do you know he got hurt on the job? And why does that matter? Shi* happens in life. Unfortunately someone has to pay the tab when someone else can't or won't. Just how much should his fellow American pay for him? Yes, he's lucky. He's lucky there is a system in place to help him.

@ Johntho:

Yeah, I'll bet you did all you could do! And just because you are on the bottom rung of the ladder doesn't give you the right to take from the top rung. Flat tax is fair. Progressive tax is bullshi* - just another way for those of you to pay less than your fair share!

By the way, I'm not rich - and I certainly don't think those with more should give me what they earned. Unfortunately for our country, people like you do!

I think it's time for everyone to relax and join me in that old negroe classic"the old kentuckey home"

Those of you who are rich or unemployed can sit on the porch, sip mint julips and crack your whips softly in time.

Ready? 1 and a 2 and a 3..well the sun shines brite on the old obamie phone and the food stamps gro on dee trees..come on everybody!! Slavery it's just not for black people anymore!!

The plan sent from the Senate is.....IDIOTIC!!!!

It will not do anything but kick the can alittle more down the road...pure political B/S

Pigotry:

Republicans...do the right thing. Put your country first..even if your rich donors will oppose you in Nov'14, voters will appreciate and support you no matter what. Your job is to serve the public, put your country first. Do it..do the right things.

Happy New Year, Republicans. Good luck and goo night.

Yes, do the right thing and vote "No". This is a bad deal for the USA Federal Tax Payer.

iowaretiree

Republicans do the right thing and vote it down, if Obama can afford to give out raises then a tax increase isn't needed!!!

So you'd f*ck over the 1.8 million Federal workers who get also that raise, just to spite less than 600 politicians? Typical Con.

So it appears that the Corporate Lapdog Media's agreed- upon lie of the week is that "intractability fueled by sharp, ideological flanks in both parties" is to blame for this being the least- productive and most- reviled and universally damned House in our history.

Uh, wait just a Goddamned minute. Both parties? How do they figure that?

Is it extremism to swear an oath to an unelected, private citizen, who is accountable to nobody, to never, ever support tax increases, no matter what the nation's needs dictate?

Is it an excess of zealotry to deny the President an increase in the debt limit just to make him look bad, regardless of the implications for worldwide investor confidence in American stability, to say nothing of the very real (and now a matter of record) consequences to our credit rating?

Is it possibly inimical to the normal conduct of our government to repeatedly attack the legitimacy of the President by saying that he is not a citizen, among other hateful, infamous and debunked lies?

Could it be considered disloyal to go abroad and denounce the legitimacy of this Administration to our Allies, attempting to sow discord and mistrust in those nation with whom steady, trusting relations are vital to the security of all?

In all my years of watching American politics (since 1970, give or take), I have never before witnessed, or even imagined, the spectacle of a Republican- dominated House determinedly trying to undermine the economy, the fiscal status, and the security and safety of the United States, in order to bring about the downfall of a President elected by huge electoral and popular margins.

I would never have thought it possible, before 2009, that so many elected officials would deny and violate their oaths of office by putting the petty financial gains of their oligarchic masters above the well- being of the nation.

The Republican members of this Congress are traitors to America, in spirit if not in letter, and all Republican voters are accessories to that treason. You will never be forgotten or forgiven for the damage you have inflicted on our beloved country in order to enrich the wealthy.

Just exactly who/what are the freeloaders? Please answer with some reliable statistics included. As it stands this business of the FREELOADERS are an undefined bunch of people who ever they are.

Do you include the oil companies/barons who get tax breaks from this country, regardless of their billion dollar profit margins, freeloaders? I think they are. They do not NEED help from the govt., yet they get it, AND TAKE IT, anyway.

Just exactly who are the freeloaders?

Mr. Warden-2811265:

Slavery it's just not for black people anymore!!

When was it only for the Negro Race? I strongly suggest you do some research on the subject. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is laughable.

@Hopeful American...

If Richard H. is receiving $30,000/year - $2,568/yr. medical payment (thus $27,432/year disability net benefit), he obviously was working and paying into FICA before he became disabled, and is benefitting from that safety net that he paid into, with a promise of assistance if and when he needed it. I agree we are very fortunate to live in a country that has a Social Security system to assist those who become disabled, and those who retire, and that is why most of us do not complain about FICA withholdings, however, we do want to know the benefit will be there for us when our time of need comes.

The Social Security benefits system shows a compassionate country who wants to assist those who find themselves unable to support their basic needs. In recent years, more corporations have found ways to "restructure" through filing bankruptcy, etc., and eliminating promised pensions to their workers in the process. Thus, there are many people who rely on Social Security as their sole source of income in retirement, as well as the disabled. Instead of looking for ways to cut these benefits/increase out of pocket costs for medicare, etc. that would adversely affect these past workers, we should look to increase solvency of this fund, and find other ways to increase revenue and make the necessary cuts to our budget. I think that is the point that Richard H. was trying to make.

We do not want to cut spending only to increase poverty in this country. That would be going backwards. I think some of the republican spokespeople make disabled people feel unvalued and like they are the problem...with all the comments about Obama being voted in because he is "Santa Claus" to all the freeloaders, and "half the country doesn't want to work", etc. It makes a difficult situation more humiliating when a person is made to feel like they are a "drain on society" and the cause of Washington's budget crisis, and so try to understand Richard's comment in that context. No one wants to become disabled...and seriously most people would not choose to become elderly and no longer able to work either, but we all will...and I think we all want to feel secure in knowing we will be able to afford our basic needs at that time, regardless of what may happen to our pension or gutted 401K.

HOTTICKET-2304234

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation!

Nailed it. We have a SPENDING problem, NOT a revenue problem. When the freeloaders begin to outnumber the producers, this results in an uneven balance sheet. PERIOD. Good post.

The history is that the cuts won't come.

Of course not. Too many people on the doles. That's why we'll NEVER get rid of this debt. And the producers will soon leave this Country in droves. What's going to happen to the freeloaders when that happens - care to take a guess??

----------------------------------------

I'm tempted just to say STFU and go back to The Blaze, because the above drivel is such garbage. But we sure don't want the casual reader to think this is a mainstream view. It is the very ignorance behind Romney's comment about the 47% that sealed his fate.

First you start off with fallacious "bumper sticker" rhetoric about spending and revenue. I can't believe anyone still says this sh!t. We know revenue needs to be above 18% of GDP, closer to 20%, and visa versa with spending. There is no one or the other, but BOTH to the equation.

Then the half of freeloaders, or 47% crap. If we do a little more math and subtract all the dependent children and stay home mothers, all the seniors who are retired, the disabled, the military, etc. you are left with the working class who earn so little their tax credits (the same damn tax credits you cherish and won't give up) are why they pay little or no federal income tax.

And these folks earn so little because they work for douchebags like the Walton Family at Walmart. Costco pays their employees far more, because the owner and executive management aren't living in immense luxury like the Walton family. But you still shop at Walmart because by golly you gotta save those few pennies for yourself.

But you aren't saving anything, because you subsidize Walmart with your taxes for foodstamps and Medicaid to help their underpaid employees make ends meet. Instead of having empathy for the working poor, how dare anyone attack the "job creators" like the Waltons. How dare anyone ask the rich to pay their fair share in taxes, because the Waltons are successful, and like Romney we should bow down and worship them.

If the working poor outnumber the "producers" it's because wealth has been accumulating at the top 1% for the last 30-40 years, while wages for everyone else has been stagnant/declining. As for the rich moving their money or jobs elsewhere, what's new? I can tell you this, the rich won't leave the US, because it's still the best place to live even after the carnage they wreak upon the rest of us.

What we need are good paying jobs. The Teapublicans have blocked so many good bills, such as the Bring Jobs Home Act. Shut off FAUX Noise and Hate Radio. I recommend you read "Who Stole the American Dream" and then get back with us.

TruePatriot-4455:

That depends if it's real history or the alternative universe history the rightwing tries to rewrite. The real history shows that demand-side Keynesian economics works, and supply-side Voodoo economics does not, that the Dems tax and spend to balance budgets, and the Republicans just spend, spend, spend. Learn from real history.

No true! The USA has had a "Supply Side Economy" since before the country was founded and it has worked well. Keynes himself acknowledged this theory could not work over the long-term. Please provide proof his theory works.

