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Subscribe to RSSUpdated at 5:00p.m.ET: The United States on Wednesday edged closer to the fiscal cliff as Congress waited for President Barack Obama to return from vacation in Hawaii and make one final attempt to avoid huge tax hikes and spending cuts in the New Year.
In the absence of Obama, there was no sign of either side in Congress making an effort to strike a deal. The corridors of the Capitol building were empty except for an occasional police officer, and members' office doors stayed locked.
House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner has not yet set a date for bringing House members back to Washington from their Christmas break, an aide of the Republican leader said. That makes the timing of a vote on any budget deal before December 31 more difficult.
The Boehner aide also said there were no plans for new talks between the top Republican in Congress and Obama, who flies overnight and is due back in the White House on Thursday morning.
The inaction notwithstanding, there was still just enough time to prevent a fiscal crunch that would upset global financial markets and likely push the United States into recession.
Reports of lackluster retail holiday sales added to the urgency for a deal. Shoppers might be spending less this holiday season in fear of looming income tax increases. U.S. stocks fell on Wednesday, dragged lower by shares of retail companies.
President Obama and Congress are set to return to Washington to hopefully reach a deal on averting the fiscal cliff before the New Year. Luke Russert and NBC News' Kristen Welker and Mark Murray discuss.
A modest, last-minute measure in Congress to avoid deep spending cuts set for January 1 and most of the tax hikes could pass the Democratic-controlled Senate by the New Year, although Republicans would need to agree not use a procedural roadblock known as a filibuster.
But senators probably would not make the effort unless there was a strong signal from Boehner that the House would find a way to go along.
A Senate Democratic aide downplayed chances for votes this week in the Senate, but suggested there could be legislative movement at the weekend.
"We can't do anything until Republicans either give us the 60 votes," which are needed to advance legislation without long procedural delays, or allow a short-cut that lets bills pass on a simple majority vote in the 100-member chamber.
The focus in Congress is shifting from broad deficit reduction to narrower efforts to avert the immediate shock of the December 31 cliff dive.
"This is the (emergency) scenario that we have long believed would rise in probability the closer we go to December 31, which essentially calls for extending all the rates for those individuals making under $200K and households under $250K and does not address the debt ceiling or the deficit," analyst Chris Krueger of Guggenheim Securities wrote in a research note.
Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, who is retiring at year's end, told MSNBC that $250,000 "is too low of a threshold" for raising income taxes.
She said that in conversations she has had with some Senate Democrats, "they are saying maybe more in the $400,000 to $500,000 category."
Obama himself recently offered to raise the threshold to $400,000, before negotiations with Boehner broke off.
Clock ticking
But even if a handful of Senate Republicans support Democrats on a measure to avoid the worst of the fiscal cliff, time is short.
When the Senate returns on Thursday it is due to work on a disaster aid bill to help New York and New Jersey recover from Superstorm Sandy and other measures.
Recommended: GOP willing to bend on issues after election
In the Republican-controlled House, any bill that raises taxes on anyone would need a rare bipartisan vote to win approval.
All 191 Democrats might have to team up with at least 26 Republicans to get a majority if the bill included tax hikes on the wealthiest Americans, as Obama is demanding.
Some of those votes could conceivably come from among the 34 Republican members who are either retiring or were defeated in the November elections and no longer have to worry about the political fallout.
An alternative is for Congress to let income taxes go up on everyone as scheduled. Then, during the first week of January, lawmakers would strike a quick deal to reduce them except on people in the highest brackets.
They would also pass a measure putting off the $109 billion in automatic spending cuts that most lawmakers want to avoid.
Once the clock ticks past midnight on December 31, no member of Congress would have to vote for a tax increase on anyone - taxes would have risen automatically - and the only votes would be to decrease tax rates for most Americans back to their 2012 levels.
Americans' optimism that Obama and congressional leaders will reach a budget agreement before January 1 has waned in recent days, according to a Gallup poll.
