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House and Senate leaders from both parties will make their way to the White House this afternoon at President Barack Obama’s request for a last-ditch effort to reach an agreement to avoid the impending fiscal cliff.
Related: Obama bringing lawmakers to Oval Office for last-minute 'cliff' talks
The parties will enter the meeting seeming as far apart as ever on an agreement to avert the combination of automatic tax hikes and spending cuts set to take effect on Jan. 1. Republicans, led by House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, say they have acted – by passing an extension of all of the expiring Bush tax cuts, an unpalatable proposition to Democrats – and now it’s the Senate’s turn.
The speaker’s office said Boehner “will continue to stress that the House has already passed legislation to avert the entire fiscal cliff and now the Senate must act” at tomorrow’s meeting.
And the Senate, led by Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., is demanding that the GOP-held House assents to a bill that would allow taxes to rise on income over $250,000 per year.
Under pressure to show up even without a deal in hand, Congress will work this holiday weekend as the top Democrat and Republican leaders sit down with President Obama to discuss the fiscal cliff. NBC's Kelly O'Donnell reports.
This posturing by both parties amounts to little more than a stalemate in lawmakers’ effort to avert the fiscal cliff, just days before the deadline to forge a deal. With that in mind, here are the variables to watch, which could signal either breakthrough or failure on the fiscal cliff.
TONE: Hopes for a fiscal cliff compromise spiked on Nov. 16 when the same congressional leaders who are gathering Friday appeared jointly following their first meeting at the White House to hail the “constructive” conversation, all the while avoiding the usual partisan barbs.
Negotiations have deteriorated in the weeks since then, to say the least.
But with time running out before the end-of-year deadline, how or whether lawmakers speak following their meeting with Obama could speak volumes about the prospects for a deal.
If Boehner, Reid, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., appear jointly – as they did in mid-November – it might portend good things about a potential resolution to the fiscal cliff.
But if they take to the microphones outside the West Wing separately (or issue statements), offering more vitriolic rhetoric and finger pointing, it would suggest bleak prospects for ongoing negotiations.
PROCESS: Much of the recent stalemate in Congress, as outlined above, involves whether it’s up to the House or the Senate to act first to resolve the fiscal cliff.
Recommended: Nearly out of time, lawmakers brace for blame on fiscal cliff
Neither party wants to be the one to make the first major concession, meaning that the House is looking to the Senate (and vice-versa) to be the first chamber to “jump,” so to speak.
Boehner has clearly and repeatedly signaled his desire to let the legislative process take its course. He argues that the Senate should amend any of the earlier tax bills that the Republican House has passed. The Senate could conceivably gut that legislation, replace it with any alternative that the upper chamber desires, and send it back to the House to see whether it can pass.
Alternatively, Reid is simply demanding that Republicans pass an existing Democratic tax bill, which would preserve existing tax rates on income under $250,000 a year. (Republicans counter that this law has a so-called “blue slip” problem –asserting that it’s procedurally flawed because tax bills cannot originate in the Senate, according to the Constitution.)
If the leaders emerge from their meeting at the White House with a clear idea of which chamber might act first, it would be a first step toward resolving the fiscal cliff by the New Year’s Eve deadline.
Senator John Thune, R-S.D., and Senator Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., discuss the possibility of the country slipping over the fiscal cliff and weigh in on what needs to be the guiding principles in the last-ditch discussions.
NUMBERS: Senate Democrats want the House to pass a bill that would preserve existing tax rates on incomes below $250,000.
Obama offered a deal to Boehner that would preserve income beneath a slightly higher threshold: $400,000 per year.
Boehner tried – and failed – to pass a bill (his “Plan B”) that would have kept tax rates the same for all income under $1 million.
If the leaders emerge from the White House today with some sort of number on which they have agreed, it could provide the framework for a final agreement.
Related: Boehner calls House back to Washington on Sunday
Just as important have been the topline numbers – that is, the target total savings in an agreement as collected from new taxes, or alternatively, spending cuts.
The president initially sought $1.6 trillion in new tax revenue before lowering that target to $1.4 trillion. Republicans offered $800 billion in revenue, which they said could be collected through tax reform that closes a number of deductions and loopholes.