Sialia-

Just exactly who are the freeloaders?

Just look around the House, Senate and White House.....they are all over that area

The fact that they are profitable, healthy companies did not stop the CEO's from trying to take away the employees pensions and reducing other important benefits in the most recent contract negotiations.. In the case of Caterpillar, the employees had to accept a 6 year pay freeze and a pension freeze.

I can definitely understand why these employees would be upset, but I'm sorry-things are tough all over. My spouse was laid off despite being head of the top producing team in his company and with his team never missing a date in its entire existence-in fact, the whole TEAM was laid off. My spouse had been promised a job in another part of the country despite the team being laid off, but that option was withdrawn a month before we were supposed to move-after the company moving van had called about picking up our things, in fact. Some of the engineers cried when they said goodbye-these were engineers, mind you-the team had been together for quite a while and was pretty close. At an earlier time with that company, immediately after receiving the highest possible rating on a performance review, my spouse had been demoted. He was out of work for a year after the layoff and spent 40+ hours a week looking for a job, and he now has a new job in a lesser position that pays less; however, we are darned happy to have it, despite a pay freeze and no pension.

I'm not saying you alway have to just accept it when things are unfair, but sometimes things are not good for workers in a bad economy. Nor am I against unions or anything like that-though we certainly didn't have that option. People are not automatically entitled to perfect jobs. Earlier generations and immigrants have worked hard, sometimes at lousy jobs or more than one job, to get ahead-and sometimes that's what it takes. We are pretty pampered if we think our jobs are always going to be exactly like we want them to be or if we expect that we will always be able to work in our dream job. That's just not reality. Maybe it was for a period of time during a period of prosperity in this country, but it's not now with the economy the way it is now-and you really can't blame it on one political party. We've all played a part in it with our spending more than we have both individually and as a nation, our desire to have everything and to have it NOW, and doing everything on credit. It simply can't last. Eventually you have to pay the bill, and that's the place we are going to be. That's part of the posturing with this whole fiscal cliff issue, or it seems to me (also because of its potential effect on the economy)-eventually you can't borrow any more money from your creditors, eventually they say it's enough and they may come after you even if you are the richest person or the richest country on earth. That's why it's not enough just to earn more money (raise taxes.) I'm fine with raising taxes, BTW, but that adds just a drop in the bucket compared to the size of the deficit. You also have to cut spending-you need to stop using your credit cards when you are maxed out on all of them. And the U.S. is getting pretty close to maxed out, from what I can see.

You have to be careful what you cut, of course-just as you would in an individual household. You don't cut the kids' food or medicine! You cut out waste like maybe extra dinners out or a gym membership you don't use or even vacations. If we were to cut the budget, we would need to cut waste first (I feel sure there is plenty of that, and surely most of you would agree with me.) Like the funds to study whether or not riding with someone in a car for several hours makes you more irritable towards them or some other ridiculous research project you read about. You guys know what I mean. Start there and move down.

Having said all that, I believe it's ridiculous that this is coming out now at the 11th hour. I hope we don't go over the fiscal cliff. However, the House is kind of in a bind-either pass this or look like jerks. If it had been up to me, they ALL would have stayed over Christmas and not left at all until they had a deal.

most people relate slavery in america with back people. this is an american issue i was just trying to save time.

John Boehner will go down in history as one of the most ineffective, and weakest Speakers to ever hold the Gavel. This poor bastard is so far in over his head it's pathetic, last year during the debt ceiling fiasco hoe proved he can't speak for house, then he floats plan "b" and his members hang him out to dry. Last week he publicly threw in the towel and admitted he could do nothing and begged the president and the senate to bail him out. He said the senate must resolve this I am herding cats over here in house, please senate give me a lifeline, you must produce the deal. The senate produced that deal with damn near unanimous approval, when have you seen those kinds of numbers from the senate in the last 4 years, and once again the speaker does not even have the balls to bring it to an up or down vote in the house, talk about moving the goal posts, talk about ineffective leadership, talk about an empty suit, poor John Boehner, he could be replaced with a 16 year old Eagle Scout, and the nation would be served with better leadership. You got what you asked for Jfrom the senate John now put it up for an up or down vote in the house. You can't even carry Nancy Pelosi's purse as a speaker of the house, you are a laughing stock and a national disgrace, so just what is it you think you have to lose at this point.

@ KJR:

Actually, Richard is receiving $30,000 a year. His medical bill is the same as any bill you or I pay out of our income. If someone makes $60,000 a year, they don't say they make $20,000 a year because $40,000 is what they pay in bills.

And the way to feel secure about your future is to make your own future. Live your life within your means. Save money for your retirement. Start slowly changing Social Security. Start slowly eliminating the FICA tax. This would take years, but individuals should be able and responsible to make their own choices on how they want to save and invest THEIR dollars. Social Security was never meant for people to live on it for as long as 20 or 25 years. When it was created, life expectancy was shorter than it is today. Social Security retirement has not kept up with this fact.

The reality is that a lot of people are a drain on our society. Some because they truly can't help it, and they need to be helped. But some are because they choose to be, because it is easier than working for it! Enabling people is not a good answer.

Johntho

News flash, the house is about to take a vote and NBC is broadcasting it on their web site. Better be thinking Cantor. One slip up here could cost you your capital?

Good point. The idiocy has been going on for a long time, most recently Boehner's inability to pass his "Plan B" because of Cantor and the TeaTard Caucus. They are shameless and/or that stupid.

FoxTrotsky -- Good to see you. Excellent post.

Homer Adams -- Because you say so? Supply-side is Voodoo economics, even Bush Sr. knows that. Demand is what drives the economy, demand from a viable middle class. Not top down -- doesn't work.

Mr. Warden-2811265 -- I knew what you meant.

Let's hope 2013 will be a very good year despite the ongoing shenanigans from Teapublicans.

Who are we kidding, besides ourselves? This has been planned since there was a "cliff" invented by the marketing geniuses, so both sides can beat their chests like a bunch of banty roosters and claim "I (my side) saved you all!" And we sit here like a bunch of puppies thanking our masters for a little treat (probably made in China).

@ Hopeful American

He is lucky! There was a time, not that long ago, there was no disability insurance.

Lucky in the financial part, not really, $30k is not that much.

And that's why I said fast forward dude, it's 2013, doesn't matter what USED to happen.

Just how much should he be getting?

Whatever his policy says he should get....that would make sense, correct?

Hell, he's getting a lot more than a lot of people in this country earn working 40 hours a week.

OK, and your point to that is what, are you a part of those people who work 40 hours a week and don't make that much? He's injured, insurance pays for it, good for him!

And how do you know he got hurt on the job? And why does that matter? Shi* happens in life.

You're correct, it doesn't matter how he got hurt, but you make it seem it wasn't job related, you know, crying the "entitlement game" for him.

Unfortunately someone has to pay the tab when someone else can't or won't.

You said it above, @!$%# happens!

Just how much should his fellow American pay for him?

Again, whatever the going rate is for his particular disability!!

Yes, he's lucky. He's lucky there is a system in place to help him.

You seem angry at this guy because he's being taken care of for what amounts to great injury to his body. Your quote of "he's lucky" came after his medical condition. If you call all his medical condition "lucky," in my book that doesn't say much about what you think of people.

I'm Retired Army Infantry after 34+ years, on a disability pension, I guess I'm lucky too, but, believe it or not, some people can't stand the fact they are paying my retirement, and I love it.

I'm like our politicians, you know, the millionaire ones, who really don't need that social security check, or government retirement check, but they take it anyhow, so why shouldn't I? At 64 y/o I've made some very GOOD financial investments that can support me and my family quite well, but hey, you owe me my pension for 34+ years, that's what you said when I signed up, so that's what I expect.

And I do pay taxes.

Quit being so angry at your fellow Americans, expecially those that are disabled!

If they don't vote yes, vote them out of office!

@Hopeful American...

Actually, my medical insurance, like many people's, is provided by employer and is of no cost to me, except for my own co-pays, etc. when I go for medical care. The disabled who receive SS disability benefits pay a monthly payment for their Medicare that comes out of their check before they ever receive the benefit. So, actually, it is not as you say. The amount Richard receives (if his disability benefit works like others on SS disability and retirement benefits) is the amount he stated minus the medical payment, before he ever receives the money.