President Obama is cutting his Hawaiian vacation short and heading back to Washington just a day after Christmas. Meanwhile, Congress returns tomorrow with just days left to reach a deal before the looming January 1 fiscal cliff. NBC's Kristen Welker reports.
Fifty percent believe a deal will be reached, a drop of 7 percentage points from the previous week, and 48 percent are doubtful. The poll was taken just after talks ran into trouble last week.
Starbucks Chief Executive Howard Schultz is urging workers in the company's roughly 120 Washington-area coffee shops to write "come together" on customers' cups on Thursday and Friday to send a message to politicians.
"We're paying attention, we're greatly disappointed in what's going on and we deserve better," Schultz told Reuters.
Copyright 2013 Thomson Reuters. Click for restrictions.
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This fiscal cliff is all Obama and the libs... they are responsible for any tax hikes and all the cost increases since 2008.
You obviously do not have a clue how Govt works. Thanks
Johnny, you obviously have no idea that the libs have been in control of the house and senate starting in 2007; Harry Reid will let house bills sit on his desk, has not passed a budget in four years, and the libs have been driving the bus. This is all on the libs, sorry, drive home safely.
Drew,
Are you really as clueless as you appear?
Let's look at the last 12 years.....
From 2000-2006, the GOP controlled the Presidency, Senate, and House.
From 2007-2008, the GOP controlled the Presidency
From 2010- Now, the GOP controlled the House
So there were two years where the GOP was in complete minority......six years where the Dems were in complete minority. Guess what....those six years are the exact time when the majority of the spending was done that contributed to our debt (wars, tax cuts, Med, Part D).
To say that our spending problems are "libs" problems is just plain foolish....there is ZERO evidence supporting it.
And notice when the two worst years were in both the deficit and economics? It was when the GOP had the minority.
So boehner cannot get the job done he was hired to do and throws up his hands and walks out. He did this because if they cut a deal they are seen as raising tax rates which they took a pledge to never ever do. BUT, if they let it go over the cliff and everything expires without their input, and Obama comes back and gives those making 250thous and under a tax cut, then the republicans can be seen as giving a tax cut and not raising taxes.
It is that freaking simple people.
BUT, IF we go over that cliff we have already been told it could mean a downgrade in our credit rating
AGAIN!
So look for a last minute stop gap measure folks, carrying the bulk of it into the new year just in time for the next debt ceiling fight and the next threat of shutting the government down. After all, what would the media do without all the hype and drama?
So Peter...I am missing your point here....are you trying to suggest that citizens shouldnt each have an equal vote anymore?
Wednesday, July 27, 2011
Bush vs. Obama on Spending:
It's No Contest
The No. 1 Republican
talking point these days seems to be this: Profligate spending by President
Barack Obama is the reason we face a debt-ceiling crisis.
Any rational,
reasonably well informed citizen should know that is not true. But prominent
GOPers still chant it like a mantra. God only knows how many otherwise sane
Americans are starting to believe it.
That's why a chart in Monday's
New York Times should be sent to every household in the US of A. It
shows, in clear, indisputable numbers, that policy decisions by Republican
president George W. Bush led to spending that dwarfs financial outlays under
Obama. (See the chart at the end of this post.)
In fact, the cost of just
the Bush tax cuts ($1.8 trillion) exceeds the costs of all spending under Obama
($1.4 trillion).
The final tally--$5.07 trillion of spending under Bush,
$1.44 trillion under Obama. By the way, those figures for Obama are projections
from 2009 to 2017. In other words, both presidents are being judged in
eight-year time frames. And Bush "wins" the spending contest in a runaway.
Johnny, Bush retired in 2008. The debt was $10 trillion when he left, a rise of $5 trillion over 8 years. Obama has been President since 2009. The debt is now $16 trillion and they want more. Obama, Pelosi, and Reid could pass anything they wanted to until January 2010 when they lost a senate seat to the republicans. So if what you say is true, why did the libs refuse to do anything about it when they were truly unopposed in everything they wanted to pass?
Johnny, does everyone wear tin foil hats in YOUR Alternate Universe?