At the same time, Obama’s last offer to Boehner included $1.2 trillion in spending cuts, including $400 billion in savings from entitlement programs.
An agreement of that scale seems unlikely with just a few days to go until the deadline, but an agreement on these topline numbers – either on a small deal, or a big deal – would suggest a degree of progress toward a solution.
CAN-KICKING: One option available to lawmakers would be to do something they’ve done all along: punt the problem to a later deadline.
In many respects, the fiscal cliff represents the ultimate example of lawmakers’ habit of kicking the can down the road. The automatic spending cuts that compose part of the cliff grew out of their inability to reach an agreement with Obama on taxes and spending during the debt ceiling fight in 2011. And the impending tax hikes are the byproduct of a two-year extension of the 2001 Bush tax cuts past their original expiration date in 2010.
But what Congress can do, it can also undo. And that means they could conceivably agree to delay the onset of the fiscal cliff for weeks, months or even a year to give themselves breathing room to negotiate a deal.
Furthermore, a decision to delay the fiscal cliff could mean that the contours of a fiscal cliff compromise have taken shape, and that lawmakers just need more time to hammer out the details. Alternatively, another can-kicking incident could rattle markets thanks to another instance of governing by lurching from crisis to crisis. Furthermore, it would do little to resolve the uncertainty on taxes that is hanging over many businesses heading into the new year.
THE FLANKS: Lastly, it’s important to keep an eye on the flanks in both parties – liberal Democrats and conservative Republicans – in terms of how they react to today’s meeting, and any possible deal that might emerge.
How many liberals or conservatives finish the day rattling their sabers, versus sitting on their hands?
The more anger there is on either flank toward any potential proposal, the more difficult it becomes for leaders in the House and Senate to find the necessary votes to approve an agreement – especially in such a politically polarized environment.
The importance of the flanks played vividly last week in the House, when conservatives refused to go along with Boehner’s “Plan B” (the proposal that would have allowed taxes to go up on millionaires) because, as the speaker put it, “they were dealing with the perception that somebody might accuse them of raising taxes.”
Jonathan Ernst / Reuters
President Barack Obama returns from Christmas visit in Hawaii to the White House, Dec. 27, 2012.
Any final agreement will almost certainly have to involve both Democratic and Republican votes. But if either party’s base is incensed by Friday’s meeting at the White House, it would make mustering the political willpower to pass an agreement that much more difficult.
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Letter from the Republicans/Boehner:
My Fellow Americans,
I would like to take this time out to wish everyone a wonderful Holiday Season.
I also need to ask for forgiveness:
Please forgive me for being such a Pathetic Leader. I do not deserve my salary and I hate that I have leeched off of the Government for so long.... Can you please forgive me.
I'm sorry for signing the pledge with Grover, I'm sorry for wishing that the President Fail, I'm sorry for taking the American People for granted.
Please forgive me for all the lies we have told, all the sandbagging, distracting, deflecting, gerrymandering, voter suppression, rigged voting machines, etc.
Please forgive us for pissing through the surplus Clinton left and then leaving $5T debt out in the black hole. Thank you Mr. President for putting it on the books, we were too selfish and corrupt to do it our selves.
Please forgive us for NOT having ANY control when we signed all those bills that ran the deficit/debt up to the high heavens, knowing we didn't have the money and knowing we would leave that debt with our children and grandchildren. We were spending like drunken Sailors..... As a matter of fact, I'm still drunk....
We have not learned the err of our ways and that is why we are still acting like fools, please forgive us. I know we are acting like WE won the Whitehouse... and it's just killing us slowly to know Barack stomped a new mud hole in our asses for the whole world to see...Now, that hurts!
So, please let's all just jump off the cliff together so we don't have to be the ones to let the tax rate expire. If we go over, then we can lie to our constituents and say,"Well THEY did it". We really are such punks...Please forgive us!
Mr. President, Please continue to move this Great Nation forward as the American people agreed with on 11/6/12. You have shown us HOW IT'S REALLY DONE!!!! Even Krautheimer (sp) said so on Hannity.
So, if you can find it in your hearts to forgive us for all the BS we have brought on the country, we will get in step behind the President and take care of the PEOPLE'S busioness.