That said, I think most of us have seen enough regarding how 401K plans disappear, retirement plans are taken away, and how tough it is to save for the future when you are raising a family on $14/hour because your previous, well paying job just got taken to Mexico....And most of us are just smart enough to understand (and not so arrogant as to think we are bullet proof and will never find ourselves in a position of needing help), that the opportunity to pay into a fund a little at a time every week, for the security of knowing we will receive benefits to help support our basic needs in retirement or in the event of becoming disabled, is a good, positive, compassionate benefit this country offers, and should be preserved. Even if I never needed it, I am glad my neighbor who may need help, will have it. The "fend for yourself" mentality you seem to suggest doesn't say what happens when someone isn't able to?

So, what will happen next relative to the debt ceiling and sequestration cuts?

Something like this:

The Republicans will insist on spending cuts for lifting the debt ceiling. The President will say, "pound salt".

Then he'll say, "if you want to bring in the sequestration cuts, we can talk more. We'll agree on switches to the sequestration cuts from Defense and Discretionary programs ONLY if you (Republicans), at the same time, lift the debt ceiling for at least a year. If not, I'll let all the sequestration cuts stick." The President would prefer the changes to cuts but could live with them (as is) in a negotiation.

the only question is whether tax reform (a Grand Grand Bargain - subject to further revenue provisions and further future spending cuts) will be done at the same time (doubtful in 2 months?) or done later.

This bill is just another round of tax and spend. When will people wake up and come to grips with the fact we must cut spending. This is just another can kicking for two months. Business still cannot plan on anything but higher taxes. I would support my representative voting yes to at least get middle class relief. However this is going to cost the country and I would bet we will see another credit downgrade.

Kevin, we will see another credit downgrade ONLY if the Republicans don't raise the debt ceiling limit when that comes around. Remember last time? Republicans will get blamed for it again too.

It don't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Hopeful American: Your response to the individual receiving 30K a year on disability was a work of art. I agree with every point you made. I am fed up with the entitlement mentality, the person collecting the 30K is the epitome of "entitlement mentality". If you have made the right choices in life and have become successful and or wealthy others feel entitled to what you have worked for and that is bull@!$%# plain and simple. We can thank Obama and this administration for such flawed thinking. I look forward to reading more of your posts going forward. I guess there are a few of us left who still believe in hard work, becoming successful and deciding what we will do with OUR money. Hope you have a good night.

I don't care how you slice it, if they get the votes, this is a win for Boehner and Obama and Biden and McConnell and all of us. Now if they could deliberately drop a lot of the crap, get a consensus of who "the noise" Is, this could be a very positive step for both parties (I'm sorry, but, not very, the real tee-bats come out losers). Good heavens, progress.

No Deal........ If Republicans allow this catastrophe to pass they will be digging their own grave. Conservatives (like me) will leave the Republican Party if they can't have the kahunas to stand up for their own principles. I have already started the process of changing my Republican registration and will be registering in a third party.

If Republicans pass this catastrophic bill as it is then you will see a mutiny of those registered Republican to change their registration. I believe the Republican Party has already dug their own grave and are going the way of the Whig Party. In 20 years we will be talking about "remember when there was a Republican Party..........." but they collapsed because they claimed to be against tax increases but allowed tax increases on the job creators, they claimed to be against illegal immigration but then supported amnesty, they claimed to be for smaller limited government but allowed government expansion at every opportunity, and finally they claimed to be for the Constitution but I just don't see it anymore.

But if Republicans vote for this catastrophic bill they will have hammered the final nail in their coffin.

Pro Business,

Great, cause they just voted for it.

Compare the 1912 Elections with the 2012 Elections

By Ralph Nader

"…Taft, Wilson and Roosevelt fought over who was the most progressive. Theodore Roosevelt in an August 1912 speech declared that “Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.”…"

"…Fast forward to 2012….Entrepreneur, lawyer, shareholder advocate, and author, Robert A. Monks wrote recently that “American corporations today enjoy an absolute reign. They and they alone have the power to control the rules under which they function. Corporations, and the most powerful CEOs acting through them, have effectively seized authority over the United States without assuming any of the responsibilities of dominion.”

January 01, 2013 - Before the electoral year of 2012 slinks into history, it is worth a comparative glance back to the electoral year of 1912 to give us some jolting perspective on how degraded our contemporary elections, voter performance and election expectations have become.

One hundred years ago, workers were marching, picketing and forming unions. Eugene Debs, the great labor leader and presidential candidate that year, spoke to outdoor labor rallies of 100,000 to 200,000 workers and their families gathered to protest low wages and working conditions.

Farmers were flexing their muscle with vibrant political activity in progressive parties and organizing farm cooperatives, through their granges, and pushing for proper regulation of the banks and railroads.

On the presidential ballot were Republican incumbent William Howard Taft, Democrat Woodrow Wilson, and the Progressive “Bull Moose” Party’s choice former president Theodore Roosevelt. Taft would be repudiated for being far too populist and too critical of corporations by today’s Republican Party. He favored national, not state, charters for “national corporations.”

The Democrats were committed to their platform of 1908 which asked “Shall the people rule? Is the overshadowing issue which manifests itself in all the questions now under discussion.” The context was shaped by the giant corporations (“called the trusts”) and their lobbies in Washington, which had to be curbed. The Supreme Court in 1911 had just ruled to break up the giant Standard Oil trust.

Women’s suffrage, abolition of child labor, workers’ compensation; states adopting the initiative, referendum, and recall; the eight-hour work day, minimum wage laws (Massachusetts was the first in 1912), taxing corporate profits and the “inheritance of fortunes,” were some of the many hot issues of 1912…

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33492.htm

ProBusiness

I am not a Republican but am fiscally conservative. I think you may have it wrong. Although it did not have any cuts, it could be viewed as if the Republican Party crafted the bill. In theory, tax and spend is over forever. Since they cannot "ever" raise taxes again, they will have no choice but to live within their means or deal with watching the country burn.

Gonna be a lot of pissed nabobs. Happy new year you ungrateful sons-ah-bitches. Remember too, It's always better to be pissed off than pissed on.

KUDOS

(R)

TOM COLE

BOO to Eric Cantor

But wait, The Republicans will again hold America hostage at the very next opportunity, the debt ceiling.

Big deal the overpaid procrastinators finally partially did their job and we should cheer for them. Now instead of voting to raise the borrowing limit they need to vote themselves a pay and benefit cut, I won't say to what they are worth because I am sure none of them would show up for free.

I don't think so ED, as someone noted earlier (StC?) President Obama has vowed a response of 'pound sand'. I don't think there is going to be any negotiation over whether or not we pay the tab already authorized by Congress. They'll be spitting into the wind.

Yeah like the democrats are going to vote republican now.

All the Obama administration has done to POSTPONE the cliff for another few months..........

What "great" leadership..................

SECEDE..... time to divorce DC.........

G-Dog-787120

He wasn't referring to number 5 was he?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pound%20sand

Republicans did their part. They passed this bill in good faith.

Now we will see if Obama and Democrats are men of their words, or full of hot air and promises. We need to see the cuts. Concrete cuts in spending, the sooner the better.

Else, there is no way the Republicans should ever negotiate with Obama in good faith ever again. It is absurd that Republicans were put in the position of having to trust that Obama and Dems will do the right thing. Americans owe a debt of gratitude to the Republicans their their supporters.

Obama and Dems...please do NOT screw this up. We have a debt ceiling to deal with, gun legislation, immigration...gay marriage...failing to deliver on your promise here with concrete cuts, and you can forget any liberal agenda for the next 3 years.

There are over 30 million pages of government regulations. There is more than one government employee for every page. There are 4 Americans unemployed or under-employed for each 6 pages of regulations.

If the 30 million pages of regulations were to be reduced to 20 million pages, government would shrink by 1/3, and over 7 million currently unemployed or under-employed Americans would gain full employment. Tax revenue would increase at the same time costs decrease.