Drew....Bush's trainwreck didnt finish when Obama got into the Whitehouse.
Johnny.....YOu are not anywhere close to the truth or factual. Please go get educated on the subject and come back so you don't continually look like an ignorant fool.
John Doe......Just how do you figure it was Bush's train wreck and not the democrats? After all, the democrats wrote authored every bill Bush signed after 2006....a couple of years before the train wreck. How can you blame the GOP now (who have a fraction of the power democrats had before the train wreck) and hold the democrats blameless? Please don't be so hypocritical.
His tax cuts are still in play to this day and we are still even to this day funding a war in a country he picked a fight in. Not to mention we had to stimulate ourselves out of a recession he caused.
Johnny
There must be some real serious Clinton arithmetic in the PROJECTIONS of '14-'17 spending for President Obama's spending to look reasonable.
Even so, why does the White House show defict spending 'til 2020 on its website?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/tables.pdf
Shrub fought 2 wars off budget. Obama included their cost in his budget proposals. If you cannot figure out how the rest of that story goes then have your mommy take away your crayons.
John Doe
If the Bush Tax Cuts are so bad why is Obama and the Democrats fighting so hard to keep them? Shouldn't they be fighting to eliminate them?
Slodon, i dont think they should be eliminated....but I certainly think they need watered down a bit. There has to be some middle ground. As I have said before, we have BOTH a spending and revenue problem. Why does it have to be back to Clinton Era rates? How did that become the standard even for just the rich? Yeah, I think a couple grand a year could hurt the economy, but surely even us middle-class can afford to pay a little more cant we? Its just common sense that if you want to fix a debt problem, attack both the spending and the revenue...or at least it should be. If me or you cant afford something, we have no choice but to eliminate discretional things....for whatever reason, our government as a whole has a hard time seeing straight. Well, correction...they see it...they just have other things distracting them from doing the right thing.
Onerion....That is true.......of course, that only amounts to about 10% of the problem. What about the other 90%?
How soon will the Orange One be sober enough to call the House back in session? When will Cantor get back from a beach holiday with his pool boy?
How soon with Turtleman McConnell submit a bill that he then filibusters (again)??
$200,000 per flight hour for Air Force One and Barry "COMMUTES" half way accross the world for a Photo Op Moment. .....and the DRONES think he's GOD. Truly ASTONISHING!
Please stop looking at things one-sided. How much did us taxpayers pay for that photo op of W on an aircraft carrier to say mission accomplished? It works both ways.
Congressional term limits and chase the special interest groups out of DC.
Why is it such a challenge for the democrats to understand that the GOP in the house were elected to do exactly what they are doing.....force Obama to compromise and address the difficult issues facing the country. Until Obama starts working with the GOP, we will continue to have this stalemate.
Put-ie.
the GOP LOST IN NOV! Why are they too STUPID to understand that? Lost the Wh, and seats in the Senate and House.
Seems they took Akins advice and "self aborted" this past election! (but they will claim it wasn't a "legitimate rape")
Did you forget that Obama was voted in as our President? The word is compromise - on both parts - NOT stand your ground GOP and get nothing done. All these people - from both parties - are supposed to work for the country as a whole - NOT for one side or the other.
That is exactly what is wrong with our country. Republicans and Democrats, after being voted in, are to work for the good of the entire country - NOT for one side!
Herron....Obviously you are not intelligent enough to understand my post and you prove that it is a challenge for you guys to grasp reality. The GOP didn't lose last NOV. Things stayed the status quo. The democrats are again way down from where they were in 2008 and the GOP is pretty close to where it was in 2010. Please start using some common sense, reasoning and critical thinking skills.
The majority of the people, both dems and republicans and you can throw independents and libertarians in there as well if you like, agree we need a balanced approach and also agree with allowing the tax cuts to expire for the 1 percent. HELLO!
Everyone got the message except the republicans? And you wonder why they lost? Yer lookin at it!
I think everyone should go see the Movie "Lincoln", especially all our politicians.