Sincerely,
John and Others!
SURPLUS that slick Willy left. LMAO.
Do you know how we got to the alleged surplus that Clinton left? It is called borrowing against Social Security.
So Slick Willy mortgaged your children's retirement to have the government show a surplus.
Maobama......Even if that is true, it was far better then than it is now. The real question is why are democrats so against going back to the policies that were in effect under Clinton? Clinton balanced the budget after tax cuts and spending cuts. He lowered tax cuts in 1997 and had a balanced budget in 1999 and 2000.
Critic,
Is that the best you got?
hehehehe
I have an idea that could generate lots of money. Why not eliminate earned income credit. Do you realize that there are some people that pay 0 in income tax, and then turn around file their taxes and get lump sums of money that they never actually paid in?
Earned Income Credit was a thinly veiled welfare program enacted by Slick Willy in the 90s.
Honestly I get that their is a subsection of low income workers that should not have any tax liability, but to draw something that you never put into the Federal Coffers, is robbery in my book.
Harleyguy: You seem to have spent a little too much time down the holler at the still this morning.... sign off, sober up and come back when you are lucid.
Five things to watch for today:
Stupid uncaring politicians milling around patting each other on the back.
Politicians smiling at their year end bonuses along with Wall Streeters.
Men with money but no wisdom acting like they care about the country.
Pointing to a fiscal cliff and debt ceiling which are made up entities to keep us in fear.
Last minute maneuvering of caring and acting to put on a big show for the public.
Get with the program leftys. We need lots and lots of money to keep this country the envy of the free world:
These GOP/NRA schemes will all help keep America rich and prosperous:
1. A Swat team in every school, movie theatre and anywhere the general public assembles.
2. Build a lot more drones so our smart missiles can annihilate a lot more peasants in the 3rd world.
3. Offshore Tax havens for all our white trash bigots (not just for the stinkin rich bigots).
4. A automatic assault weapon and a up to date Bible in every home. (just shoot everybody and let God sort it out)
5. Mandatory subscription to FOX news (hey,it doesn't matter its full of lies)
6. Walls along our borders to keep out the Commies, Mexicans and Canadians.
7. More Wars (we got to keep our Military Industrial Complex Happy:)
8. Fire all Civil Servants (we don't need them, see no. 4)
9. Put poor people in work camps and don't pay em.
10. Only GOP card carrying members are allowed to vote. (this will solve everything)
Which one are you? Dumb or Dumber?
Wow I think you have it figured out. Can we amend the constitution?
Wow......I can't believe the complete lack of intelligence that these liberal posters show. Is it a lifetime goal of theirs to prove to the world that they are completely ignorant? Most of these guys would have a hard time beating a rock in a battle of wits and would be considered hateful than most gestapo in Germany.
One thing we know for certain about the 112th Congress, is the laziest and most inept since the 1940's. I finally figured out why tea-bagging, neoconservative Republicans howl and whine about the federal government being too big and wanting to "drown it in the bath tub" - conservatives are too stupid and lazy to govern - period.
In the last 20 years, whenever Congress has done NOTHING - it has been under the domination of neoconservatives.
Nearly everything this Congress has done addresses such monumental issues as naming post offices, gutting Obamacare, or regulating the uteri of women. That's it!
THROW JOHN BOEHNER OFF THE FISCAL CLIFF !!
Now Now. Just like you cannot make threats against the POTUS. The same is true about the SOH.
Boehner is not very sharp neither is Cantor! Just no ability to move their own Party. Do think that the tax thing could be fixed but the true speaker is the guy making them sign the tax pledge. He runs the Party Mr Speaker Grover Norkuist.
The latest fear and panic (which by the way is becoming common place in this country) fueled by the media and the politicians. Be scared cause we are going over a cliff. Oh no doomsday. Morons reign. Sad.
It is incredible to me that our "statesmen" in Washington can't reach compromise agreements on the issues leading us to the fiscal cliff.
Think how much more difficult it must have been for the Framers as they sat down during a hot Philadelphia summer to hammer out a constitution for a new government. The issues separating them were so much deeper than the petty concerns of present day politicians, yet through four months of effort toward compromise, they crafted the finest political document in history.