Unfortunately 3000 new regulations are being added each month, about 25 pages each on average. Government is growing at a rate of about 75 thousand a month, and employment is going in reverse about 200,000 a month.

republicans did their part? they tried every trick in the book to set America back and destroy the economy. can you say 'obstructionist". the overwhelming majority of america think that is the perfect word to describe republicans, even the republicans feel that way. lol just a few of the die hard trolls left to praise the GOP. The abyss opens wide for you.

Bye, Pro-Business. I'm sure there's another political party somewhere that will put up with your bile.

David Noah
The House of Representatives passed a bill in May of 2012, SEVEN MONTHS AGO to deal with the Sequestrations.

The House passed a bill to cancel cuts to military and instead cut Medicare and Medicaid. That's not a good thing. That's not a bill to "deal with the sequestrations", it's a bill to make them worse.

The Senate never would have passed that trash, and the President never would have signed it. Which can describe most of what the House has passed in the last two years, actually.

T-REX-847863
Republicans did their part. They passed this bill in good faith.

Now we will see if Obama and Democrats are men of their words, or full of hot air and promises. We need to see the cuts. Concrete cuts in spending, the sooner the better.

Else, there is no way the Republicans should ever negotiate with Obama in good faith ever again. It is absurd that Republicans were put in the position of having to trust that Obama and Dems will do the right thing. Americans owe a debt of gratitude to the Republicans their their supporters.

Obama and Dems...please do NOT screw this up. We have a debt ceiling to deal with, gun legislation, immigration...gay marriage...failing to deliver on your promise here with concrete cuts, and you can forget any liberal agenda for the next 3 years.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Republicans have ever negotiated in good faith with Obama? That's never once happened. And as for "the next 3 years"...try 2 years. The 2014 elections will not be kind to Republicans.

They all should be tarred and feathered, Reps and Dems alike.

Again the people are shown who the politicians work for..........The Rich. The Corporations. Wall Street.

Turns out President Obama is a liar.

Shame!

The fiscal cliff was nothing to worry about. The game as played is as scripted. Why fight over it. It is over and done, for now.

Dear Politicians,

Thanks you for making a political game of this and not solving anything. You had an opportunity to address real issues and offer valuable solutions but you chose instead to stand by ideology over pragmatism to gain a political upper hand. Thanks so much from all of us you supposedly represent.

Love,

Those funny little people you have to deal with every election cycle.

My grandma would be proud of this patchwork job. This is not a solution, it is simply a delay of the inevitable. The President got his tax increase on the rich, that’s fine, but sooner or later he will have to make some tough spending decisions and stop the gravy train. If the last 4 years are any guide, I don’t think he is up to it.

Sure, there are both Democratic and Republican leaders in Washington that are completely out of their minds. But that does not mean that there is an equivalency, because the right wing has practically all of the certified whackos. Just think, Eric Cantor and about 150 more of his tea party ilk were actually willing to torpedo the economy in order to keep Bush tax rates for the richest Americans. Mind boggling how anyone can defend this position, even if they are Fox News zombies. How can anyone possibly feel good about knowing that they actually voted for these idiots?

With the tea party's myopic focus focus on tax cuts, even for the wealthiest Americans, they failed to see the forest for the trees; they could have easily allowed taxes to go up on the wealthiest Americans (who could easily afford to contribute more) and then negotiated huge spending cuts - without holding the coutry hostage! But instead behaved like fools and got absolutely nada. This is what you get when you have representative bought and paid for by the likes of the Koch brothers.

The fiscal cliff situation has once again demonstrated that the tea party is caucus of clowns who are an impediment to anything good. Even if you're from a rigged Republican district, please wake up and throw these people out of office in 2014!

When 50% of the taxes collected go to the Federal Reserve bank to pay the interest on the money that they printed for us then this cliff thing happens.

What difference does it make how much they tax us, if they don't get enough money they will just raise the debt limit and have the federal reserve bank print them more money, in effect just back door taxing us by reducing the value of the money in our pockets. Read my lips "no new taxes", right just have the Fed print what ever they want. Central banking is the rout of financial enslavement of the world. Look at the euro, how many countries did it bankrupt? In what, about ten years?

So who cares about this dog and pony show, they did not do anything real: reduce spending and waste and they did not do anything about the basic issue of the privately held federal reserve bank printing our money and charging us interest for it (called the national debt). When half of the taxes collected go to the federal reserve there is just not much left for social programs. Then they must increase debt to run the government accelerating our downward spiral to financial slavery to the Fed. (The ones who are going to save us from this depression with their silver bullets, blah, blah, blah).

Hi john @1.132 - that's hilarious, I'd never heard of that before. I thought he meant it as in a time consuming and useless exercise - as in "up your rectum using a ball-peen hammer" (now that I think of it, I think he said 'pound salt').

How are you jack-n-apes any different then our goverment while you sit on your collective arses arguing instead of banding together to force the goverment to listen to their bosses, we, the american people? Stop bytching at each other on these senseless useless threads that do no effective good, get together and make the goverment work or look in the mirrior and call yourself whichever politician you seem to hate because that is exactly who we are as a people. If you like being the dumb mouth piece puppet of your party then stop commenting, however, if like me, you are sick of this bytch festival and want to see things change then get off the threads and create a forum where all your voices can work to change the country. I doubt any of you will desire this however over your 5 minutes want to be heard and seen as cool.

While Boehner tries to come to some kind of consensus to avoid the fiscal cliff and keep Americans and America going in a positive direction and save out credit rating, Cantor opposes the deal and vies for a better position to be able to replace Boehner as Speaker when he is ousted...once again republican hack Cantor places politics and ambition and personal greed for money and power above conducting the people's business and ensuring the jobs, healthcare and an equal shot at the American dream for 98% of Americans---the very people who employ him and pay his generous salary and benefits while so very very many are without.

You, Mr. Cantor, are a traitor and should be arrested and jailed....While Boehner has been exceedingly frustrating and disingenuous, at least he is cooperating to some degree at this time.........when will people stop voting into office people who do not know what they are doing, who do not have a clue what is going in the nation or how things work between cities, counties, states, the nation and the rest of the world?........when will people stop voting into office people who work for their major donor's?...if you vote you should at least take the responsibility to be aware of what the person you voted for is doing once they are in office-------paid public servants need to be held accountable and that means being aware of what they do and making them accountable..........

I hope the days of the brain dead voter is coming to an end............that would, thankfully, mean the end of the republican and tea parties................or they will be the end of all of us.

You need a license to get married, own a dog or a cat, fish or hunt............but any idiot can breed and any idiot who is a citizen can vote..........doing either one of these things without total awareness of consequences or personal responsibility is outrageous..............and, unfortunately, common practice in this country with a great educational system and tremendous wealth.........

incredible..............we need to stop denying that we are acting stupidly and come to grips with what we have done and change our course............this nation will not survive, but others will and then surpass us, if we continue to live in the dark ages---time to embrace 2012 and grow up and get real.

Gees....this whole process is just painful....waiting for republicans to get with the program and for their supporters to get off their ego trips and admit they are wrong and start working to fix this nation..

how much are republicans willing to sacrifice?.........how much are we willing to let them sacrifice?......when do the sacrifices add up to treason?

Working against our nation's best interests...........that is the republican motto.........as long they some how benefit from it they don't give a crap about those who are sacrificed.

I hope all the republicans have suffered upon the American people comes back at them each and everyone 10 fold.............

the problem with the republican party is this: if you notice the radical left is 'out there somewhere' on the fringe of the democrat party...when they are acknowledged at all. why? because they are crazy!

but, the republican party embraced the radical right and allowed them to get a foothold and now the radical right has the republican party by the proverbial 'balls' and won't let go. just ask any congressman or senator who is not seeking reelection. it's been all over the news. they sold their collective souls to the radical religious right and the tea party that was started and financed by people like the koch brothers. the people, the everyday regular joes who say they are tea party members, don't realize that they are being used by corporations. they've been convinced that the government is the enemy and that they should be grateful to just have a job, any job, no matter how low it is. and somehow we're supposed to feel privileged to live like paupers while the rich live above us like overlords.

no one on the left...except the radicals whom we don't listen to...is looking for any kind of communism. we're not trying to bleed the rich. we just want a fair wage for a hard day's work. i guess i just don't understand why businesses don't understand that a well paid workforce guarantees one thing... consumers! if you pay your employees pennies how can you expect them to continue to support your businesses. there are plenty of businesses out there that realize this. i used to work for one. verizon. whatever you might think of this company, they take care of their employees. they get decent wages, benefits and pensions. and guess what? the employees support the company. and verizon is one of the biggest companies in the world. the ceo was in the top ten paid in the country last year. so, how do they manage? walmart makes more money than verizon and yet they can't manage to pay their employees enough money to even live on. they, instead have chosen to let us, you and i support their employees via public assistance! isn't that special? this multibillion dollar company is letting the american taxpayer foot the bill for their employees because they are that greedy.

so, what do we do about it? as consumers we can put out pocket books where our anger is. i haven't set foot in a walmart in years...and i never will. we are the most powerful entity in this country.