Linda.....If most people agree with the balanced approach, then why is Obama avoiding that approach and refusing any sort of meaningful spending cuts? Republicans have already agreed to increase tax revenues. Now it is the time for the democrats to follow the will of the people. The message couldn't be clearer.
http://www.upworthy.com/why-fiscal-cliff-is-an-incredibly-stupid-metaphor?c=ufb1
Read the posts and you will see why there is no compromise in the Congress. Wow...just wow! American ugliness, viciousness, bullying, and no understanding of a point different from their own.
America is in trouble!
More of the childish tea baggers should have lost in Nov.
8 wasn't enough. And Cantor should have lost, just like Allen West and Joe Walsh!
You got that right!
Wasnt their time. But my guess is in the midterms, your gonna see a watershed event.
President George W. Bush is now on his way to becoming the first full-term president since John Quincy Adams (1825-1829) to not veto a single bill. The result is a congress that has been completely unconstrained in satiating its appetite for pork and corporate welfare. In response, Democratic challenger John Kerry has maligned alleged spending cuts and called for even higher taxes and spending. The consequence is that we now have two parties competing to see which can grow government faster.
From the massive increases in agricultural subsidies in the farm bill of 2002, to the new Medicare prescription drug entitlement of 2003; from the 47% increase in the defense budget, to the 80% increase in education spending, George W. Bush has demonstrated that “limited government” is not part of his political vocabulary.
No argument on that front. Bush governed like a democrat. That is why he had such low ratings at the end of his term.
What items are the liberal left wing patriots willing to cut in order to get american back on track... besides the military that is... can some of you wonderful liberal folks name 10 things they would be willing to reduce or cut that would help us balance the budget
mark...
Hey, you are the yahoos that are saying that 'cuts' have to be done to get America back on track.....we're much more into growing our way to prosperity..not cutting. If cutting is the way to go...tell us what your plan is. If it makes sense, you should be able to sell the public on it. If you are blowing more hot air....you'll be called out for it. There is a reason Boner won't propose specific cuts...he knows he'll lose the argument.
This is why you folks cannot be taken seriously....you cannot even decide WHAT you stand for.
Doctor......We are into growing our way to prosperity. That is why we want the cuts. Nearly every time taxes are raised the economy suffers. Even Obama agrees with that. If you are so concerned about growing out of this, then you would have voted for someone who had a workable plan for the economy instead of Obama who still doesn't have a plan after 4 years.
Even then, we still have to cut spending. We have an artificially inflated economy with deficit spending to such a level that we cannot grow out of it. We have to cut spending at some point. There isn't a credible economist out there that disagrees on that point.
DoctorLogic
What are "we" growing Kemosabe?
MJ...
"We" are growing the economy.....you know, like the Obama economy that grew at 3.1% in the third quarter in 2012. The more people that are employed, the more tax revenue is collected and potentially the less % of taxes need to be collected.
Purposely shrinking the economy makes absolutely no sense....which is why austerity NEVER works. Good Lord, look at the European countries that tried austerity through this latest recession.....didn't work so well for them.
Put....
You keep talking the game but never put any hard numbers behind anything.
Sorry slappy.....there is one fact that you cannot dance around:
GWBush economy was losing 800,000 jobs per month and shrinking at over 9% per quarter.
Obama economy has added over 6 million jobs the last 33 months and is growing at over 3.1% in the last quarter.
Plus....GWBush is the yahoo that signed all this legislation that added to the debt (tax cuts, wars, Med Part D). What NEW legislation has Obama signed that added to the debt? The stimulus bill (that was dealing with the GWBush recession) and what else?
People would have to be idiots to even consider what the GOP has to say...their policies have PROVEN to fail.....over and over again.
Doctor....It still doesn't change the fact that we cannot grow the economy large enough to pay for this. You also don't understand the meaning of Austerity. Austerity is designed to prevent things like Greece. It worked well for them. They are on much better financial footing than they were. What economy would you rather be.....Greece or Germany?