The American people are absolutely fed up with petty politicking. They want their elected leaders to rise up to the standard set by our Founding Fathers. It's time these pathetic politicians found a way to act like statesmen.
The framers had a difficult time as well. They had to be locked in a room in Philadelphia during the summer without air conditioning for a while in order to get the compromise they needed.
"statesmen"? That is where you are wrong. Just read all the above in this whole comment area. "We the People" have decided we want to be Democrats or Republicans. And, we want our representatives to act that way as well. WE are not statesmen and WE do not want our representatives to act that way either I suppose.
If we wanted anything different, we would try to come up with solutions HERE rather than the constant back and forth name calling that is the standard, mostly useless, fare on this MSNBC discussion board.
I just want to know why anyone believes another TRILLION plus dollars of new foreign owned National Debt is a good thing each year?
Party of No.....keep saying "NO"
Party that can't say No.....eat it. No more "free" stuff for you shiftless welfare bums.
I am more then ever of the mind that another amendment to the Constitution is needed for the election of Congress. There needs to be a National lottery submitted by Citizens for the Congress seats. Their name is chosen for 5 years and then another drawing takes place. This for both Parties. Think the average citizen would do a wonderful job!
And go back to the state legislators electing senators.
Do a lottery to get the people in Congress. You win and are now in Congress. I would rather have you a person I have not met but am sure you would do a great job for the Country!
I am serious about this and know it would require an amendment to the Constitution!
To take your analogy further, once overweight (spent too much time eating) some effort and discomfort must follow together with the new diet. Raising taxes is painful, but so too is national insolvency.
We had a bigger spending problem financing WWII all by ourselves; couldn't borrow from China or India or anyone else. So what did we do? We Americans bought war bonds and we had a top personal income tax rate of 94% in 1944.
So, today Republicans assert that we again have a spending and deficit problem, but rail in anguish about raising the top personal income tax rate at all!
True patriots.
Bruce.....No we didn't have bigger spending problems in WWII than we do now. You should no better. How much did we spend on the war in 1946? $0. We were able to cut spending dramatically once the war stopped. Tell me where you would cut the equivalent of $1.2 trillion from the budget next year from one item next year and I might agree with you.
We only languish against raising taxes on anyone until the spending comes close to something reasonable. Until then, we are simply throwing money away. By the way, JFK came to his senses and noticed millions not being taxes because the rich were moving all their money overseas because of the high tax rates. He boosted the economy and lowered the tax rates. Reagan, Clinton and Bush did that as well, and each time the economy was boosted.
Put American First: Wrong. The top personal income tax rate in 1952 was still high at 92%. And even as a kid growing up in the 1950's we were still buying savings stamps at ten cents each to put in our little booklets which when filled were taken to the bank to buy a $25 U.S. Savings Bond to help pay down the WWII debt - but you weren't around yet then were you?
Let's stop talking about Mr Boehner as being the obstacle here. An equally stubborn horse's ass is leading the senate.
I am actually longing for the days when a Ted Kennedy would step up and make a deal in order to get the country's business done for the good of the country. Both sides are wrong here and neither side wants to give. Taking 100% of the "wealthiest American's money" alone would not bring spending into balance. Cutting extra spending back to the days before the Iraq/Afghanistan wars will not stop Americans from retiring and filing for Social Security and Medicare benefits they are entitled to.
Admit it, politicians. You are screwed and us worse than you, so do something positive before you are voted out of office and retain your full salary and benefits for the rest of your miserable lives.
Teddy would make a deal, drink a fifth, drown a booty call, and run for POTUS all in 1 day.
The man would not stop.
Your right. I would have you in Congress and trust you over what we have now in this Country.
Democrats slogan should be.
Spending other people's money and making you feel good about it. Yes we can spend it all.
GOP slogan should be:
We start Wars so America can prosper.
When the EBT Cards are declined then they will get the message and know that we have fell off the fiscal cliff.
When defence contractors can't get paid to build tanks that no one wants...they will also get the message. Oh wait, the repubs want all the cuts to go in place, but of couse not the military. They still need the cash more than the small % that goes to food stamps.