Never thought I'd say this, but thank goodness for 85 at least somewhat sane republicans! Oh, and

s c r e w Cantor!

This bill did nothing to even pospone the fiscal cliff. It raises about 8 billion a year, in taxes but spends twice that. In less then 2 months we will be back to were we are today. Why didn't they do away with the AMT, make the business investment perminate instead of just a year. Well Obama got exactly what he wanted so he ownes what happens next. The downgrade in our S&P grading will be just the start. Then the new taxex (not even talking about the 3.6% on the so called rich) will take effect. I hope they post a list of the jerks that voted for this bill.

Congratulations DemoCrips and RepubliBloods...you just increased the deficit (and therefore debt).

No one is ever going to cut the spending needed to balance the budget, and it isn't possible to raise taxes high enough to fill the gap...but it is possible to raise them high enough to cause brain drain/collapse/higher prices/higher unemployment.

I wish the sheep citizenry didn't fall for such tricks like this whole manufactured drama of the "fiscal cliff". THEY MADE UP THIS FALSE DILEMMA. If I hear one more idiot say "Draconian cuts" about minor shavings off the spending totals, I think I'm going to puke. One side acts like the poor would starve, and the other act as if we don't have a world military empire that is full of places we can cut without hurting our chances to defend against attack and invasion.

Here's an idea:

Stop 40-70% of gun murder in the USA and simultaneously cut 50% (or a little less, if you like) of the "law" enforcement budget...END THE DRUG WAR.

I don't know why I bother...neither side is rational enough to do that. It's all about limiting rights to solve problems, not expanding them (which actually does solve most of these problems).

I have taken the time to actually read these posts for the most part. Those who are whining about reducting spending fail to realize if cuts are made to federally funded programs there will be a ripple effect of more jobs losses. The more jobs that are lost the less tax base we have.

Now onto the debt. We were involved in two wars that were unnecessary from the beginning and one, Iraq, was a personal grudge for Junior. I for one, as a Democrat in DC at the time, was outspoken against both wars due to the nonexistent threat to the US. In the meantime that administration forgot about going after Osama and cast all their stones in two ponds, the wars. All of the money needed to wage these wars were not paid for by an increase in taxes but instead taxes were decreased and the wars were put on a credit card and by cutting funding to a lot of federal agencies. Now it is time to pay and we are in a recession to boot. We need to create jobs first and foremost before we even consider making deep cuts. Of course we can immediately cut DOD and the Military Industrial Complex spending but the Republicans will not tolerate their War Machine being touched. They would rather sacrifice our GDP to the wolves instead of doing the what is right. Someone please explain why the Republicans are so touchy about the DOD and Military Industrial Complex spending and do it with intelligence and not rhetoric. I for one am at a loss on this subject. I know it is about pet projects in their home states but why sacrifice Social Security and other programs we have paid for out of our paychecks from the first day we started working?

We have a 2 part problem - Spending has 'skyrocketed', and tax revenues have 'tanked'. The Debt Commission recommended that Federal spending be set at about 19% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Tax Revenues be set at about 19% as well, which would create a balanced budget at some time in the future.

In 2011, Spending was 23.9% of GDP, which amounted to $735 Billion of excess spending.

In 2011, Tax Revenues were 15.3% of GDP, which amounted to $558 Billion in fewer taxes.

If we're going to get to a healthy financial condition, we need to have both Spending cuts AND Tax Increases. I would suggest a target of getting to Spending and Revenue Parity at 19% of GDP over 10 years – Call it a 19/10 Plan - described below.

Obama's 2013 Budget Projections calls for a GDP of $25.488 Trillion in 10 years (2022), so the Spending would be limited to gradually increase from $3.55 Trillion in 2012 to $4.893 Trillion in 2022 – an average increase of 3.3% per year.

Revenues from Taxes would also be targeted to gradually increase from $2.47 Trillion in 2012 to $4.893 Trillion in 2022 – an average increase of 7.1% per year. In 10 years, we would have a 'Balanced Budget', and the National Debt would be capped at about $22 Trillion in 2022.

Since the Democrats accuse the Republicans of 'protecting the rich' from tax increases, and the Republicans accuse the Democrats of 'spending us into oblivion', I would suggest that the Republicans be required to structure a plan to raise taxes, and the Democrats be required to structure a plan to cut spending. Then the Republicans would have to make the tough decisions on tax increases, and the Democrats would have to make the tough decisions on spending cuts.

Comments are welcomed.

ProIndividual-3906907 "If I hear one more idiot say "Draconian cuts" about minor shavings off the spending totals, I think I'm going to puke."

To a Liberal Democrat, a 'Draconian Cut' is one where spending INCREASES by less than 5% per year.

Let's look at the REAL problem with the Debt. According to Obama's own 2013 Budget Projections;

The projected Revenues for Medicare/Medicaid over the next 10 years are $2.823 Trillion.

The projected Costs for Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare over the next 10 years are $11.134 Trillion.

That leaves a net Deficit in the Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare programs of $8.311 Trillion, and Obamacare makes up over $2 Trillion of that Deficit, according to the CBO (so much for 'bending the cost curve down').

Until we agree to address this ONE HUGE ISSUE, our National Debt will continue to spiral out of control, and the Interest alone on the Debt will shatter the hopes and dreams of our children and grandchildren.

The average Interest expense per year under Clinton = $227 Billion/yr

The average Interest expense under Bush = $199 Billion/yr. (Yes, ir was lower).

The average Interest Rate on our Debt over the previous 30 years before Obama = 4.97%/yr.

In 2016, Obama projects Debt at $20.4 Trillion, so Interest alone could be $1,000 Billion/yr.

In 2016, Obama projects Debt of $26 Trillion, so Interest alone could be $1,300 Billion/yr.

Where is that increased (vs Clinton & Bush) Interest cost of $8 Trillion to $11 Trillion over 10 years going to come from?

Intellect-1949393 "Those who are whining about reducting spending fail to realize if cuts are made to federally funded programs there will be a ripple effect of more jobs losses. The more jobs that are lost the less tax base we have."

Ah, yes - the old Keynesian Economic Theory, but I have a question.

"If Deficit spending is such a great 'job creator', why has the $6.08 Trillion that we have borrowed and spent in the last 4 fiscal years not 'created' any jobs?"

At the end of fiscal 2008, the National Debt was $9.986 Trillion. At the end of fiscal 2012, the National Debt was $16.066 Trillion. That's an increase in the amount we have 'borrowed and spent' of $6.08 Trillion in 4 years.

At the end of fiscal 2008, we had 136,332,000 people working, and at the end of fiscal 2012, we have only 133,571,000 people working, for a LOSS of 2,761,000 jobs in those same 4 fiscal years where we had to borrow $6.08 Trillion to fund the government 'spending spree.

Sources - The official Government Treasury Department for Debt, and the official Government Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) for Employment.

Well at least now the country has been spared from fiscal sanity. Obama will now claim problem solved, and he will just continue his massive spending and borrowing binge so that when he leaves office our national debt will be well in excess of 20 trillion. Sure Obama can spew that he has cut spending, a trillion here, four trillion there, and yet the nation continues to maintain trillion plus annual deficits. Simply amazing that Obama can claim to have cut all sorts of spending, and yet his annual deficits never come down. It is not as if Obama and Democrats want to get spending or our debt under control, they want to spend even more, but only on their pet projects. Expanding government, expanding entitlements, expanding handouts, that is the Democratic Party idea for Washington.

oobama liscnse!

still the broken record of ignorance with your stupid comments! lay the blame where it belongs on the rich corporations and businessmen hiring the illegals. revoke citizenship from their 1,000,000 american employers!