Put...
You are living in a flippin' fantasy land. Why should anyone trust what you have to say? There is absolutely no reason to buy what you folks keep talking about...especially since you never have any non-partisan sources backing up your claims.
Please explain how you will grow us out of a 16Trillion debt... Right now we are spending more then we take in and I think that it is clear that raising taxes on the top 2% will not make up the difference.
What would I cut...
all aid to other countries
Get rid of dept of education and leave that to each state
Fix tax code and reduce IRS staffing by 85%
for starters
What type of sources do you want? There are all sorts of studies and facts to back up my claims. Logic and reasoning also go a long way to prove they are correct as well. What would you like? Debt to GDP ratio? Deficit to GDP? Spending to GDP? Effective tax rates? Job growth and tax revenue growth after tax cuts? Tax revenue decreases (below projections) after tax increases? Tell me which you would like to see.
By letting the Bush Tax cuts end it will finally mean that everyone has to start paying their fair share of taxes. It will mean that for the middle class they will be paying a little more in taxes than they do today, but the big jump will be for the wealthy. Their taxes will close to double.
In order for this country to get out of its financial problems; revenue (taxes) must increase. I don't mind paying a little more in taxes just as long as the wealthy now have to contribute their fair share too.
Think about it...
David.....I think you misunderstand the facts. The wealthy will be paying a tiny bit more while everyone else will have to pay a lot more. The middle class will see their taxes double. The wealthy will see their taxes go up by about 10%. I don't mind paying more if the money was spent wisely. I oppose paying more now because it is just wasted. Why pay more if government will just waste it.
Completely agree! We all must pay our fair share - no matter how much or how little we make.
PutAmerica - You need to re-think and understand. All tax cuts will end.
Wrong! The wealthiest Americans have been paying a smaller tax % than middle Americans when the opposite should be the norm. The Bush tax cuts and loopholes make the wealthiest even richer and they then hide thier money in tax havens so that money never finds its way back intom the economy. Get it now?
Traditionally the more you make the higher youir tax rate? Right? But the opposite has been true infact the wealthy who make alot of thier money thru investments pay a very very low tax rate.
Johnny....That isn't true. Please look up the facts. It simply isn't true. Please go learn about this. Your entire philosophy is based on a lie. The Bush tax cuts didn't create any havens. The wealthy have not been paying a smaller % than middle class Americans. On average, they pay about 6 times higher the rate of federal income tax. Please go research the facts.
I don't know if you folks truly don't understand how an economy works....or if you just don't care. If you take MORE money from people whose wages have been stagnant for a decade or more, you reduce their purchasing power and take even more money out of the economy. This is why unemployment insurance is one of the best stimulus programs because you are guaranteed that all money going out makes its way back into the economy.
If you take more from the top, it has nearly no impact on the economy because that money taken might have been put into the economy...or it could've been saved....or it could've been invested in other countries...or in tax shelters. The people getting the tax break don't need the money so God knows what they'll do with it.....it in essence is throwing money out the window.
Doctorlogic....Taking money from the top or taking money from the bottom both have about the same effect on the economy. The percentage that goes into the economy is about the same.
Put....
This is a patently ridiculous argument...and one that you have ZERO evidence to support your statement. Poor or middle class folks will be use every dollar of a tax break; rich folks may or may not use it. They don't have to so there is no guarantee what they'll do with it. Common sense for God's sake.
Doctor.....OK, use some logic. Where do the poor buy things? Walmart? How much of Walmart's shelves are stocked with things made in China? The poor and middle class might also pay off debt. The rich could use the money to invest. You have no evidence either way.....but at least use some common sense. Taking money from anyone is taking money our of the economy. Cutting spending also takes money out of the economy. We put ourselves in between a rock and hard place and it will take a while to fix this mess.....but first we have to stop making it worse.
Doctorlogic
Growing the economy in GNP?
What about the stagnation in the employment-population ratio?