I am with your thought but the fighting will continue and the Democrats will block as the Republicans do! Want a lottery to chose the people that are there so the person is not committed to Grover Norquist who is the same as the Speaker of the House. The Democrats have the same I am sure. We need out from under the people who are there and I am serious a lottery would get us there!
House Republicans are indicating that the Senate effort to preserve the tax breaks for incomes below $250k is not procedurally correct because all tax bills MUST originate from the House. In the same breath, they are saying that the President and the Senate must move first to solve the crisis. Mr. Boehner, please grow a pair and get this done now!! You don't have any excuse that will hold up in public and the leadership deficit is in your seat and no one else's!!
Frustration will continue! Good God this will go through the Spring as the Debt limit stuff comes up again. What a group of people. We are going Bankrupt!
In the standoff over the fiscal cliff, all the discussion has been about the Bush tax cuts. There has been no discussion about the ObamaCare tax increases. That's a mistake.
Five of the tax increases Americans will face on January 1 are new taxes created under the Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare). And they are not just for the very rich. Three of the five will hit people who are solidly middle class.
The new ObamaCare taxes will hit everything from dividends and capital gains to day care and services for special needs children. They will increase the tax bill for those who have extraordinary medical expenses? at the very time when they can least afford to pay higher taxes. They will hike the tax burden for the chronically ill who have several thousand dollars of out-of-pocket prescription drug expenses every year. The taxes will fall on medical devices ranging from pacemakers and artificial hips to bedpans and stents.
President Obama is the biggest spender of public funds in history, and he has shown absolutely no willingness to make any significant cuts in spending programs. The fiscal cliff, then, offers the GOP the unprecedented opportunity to cut spending, something that is otherwise impossible to do with President Obama through compromise.
No matter how the fall over the cliff develops, the president will successfully use it to blame Republicans. The average American voter has not yet felt the impact of the ObamaCare tax increases that will be enacted Jan. 1, 2013, whether the cliff fall is averted or not. And more importantly, no matter how Mitt Romney tried to explain the negative effects of Obama's fiscal policies, the electorate voted for Obama. So the GOP needs to abandon the idea that they will be able to convince the electorate that Obama's policies will hurt working Americans.
To provide all Americans with health insurance, premiums will have to rise to pay for it, Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini told CNBC's "Closing Bell" on Wednesday. Bertolini said that insurance premiums could double in some places just on the basis of what types of policies people buy today. He also said that when Obamacare is fully implemented, it won't start the way people had hoped and it won't be cheaper.
Problem is it will not change. So your are right now what. Two days away from the drink. Everyone is Right and down they will go. Had a Plant once that all they had to do was get a little more efficient. The people wanted to do it but the Union said no. The Plant closed. This is what will happen with America. We are the losers with the Norkqist of the world running the Country. The same with the give away Democrats. My God its getting bad!
All of the Bills that constitute the fiscal cliff were signed into law by Obama. e.g. The Budget Control Act of 2011 (August 2, 2011). The so called "cuts" are only cuts in the "budgeting baseline", and are not real cuts, because the spending will go up when compared to 2011 dollars.
The budgeting baseline is a bookeeping trick that was invented by big-central-government advocates (big-government liberals and big-government conservatives) in order to guarantee increases in the size of government year-after-year (domestic and defense). The bill included a huge increase in the debt ceiling so that our grandchildren can pay for our current wasteful spending. Baseline budgeting was initially created in the Congressional Budget Act of 1974. The bill was really helpful to crony capitalists and the banks who finance it. The very same corporations and banks who were considered too big to fail.
Now, the president is afraid of even tiny cuts in the projected increase of the budget.
We do not have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. There ought to be real cuts in spending (e.g. bring the troops home from over 130 countries - why do we have troops in Germany and Japan?).
The problem is that both sides are really big-government advocates. One side wants to continue to grow defense spending and the other side wants to continue to grow domestic spending, instead of letting the people decide what to spend their own money on. If individuals were allowed to spend more of their own money, then the economy will grow in a more natural manner. People will vote with their dollars.
Obama KNOWS his legacy is shot; remember how on June 4, 2008 that "This is the moment when the rise of the oceans slows and our planet begins to heal" (actual quote)....