You republitards need to stop whining. We give $8.5 million to Israel, PER DAY for weapons!! Its time the rich started paying their share of that wasted money that the republicans have convinced us all is so necessary.

Hey Barry.... you spent $1.75 MILLION on staff for Michelle..... since when did we hire her? Was she elected somewhere that I missed? Why does the 1st Lady need to be spending that kind of money?

Let's start the spending cuts in the White House.

Once again, the Democrats have succeeded in lying to the American people by parsing the truth so that they "sound" like they are right and once again the Republicans have lied to the American people by claiming they will stop the madness......and then supporting it anyway. Stop this nonsense, Mr and Mrs America!! Stop voting for these same lying sacks of putrescence over and over again!!

These idiots....these professional politicians......these wolves draped in the American flag are making a mockery of us all!! And the ideological idiots of this nation just keep voting for these same liars time after time!

Don't you all realize......Republican and Democrat alike.......that these knuckleheads do NOT CARE one wit for you and I?

You want proof? They raise capital gains taxes, they raise estate taxes, they raise income taxes for most Americans so that they have more money to waste.........meanwhile, they fail to vote on relief money to help displaced American families devastated by the so-called "Super Storm" Sandy.

In other words, they made sure that they got theirs (by taking more away from us), and then refused to act in a timely manner to give some of that money back to honest, hard-working American families that need the immediate hand up.

I'm a conservative, but I am by no means a Republican. We do not need to have Americans that are capable of working but find ways to take HAND OUTS from the government so they can avoid working! THOSE are called "entitlements", and they MUST be stopped!

Did they do anything to stop that? NO!

However.......I am all in favor of giving our fellow Americans a HAND UP when they need it most! These folks on the East Coast suffering from Mother Nature's devastation need our help NOW, but the selfish, self-interested MORONS IN WASHINGTON were too busy to be bothered.

So....did they do anything to help? NO!

My fellow Americans.....especially my brothers and sisters on the left......stop buying into these professional BS artists just because they have a "D" after their names!

Stop spewing so much hate, and stop ignoring the lies, cheating, and deceptions of your own party! Yes, there always has been, and always will be hard political discourse....there almost has to be, at times but this......this is too much!!

Let's stop fighting with each other and start holding ALL of our politicians feet to the political fire!

Let's work together to bring civility, intelligence, and an HONEST concern for the BEST INTERESTS of ALL AMERICANS back to Washington!!

We are not a "one size fits all" nation, and these stupefyingly bad legislative decisions will only cause more harm than good!

Mr. Warden-2811265

these people should be sodomized and thrown out in the street.

================================================

I believe that would qualify as littering to the worst degree, a felony offense, subject to massive fines and imprisonment.

Hey Steve,

bush spent $4,000,000,000,000 for two lost wars and 7,200 wasted American lives. Where is your comment about that spending????

Did you even look at the headlines on msn this morning? "Taxes rise, Markets Rally". What? I thought if taxes went up wall street would stop hiring people and start firing people. What's that you say????????? I guess the republicans lied? sure looks that way. lol

meanwhile, they fail to vote on relief money to help displaced American families devastated by the so-called "Super Storm" Sandy.

DL, I believe the Senate bill (that was also passed in the House) did have Sandy relief of $64B.

You may be thinking of the "amended" version that was considered by Republicans that would have funded $27B now. that bill was not passed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think you got that one wrong.

DL, I apologize for getting that wrong. The House did adjorn without passing that Sandy relief (in another bill).

I read Boehner promised to get that passed 'this month' but I understand the frustration anyway. Seems the Republicans still won't help the middle-class....until they get dragged into it by others.

Pigotry

Republicans...do the right thing. Put your country first

Hope you are happy to wake up and discover thatt the fiscal cliff was averted because republicans and democrats compromised, that the solution will only add $4 Trillion of deficits over 10 years, and that Mr Obama can now proudly boost that he drove the National Debt over $20 Trillion.

george pauljohn: "Taxes rise, Markets Rally". What? I thought if taxes went up wall street would stop hiring people and start firing people. What's that you say????????? I guess the republicans lied? sure looks that way. lol"

The markets rallied because they know there are not any cuts coming their way... just the opposite, taxes are being raised, and they know the added revenues will not be used to pay off or down the debt. But don't worry, the layoff are still coming, but they will come from companies that cannot afford the increases, and most of them are not even listed in the stock exchange. There are some 4.5 million companies in the U.S. which employ the vast majority of the American work force. Only about 5 thousand U.S. companies are actually listed on any public exchanges. In fact, a good number of companies listed in the NY Stock Exchange are actually foreign companies. Oddly enough, it's those 5 thousand companies on the exchange that receive virtually all government spending in the commercial sector, and they always have; hence, THEIR rally.

RichardH-7565330Pigotry is a good name for those people. I am on Disability pay with three fusions, a steel plate, and 6 screws in my spine. I get 30, 000 minus 214 a month for medical.

Richard, now you can be PROUD AS PUNCH that you make MORE MONEY THAN I DO!!!! And now because of this NO COMPROMISE deal I will be making even LESS!!!!!!! Doesn't that just make you giggle?

Hope you are happy to wake up and discover thatt the fiscal cliff was averted because republicans and democrats compromised, that the solution will only add $4 Trillion of deficits over 10 years

Funny, Republicans were saying last week that no one's taxes should be cut. But 24 hours later, they are saying we shouldn't give tax cuts to the middle-class because it costs too much.

First, tax cuts do cost money, and the Republicans are finally admitting it.

Second, Republicans are for tax cuts....only if, and as long as the RICH get them.

But didn't we already know this??

@Hussein for Messiah,

"Moshulu aka boomer leech." - Leech??? Why because he receives monies that are DUE him as part of his LEGAL CONTRACT with OUR government? Monies that he earned SERVING OUR COUNTRY for 34 YEARS in the U.S. ARMY Infantry. Leave it to a HYPOCRITICAL ReThuglican Conservitard like YOU to NOT want to HONOUR our Nation's commitments to our Military.............LOLZZZZZZZZ You effing pathetic excuse for a human being.

"64? hmmm, so would that make you a 'Nam vet? Party on dude!" and "Oh and BTW, you @!$%#ing lost your war. Fag." - It doesn't matter which war that he served in you Fuktard. The gentleman served and EARNED his money.

Calling him a Fag? - You really are low rent when you resort to showing your Homophobia. Let me guess YOU thought one of your boyfriends said " I Have Some Cake For You" and you didn't realize until you sampled the goods that he meant Cock...............Guess what brush your teeth and get over it Spermburper. Sometimes Life Happens. Sorry though as all it takes is one to be known for it the rest of your life - LOLZZZZZZZZZ

Regards,

Brandon

Pretty sad (pathetic actually) when an almost 18 year old understands whats fair and right better than you.

@StoptheCannibals-2908428,

"Second, Republicans are for tax cuts....only if, and as long as the RICH get them."

The reason is simple.................It's because all of the ReThuglicans got the lying and larceny genes. It's not their fault that they can't be cured as it is locked in their DNA.

ReThuglican = Lyin, Cheatin, Thief

WASHINGTON (AP) - While the tax package that Congress passed New Year's Day will protect 99 percent of Americans from an income tax increase, most of them will still end up paying more federal taxes in 2013.

That's because the legislation did nothing to prevent a temporary reduction in the Social Security payroll tax from expiring. In 2012, that 2-percentage-point cut in the payroll tax was worth about $1,000 to a worker making $50,000 a year.

The Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan Washington research group, estimates that 77 percent of American households will face higher federal taxes in 2013 under the agreement negotiated between President Barack Obama and Senate Republicans. High-income families will feel the biggest tax increases, but many middle- and low-income families will pay higher taxes too.

So much for the 47% leeching off America. Seems they are contributing as well (with a 2% tax increase) along with all those rich job-creators........ And we were told by Republicans they were all moochers.

I'd like to apologize for the colorful language. It seems that I only lasted one day into the New Year before giving in to a nasty little troll :( For whatever reason when anyone talks like that to someone else and especially if it's our Military it just really gets me angry. It might explain why the bar of Lava soap, bottle of water and the "In case of emergency instructions for potty mouth" are next to the PC (sigh). Time for a snack..........