Congress shouldn't await this guy for anything. All he wants is more of our hard earned dollars to spend spend spend. Would you wait for someone who never had a business, had a budget, earned a paycheck to make a decision of the handling of the American economy and its finances. I think not unless you're at the receiving end of our hard earned "redistributed" dollars, especially from military vets.
Military SOF, Retired.
The rise in spending under Obama is the SMALLEST since Ike.
Just part of the reality the idiots at Fox wont tell the gullible scardy cats!
SOf ret, you just gave us a perfect description of Shrub. He was so dumb that even a MLB team that he was part owner of lost money. Now that takes some real business acumen
Herron....You have been lied to by people that want to deceive you. Don't be so gullible. Technically, it is true, but anyone who is intellectually honest would see through the BS. The only reason that it is true is because of the one time $800 billion tarp bill. It was only meant to be spent one time. Of course Obama spent that $800 billion year after year after year and you want to blame Bush. Please get a grip on reality.
Herron
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200
If one can find the mythical creature known as the "moderate Republican," please introduce it to Nessie and Yeti. Then have it put on the endangered species list.
I would consider Boehner a moderate republican. Is there a moderate democrat or do they all care nothing about the future of the country?
Is that why our speaker of the house signed the Norquist Pledge? A pledge to a man who said he wants the government to be less than 8 percent of GDP? So small you can drown it in a bathtub? You know what that means dont you? These Republicans signed a pledge to a man who wants zero social spending...and SS and Medicare fall into that category.
John....It wasn't 8%, it was 18%....or the same size it was under Clinton. Why do you guys insist on lying?
Woman earning $60K must pay the same tax rate as multi-millionaires, like Presiden Obama! Sounds crazy, but it's true. If a woman is married to a man earning $200K for example, and her salary is $60K, her tax rate will be the same as that paid by multi-millionaires like President Obama, because their total income is now over $250K. You have to be insane to think this is fair.
Well, that would be because they are "rich" according to Obama.
Oh, it's higher. Look at Mitten's rate. Less than 14%. That's the tax rate for folks that make 20k in normal income..
Speaking of Mittens, I wonder if UBS is forced to dissolve, the truth will come out about the Amnesty and Mitten's Swiss accounts!
So you mean a married heterosexual couple earning $250K is "rich", but a married homosexual couple isn't "rich" until they hit $400K (because of DOMA)? It's even more insane to define "rich" based on your sexual orientation, but that's the way the law stands today!
Put...
They are richer than more than 95% of the American public......yeah, that's pretty darn rich, by comparison.
To make matters even more absurd...is that the theoretical couple mentioned above would ONLY pay higher taxes on the $10K over $250K....they'd get the tax cut on the first $250K.
Actually......The would pay more on the $10K over 250, but would pay the same below. They wouldn't get a tax cut. It would remain the status quo.
Put...correct, they'd keep the same cut that they have now.
Dr. Logic, many doctors are heavily in debt but earn 250-300K because they spent 12 years in school to become a doctor. But you want to take his money because you don't make as much? This is income, not wealth or assets. How about YOU go to school, become a doctor and then let everyone dictate how much you get to fork over. I love how the lazy and unemployed are so generous with other people's money. They don't owe you SH!T. They earned their money. Earn your own.
Wise Woman, you could file individual tax returns. In some cases, this would yield lower taxes, but not in many.
djo....
Are you genuinely as stupid as you sound?
Are you actually saying that the 10+ million people who lost jobs in the recession are "lazy"? You are either delusional....or...no, that's pretty much it; you're delusional.
Let's say there is a doctor making $255K (which is alot for a doctor).....that doctor will KEEP the tax cuts she has now on the first $250K and will only pay the whopping 4% increase on the other $5K. Gee.....that is going to break the bank, huh?
Actually, I did go to school...have big loans and yes, they do dictate how much I get to "fork over". It is common sense that if you genuinely want to lower the debt/deficit...you go where the money is. You don't take even more from the purchasing class.
That is funny. If it won't break the bank, then why not go flat tax?
Oh... that's right... you don't believe in ACTUAL equality, just when it suits you.