That arrogance kinda sums it up....no ?
He will be remembered for ruining this country's economy, a reckless teenager-with-a-credit-card in the White House; his inability to reach across the aisle, his inexperience in running anything (other than his mouth) which results in 27% BLACK UNEMPLOYMENT....his amateur foreign policy efforts resulting in an Ambassador and 3 others getting slaughtered while he went back to Vegas (for the 3oth time) to campaign....
His "Pimp with a Limp" interview while world leaders huddled at the United Nations....his "eye candy" reference while Netanyahu BEGGED him for a meeting....
Not one budget passed in 4 years....
To my many friends on the left....this is what you have brought us.....
THE WORST PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES
They all have bad jobs. Over half of the Country agreed with him and he is back. do think that there could be an agreement but it won't happen. Neither side will win and America is headed to another Greece. It is easy to blame but dam is there a solution. NO We need a lottery for Congress to get people who care and are not controlled by the Norquist of the world!
Trouble 1954,
Is that you Newt? Sure sounds like you!
Why are you so jealous of Barack? Is it his swag? It surely can't be because of 27% black unemployment... because the OTHER/WHITE Presidents haven't done any better in regards to unemployment PERIOD!!!!
Reckless teenager with a credit card???? Come on now, you know and I know who ran the CC up, you CAN"T be that stupid.... Can you?
Amatuer Foriegn policy.....Ask Bin Laden and posse if he is an amatuer...Just because you say it doesn't make it so... GET IT!!!
Worst POTUS.... Dubya already holds that title.
Have a GREAT DAY!!!!
I saw you dancing on the pole last week; you really need to push away from the table.....here are a few singles to help you with all of those kids.
Here's a graphic that should be very disturbing to anyone who believers that Democrats hold a majority in the Senate. They don't. No one does.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/chart-day-republicans-and-filibuster
Bruce....That simply isn't true. No one holds a super majority. The idea of the filibuster is to force closely even sides to negotiate with each other. Maybe if democrats took the time to garner some republican input they might get a couple of senators to vote across the aisle like they did in the past.
The filibuster is a tactic to delay, stop, kill debate. Nothing more; nothing less.
Unlike the House which has time limits set for members to hold the floor, a Senator can speak forever. The late Senator Bird's filibuster once was to read the entire Bible starting with Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 1.
The Congress and the Senate don't seem to really care what happens to the citizens of the U.S. We need to do something that will get their collective attention. I propose that we change our withholding amount for federal income tax by changing your personal allowances on form W-4 to 10 or more. This will eliminate most of the withholding for federal tax from your paycheck. If enough workers were to do this the amount of dollars going to the Fed every other week would be greatly reduced. That should get someones attention. Take the dollars that would normally be withheld and put it in a savings account. At the end of the year when you file your taxes you will have the money to pay your taxes.
It's illegal! Read your w2. Can't do that! Just pick better people who Will listen!
How is it illegal? Its a plan I would get behind. Its probably the only thing that would make them sit up and take notice of how fed up we really are.
I can guarantee you would sit up and take notice when the IRS starts seizing your bank accounts and putting liens on your property. Go ahead and try that, let us all know how it works out for you. You can write letters from federal prison still.
We don't have representatives. We have mis-representatives. We elected them to do a job that they have completely failed to do. We cannot fire them mid-term. We can only vote them out of office at the next election.
Here it is. December 28, 2012. Only 3 more days to go in the year and Congress has not yet decided on the tax rules for 2012. This is like changing the rules after the game is complete. How is the average tax payer supposed to plan for adequate withholding if he doesn't know what the tax rate will be? Most people don't have 3% - 5% of their taxable income sitting around ready to pay the IRS on 15 April, just to make up for the differance in the tax rate. Or $500 per kid that they'll lose for the child tax credit.
This inability to accomplish anything is pure incompetence on the part of our elected officials, irrespective of their party affiliations. Vote them ALL our. Demand an amendment for term limits - 2-1/2 terms for the House and the Senate, just like the Presidency.
If we did our jobs with the same results as Congress, we would be fired and bankrupt!
No you know why businesses are stockpiling money instead of expanding.