Guess who owns this economy now that's Right Obama No more paying the Blame game. You own it lock stock and democrat Votes. Os now when things go wrong stand in front of a mirror and you will see who to blame when the economy tanks again. God this is great 2013 will be the best year ever. The best is you still have to face sequestration that was your Idea Obama go stand in front of that mirror, spending cuts you said many times campaigning it has to be a balance approach will you got your spending now its time for cuts. Then there is tax reform you also campaigned on that. Will have fun and keep on looking for some one to blame because on 01/01/2013 you ran out of bodies.

The Republican Party has failed. The Republican Party is useless. The Republican Party will be a passing comment like the Whig Party in as little as 20 years. I have given up my registration to the Republican Party and will no longer support them.

Thomas Jefferson: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty"

John Adams: "Liberty, once lost, is lost forever"

James Madison: "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be under the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

Thomas Jefferson: "Experience hath shown that even under the best forms of government, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

Thomas Jefferson: "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

Thomas Paine: "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."

John Adams: "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself."

Samuel Adams: "If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."

Benjamin Franklin: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

Benjamin Franklin: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

Patrick Henry: "The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them."

Abraham Lincoln: "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

Thomas Paine: "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

Theodore Roosevelt: "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."

Daniel Webster: "Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world."

Mark Twain: "Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it."

Thomas Jefferson: " Occasionally the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants."

Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

John Marshall: "An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy; because there is a limit beyond which no institution and no property can bear taxation."

Samuel Adams: "No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of Foreign Invaders."

Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and pursuit of Happiness: that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

The Republican Party has failed to uphold the Constitution. It is time to declare the Republican Party useless and is necessary to no longer dispute but to fight. The damage caused by the Democrat Party is now irreversible and the country is now destined to fail. I personally have left the Republican Party and call upon all patriots to no longer sit silent. Time to fight.

Wouldn't it be More Productive if Our Elected Leaders Started Working Together as AMERICANS for AMERICANS and AMERICA, instead of just bickering, stalling and posturing for the next election as democrats and republicans! The American People have had it with this unproductive BS! The way that both parties having been operating for years just stinks! Neither party has really been looking out for the best interests of the US Citizens who elect them and who they're supposed to represent.

Both parties have sold out the bulk of the American citizens, who they're supposed to represent, by allowing the "out-sourcing" floodgates to open wider and wider without taking any sensible measures to stem the tide.

It shouldn't be all about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about Americans, especially our elected officials, doing the right thing for our country and its citizens. All the single-minded, left versus right, ideological one dimensional bull has got to go!

Both parties need to start working together and actually start doing something to fix the real problems in our country like "out-sourcing", illegal immigration, the out of control costs of health care insurance and our reliance on foreign fuel. If they don't start working together and actually start making progress by the next election, then American citizens should run a nation-wide campaign to vote out all incumbents regardless of party to send the message.

And yes - I'm Angry - As are most American Citizens right now!

Those bashing the Republicans need to get a clue.. How long could your household budget work before the sheriff was there posting an eviction notice if you spent 5 times the money you had coming in for 30 years?? Democrats want to spend endlessly with no clue of where the money is to come from except raise the debt ceiling.. In their battle to have the Federal government in every aspect of your life and thus control everything they are bankrupting this nation.. Here comes socialism, wait, all the money is gone, here comes communism..

The ONLY REAL FIX is to Raise Revenue, by Bringing Back Jobs to US Citizens who Pay Income Tax.

Massive cutting just puts more people on unemployment, which just depresses the economy even further.

Returning private sector jobs to American Citizens will provide income tax revenue to OUR Government versus our government having to pay unemployment benefits to those who would be jobless instead. We need our elected officials to Start Protecting American Jobs and do whatever it takes to bring back the jobs they let go. We need leaders who will actually stand up for the American people.

The bottom line is that “Our Government” has to protect domestic industry and the jobs that those industries provide. If they do that, the rest will take care of itself.

We may have to pay a bit more for products made here in the USA by US citizens, but at least we'll still have jobs and a future for our children.

The Bush tax cuts were not permanent because the GOP couldn't get a majority vote, so these were passed through reconciliation. The second round in 2003 (to give more breaks on capital gains and dividends for the rich) required Cheney's vote to break the tie. By that time we were in two wars that were not funded!

But this is not to say these tax rates are permanent either, because all it takes is another majority vote to change these again. Once the economy improves enough, and trust funds like Social Security are addressed, I hope the richest 2% will finally pay what they should--especially in payroll taxes.

@ Moshulu:

You seem angry at this guy because he's being taken care of for what amounts to great injury to his body. Your quote of "he's lucky" came after his medical condition. If you call all his medical condition "lucky," in my book that doesn't say much about what you think of people.

I'm Retired Army Infantry after 34+ years, on a disability pension, I guess I'm lucky too, but, believe it or not, some people can't stand the fact they are paying my retirement, and I love it.

I'm like our politicians, you know, the millionaire ones, who really don't need that social security check, or government retirement check, but they take it anyhow, so why shouldn't I? At 64 y/o I've made some very GOOD financial investments that can support me and my family quite well, but hey, you owe me my pension for 34+ years, that's what you said when I signed up, so that's what I expect.

And I do pay taxes.

Quit being so angry at your fellow Americans, expecially those that are disabled!

Sorry, Moshulu, he is lucky! And actually, it is Richard that sounds angry that he isn't getting more of a free ride. Sorry dude, but anyone getting $30,000 a year, plus cost of living adjustments every year is lucky! And since he's on disability, I'd assume he will probably collect much more than he ever paid in - mainly when you consider the tax free aspect of disability.

Once you are paid what you put in, with interest, Social Security becomes welfare - period! And considering most people are paid back within about 10 years, a lot of people are collecting welfare. Not something they paid for, not something they earned, but something they are taking from someone else. I'm not saying Social Security is wrong, I'm saying that it is not always what someone paid for or earned.

I too am a lucky retired government worker as you say you are. I have a pension and lifelong health insurance. But I paid for those benefits in lieu of what I could have made in the private sector. I made about $70,000 a year for government, but earned approximately $25,000 a year more than that in the private sector. So I don't feel that anyone is paying for my benefits. I paid for them. Besides, we all pay for everyone's pay and benefits either in the goods and/or services they provide.

I'm only angry at the Americans that think they are entitled to something they did not earn or work for themselves. Or the one's scamming they system. If that doesn't anger you as ex-military - well, what the hell were you fighting for???!!!

Obama signs the bill and then again, whisks away on vacation AGAIN!?!?! Hey this plane ride costs $186,000 per hour of our money, boy this guy knows how to spend, spend, spend ....... the problem is; it's our money. Hey Obama, thanks for stopping by!

What a great deal that Obama agreed to, the deficit growing at 4 billion dollars a day and giving emergency unemployment to the laziest people in world that want free money and are too f'in lazy to go and get a job, any job!

What's funny is that $480 million going to Hollywood, several billion going to the rum refineries and millions going to algae, now there's a great idea, what a fk'in waste!

Congress, all of them need to be ousted, maybe it's time for the American people to take a stand, stop the bullsh!t talk and revolt ...!

Enjoy another 4 years of absolutely nothing getting done and Obama can at least send us all postcards from all his vacations, hell we paid for them.

PS: Chris "Crispy Cream" Christie needs to shut his fat trap, what a boot licking suck up to Obama!

soarer "Pigotry Have you even looked at this bill. It is a slap in the face of every american. I see you post all the time as the first poster on this site on every political piece. It makes me wonder if your computer generated from MSNBC."

Actually, Pigotry shares that status with Feisty Redhead Roselle, but at least one 'hacker' has claimed that they have the same URL address, so they might be the same person posting under different names (and other names as well) so they can post comments agreeing with themself.

They (she) must have some kind of 'in' with NBCPOLITICS (formerly msnbc) that notifies her when a new story is posted.

Why did Obama win?

Obama increased the number of people dependent on the government for assistance (the number of people getting food stamps, free health care and/or cash aid increased from about 30 million in 2008 to about 47 million in 2012). That's an increase of about 17 million getting 'free' assistance from the government.

Obama then told these people that “If Romney is elected, he will take away your food stamps”.