When you discriminate against wealthier people... that's OK.
Fair share is equal percentage. You make 4M you pay 25% or 1M. You make 100K you pay 25% or 25K.
Simple, no loop holes. Fair. Equal. Like the Constitution intended fair and equal to be.
PLEASE explain how raising taxes will balance the budget. Or even cut the deficit to below 1T???
You can't do it. You would need to raise taxes on the top 2% to 100% AND still cut almost 1T to balance the budget.
Can the House GOP become any more worthless? They are already more worthless than teats on a bull!
Is it true that when Boehner gets a blood test, they don't mention cell count, only proof?
They would be worthless if they just rubber stamped everything Obama wanted. They are doing the job that the voters elected them to do. WHy don't you get onto Obama and ask him to come up with workable balanced solution?
Putty.. Are you paid to post crapola or are you really this lost?
Putty. the GOP LOST in NOv. Lost the WH, and lost both Senate and House seats.
Can you get that Allen West tattoo removed, or will you have it changed into one of Justin Bieber?
Herron.....The entire house was reelected in November with a republican majority. They didn't lose the White House, the incumbent Obama kept it. The GOP is doing the will of the people that put them into office. Why are you trying to deny that truth?
Putty, my lost little boy, The GOP LOST a WHOLE BUNCH of house seats!
So, about that Allen West tattoo. Remove or Biebe it?
The Gop is Not trying to do the Will of the people. Where do you get this Crap. The will of the People, oh yeah, to have the speaker of the house Obstruct congress any way the gop can, so as to push the Whole country over the fiscal cliff putting the United States into a depression Surpassing that of the event of 1939 and recorded history. Oh yeah, that is the Will of the People. Get your head out of your azz and quit clogging up the feed with a bunch of Crap. Are you a paid instigator or are you that arrogant that you can't actually see what is going on right now. The Speaker of the House is Purposely obstructing Congress.
Herron...A whole bunch of house seats? 5 out of 435? That isn't a whole bunch by any standards. Second, the republicans fared a whole lot better than they did in the last presidential election and the democrats fared a lot worse.
Chanctob....Yes they are doing the will of the people. Any fair and reasonable person can see that the republicans are trying to compromise, but they are not able to get anywhere with the current leadership. Please look at the facts instead of the political rhetoric. Obviously you are not paying attention. Didn't Boehner offer plan B and it was too far to the left for the republicans to handle it because they thought they would be voted out if they went for it? Pay attention.
omg your actually lecturing people on politics. you have no Clue. no use wasting the time. you go right on thinking that son. and when your sitting on tuesday holding the bag after boehner obstructs congress till tuesday, you go right on lecturing on weds. one thought for you to pickle. the speaker offered plan b to only the republicans in the house in office, not the Whole house. the gop can't even agree amongst themselves to even bring an offer to the Floor! so if your not making at least 400k a year, come weds, you can complain all you want son, to your speaker, who, omg, is looking out for you. you are either a child, or a republican who just likes to do nothing but agitate and sound intelligent whos got his head so far up boehner's azz that you can't even see how much he's shatting all over you and the rest of the country to protect his billions and a bottle of booze. omg
The math skills are second to none in here.
Can any liberal poster do multiplication or understand fractions?
I'll dumb it down for you.
Raising taxes generates SMALL amounts of revenue.
Obama spends HUGE amounts of money.
Obama has MONSTER deficits each year.
Even with SMALL amounts of revenue, deficits are still TITANIC.
BIG deficits go to COLOSSAL debt.
chanctob, are you a teenage girl with the OMG.
You like totally don't understand politics. It like Obama is a celebrity... so like he is allowed to take your money and do whatever he wants. I mean really... why like even voice your opinion. It's only like the USA.
This isn't about politics. It's about GOVERNING. Something Obama cannot do. He's great at politics. And I applaud him for wanting to save the world and make everything happy and shiny. But we don't live in his alternate universe.