Obama won this group by about 11 million votes, while Romney won the group that pays the income taxes to fund the welfare by about 6 million votes – Net win for Obama = 5 million votes.

Simple, but effective.

TruePatriot-445959 " By that time (under Bush) we were in two wars that were not funded!"

Are you pretending that Obama is funding the wars any differently? The cost of the wars under Obama has been paid for the same way as under Bush - With borrowed money'.

You seem angry at this guy because he's being taken care of for what amounts to great injury to his body. Your quote of "he's lucky" came after his medical condition. If you call all his medical condition "lucky," in my book that doesn't say much about what you think of people.

Sorry, Moshulu, he is lucky! And actually, it is Richard that sounds angry that he isn't getting more of a free ride. Sorry dude, but anyone getting $30,000 a year, plus cost of living adjustments every year is lucky! And since he's on disability, I'd assume he will probably collect much more than he ever paid in - mainly when you consider the tax free aspect of disability.

It seems to be all about money for a lot of people. It's hard to comment about what someone else is feeling because I obviously can't read minds through the computer; but I'm a physical therapist and at one point I worked with a chronic pain center. Normally if we saw someone like "that guy" he would be in quite a bit of pain. Usually at that point-assuming there had been treatment in the past-there would very little more that could be done other than strategies to deal with the pain. No one is going to pay for soft tissue work-even skilled physical therapy deep tissue work and/or myofascial release-for an injured person indefinitely. I'm not saying they should. My point is that I find it hard to consider someone "lucky" if they find themselves living a life in chronic pain regardless of what the government gives them. I've seen many people who lived that life, and I can't imagine it being something anyone would want.

For some reason there seem to be more and more people in this country who have a tendency to view anyone who receives government assistance as a "fraud" or to look for ways in which they might be considered a "fraud." I'm not saying that is true of the people I've quoted at the beginning of my comment. It just seems odd to me that someone would view the receiving of disability that one has earned by law as "lucky." I've seen the "fraud" attitude a lot towards the poor, where certain groups try to make a case that people the government considers poor aren't really poor-as if they are imposters or something-based on invalid data. People have had that idea of people with chronic pain for a long time because chronic pain is something you can't see, unlike a wheelchair, and it's hard to recognize disability when you don't see it. It's as if many people don't think pain is real or that it can be disabling unless they actually see a cast or a wound.

It is true that I also saw patients who were magnifying their pain or even malingering; however, in most cases these patients did have some degree of pain and physical dysfunction and usually there were complex motives behind what they were doing-it was not often a simple matter of someone "trying to beat the system." Many of them had prescription addiction problems as well as depression on top of their pain by the time we saw them-and often there was a strong family dynamic as well. So it might not be that they "wanted" it as much as maybe it was familiar or that they feared they couldn't get any needs met and therefore couldn't survive without it, as strange as that sounds. (i.e., maybe they feared everyone would leave them alone if they weren't sick or something like that.) There were even a number of cases where the inconsistencies we saw appeared to be at least partially subconscious and therefore not voluntary. We documented everything, as there are ways to do that, including inconsistencies in the evaluation and our assesment, and I also had to give a few depositions; but in my experience neither the lawyers nor the insurance companies on either side knew enough about what we were doing to take action on what we wrote either to help themselves or the patient-and they really weren't interested in educating themselves about it.

BTW, I'm not saying anything I've posted about pain or pain patients is true of the guy who posted because I don't know anything about him or his life-I'm only sharing my own experience in the hope of showing that it's not all about money and who's "lucky" to get it. It's not easy to be certified as disabled in most cases. Many things are not simple issues...and it pays to be open to learning and also to have some compassion on others who may be facing issues that you don't understand.

@ seen to much:

I never said he was "lucky" because of his injuries. What I said was he was lucky there was a system in place that would pay him for his "disability". And if it's SSI Disability and he's getting $30,000 (tax free) a year with annual cost-of-living adjustments - he's lucky. Not all that long ago, he would have been on his own!

The disability system, whether it is through SSI or private disability, is wrought with abusers of the system. And as a physical therapist, you know it. If you can't see or admit to the huge amount of fraud in the system, you are kidding yourself and/or you are a bit biased about it.

I'm not saying this guy's claim is a scam - I'm saying he should count the financial blessing of having it! He is making more in tax-free disability than a whole lot of 40 hour a week workers. And I'm assuming his health insurance pays the medical tabs - at least a lot of it. So I feel for him about his terrible injuries - but he doesn't have a gripe about the financial end of it!

There are A LOT of people on government dole who are scamming the system, and that is just a fact!

Right. Under a libertarian government, businesses would be able to poison every inch of our land, every drop of our water and every cubic yard of our air. After all, regulation is an infringement on our freedom, right? And all businesses would be able to bar minorities from employment and install whites only bathrooms and water fountains (if their are any water fountains left). Anyone who actually supports the Libertarian Party are unable to see more than one step into the future of their action's consequences.

If there were more Libertarians in congress, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Right, we would look more like the libertarian paradise of Somalia.

Than Mitt Romney could get us to work for food.

Gee I hope our politician's can save us ! How pathetic we have become. The illusion of it all is sickening.

Robert Warner: Still miss Mitt or is it buyers remorse?

This bill was not created for the American Citizens, nor the tax payer. They did this for the Wall Street Investor.

Listen to the talking heads of CNN, Fox and NBC... They were so so so worried about the opening bell tomorrow. Not a word about the Tax Payer or Citizen.

I see whats going on here, and strangely I agree with the Tea party, this bill that DOES NOT HELP the Tax Payer or Citizen, should had been defeated.

The only one who won tonight are the Filthy Rich Investors, and Wall Street.

And thats my opinion

It is a SLANTED HEADLINE. I watched the voting live and there were democratic NAY and objections as well.

The issue is not tax, too many people think this is about tax. Tax is a part of the issue but the big thing that needs to be delt with is SPENDING.

The liberals are driving us further down in debt doing what they love to do, tax and spend, now with the added twist to now BORROW and spend more.

Who is "un-American" now, for piling on so much debt?

You guys spout the same debunked nonsense every time someone tries to reason with you. Libertarianism would be better, I hate to inform you.

Somalia has gotten way better under statelessness, by the way. Look up the facts. Death from war, disease, etc. are all down. Literacy is up, incomes are up, AIDs rates are down, etc.,etc., etc. Acting like a country that suffered under a horrible communist state for decades should just rocket up to 1st world standards is nonsense. It's not comparing apples to apples. The question isn't if they are as well off as us, the question is whether they are better off compared to what they had before.

If libertarians ran this country we'd have no drug war, no wars overseas that weren't in direct self defense, those wars that were self defense would be over in less than 2 years because we don't nation build (you know, setting up puppet regimes like in Afghanistan even though we admit Karzai rigged elections), the poor would have more job opportunities, the middle class would have higher incomes, the recessions would last only a year or two instead of 10 darn years, and American people wouldn't be facing drone surveillance, indefinite detention, unwarranted phone taps and email snooping, and nonviolent "crimes" (theft is voilence BTW) wouldn't be crimes.

Oh the horrors of liberty. Ignorant sheep...ugh.

Hey rerere, ProIndividual-3906907...

You think Robert Warner-3092405 has even the slightest clue as to what the Federal government has waiting for him in the Patriot Act? My guess is NO.

By the way Robert Warner-3092405, guess who hasn't been adding regulations that currently allow corporations to legally "poison every inch of our land, every drop of our water and every cubic yard of our air." Pick one: Dems, Reps, or Libertarians.

Guess which political group also didn't implement or fight to maintain laws in the South to "bar minorities from employment and install 'Whites Only' bathrooms and water fountains." Want to try again...? Pick one: Dems, Reps, or Libertarians.

Now guess which political group didn't vote for the Patriot Act in order to save your ignorant butt from the same groups that passed it so they could legally take away every right you could ever hope to have without you ever committing a crime? Want to try again...? Pick one: Dems, Reps, or Libertarians.

I'm guessing you are a Rep or a Dem... so are you trying to tell us with your comment:

Robert Warner-3092405: "Anyone who actually supports the Libertarian Party are unable to see more than one step into the future of their action's consequences."

...that you actually knew this crap was down the pike and still voted for one of these clowns?

Maybe in your case, the Libertarians should make an exception for the Patriot Act.