Taxes hurt the economy. Raising taxes on the top 2% will generate 85B tops. Growing the economy 1% will increase revenue 400-500B.
He already raised taxes on the middle class. You just don't know it. In 2013, you start paying for Obamacare. You will take a 2% hit on your take-home pay.
Obama wants your money... not just rich people's money. You are all suckers.
The Republicans are not OBSTRUCTING... they are FIGHTING to protect your EARNINGS. Well for some. Most of you don't earn crap, you just hold out your hands and wait for big-daddy Obama to give you your allowance.
Djo, your sound intelligent, your an idiot. I Make half a mil a year, I'm ready. The President can't do Crap right now. The speaker of the House is Obstructing Congress and should be Impeached! They are not fighting to protect Anybody's earnings. They are fighting to avoid the tax on the rich and protect their Own millions and billions. Ah, Screw it, with your attitude and Insight. We ought to go over the cliff. Let you all whine and figure it out on weds. Some of us are getting tired of trying to pull this country forward. Then people with your attitude and Insight come along. Screw it, Have your fiscal cliff. When its over, the rest of us will impeach the drunk bastard and you can go stand in line at a soup kitchen. You said taxes hurt the economy, so mr insight, do you Realize what taxes are going to go to on tuesday. how about posting Those stats. Income taxes. We already know about obama care and how it works. Tell us about your income tax rate and everyone else's on tuesday 1/1/2013. Go ahead, I am just on the Edge of my seat waiting for the reply. No bull crap now mr insight, speak to the fiscal cliff and Everyone's tax rate on Tuesday, 1/1/2013, speak to it or don't speak at all.
You clowns voted for him. It's his sequestration. I'm looking forward to shorting the market. You can pay more if you want. The IRS will take your money. It won't make a difference. Raising taxes will not make a dent in the deficit let alone the debt.
Obama said his idea of balanced was $3 in cuts for every $1 in revenue. Then he says, I want 1.6T in revenue (after he already raised taxes 500B in Obamacare) over the next 10 years. And I'll cut 1T but not until 2014, and we'll discuss it next year. Such leadership.
But of course, it is always Bush's fault, or the Tea Party, or Boehner.
Someone has to cut up his credit card. There is no alternative. If he stuck to his original offer, it may have passed. Now... I look forward to watching the country fall into recession... because he insists on having his way and driving this country into collapse. I'll take recession over collapse.
And what's with the name-calling. Why do liberals have to name call when they have no way to justify their position? I'm an American. I want what is best for America and my children... and even your children.
But if you insist on destroying the country, there is nothing I can do. I'm a minority. I'm half black, half hispanic and now in the minority on how my tax contributions are spent. I can contribute more than anyone, but don't have any say. Now, some woman in Tampa with 15 kids and no job demands more money from the government because she is too irresponsible to get an abortion... and I have to provide for her.
These aren't elderly people that contributed all their lives. These aren't wounded vets that served and sacrificed for their country. These are FREE LOADERS.
What do you make your half mil a year in? Acting or are you a trust baby? I am sorry, but you are coming across as very uninformed and out of touch with reality. It might be that you are simply uninformed and don't have a clue with what is really going on. Yes, everyone's tax rates are going to go up. Sadly Obama won't make good on his promises and cut spending 3 to 1 like the American people want. If he did, the republicans would be more than happy with that and a deal would be done.
People that anounce their earnings are hysterical. I'm so super successful. But I just want to donate my earning to illegal immigrants because they get a bumb rap. What a riot.
Hey Chanctob, how much extra in taxes have you paid since Obama has been President? And have you taken advantage of any deductions or loopholes in the last 4 years? And what is your effective tax rate?
And the discussion goes silent when the tough questions are asked! ;)
At the 11th hour they'll come up with some unintelligible 'fix' or, at least, a bandage approach to avoiding the tax hits until they can figure out something more permanent. At least, that's the way this current 'drama of the week' would have us believe.
We will just go over the cliff, what's the big deal? We can't agree on anything, so we may as well stick to what we agreed upon in case of disagreement. What a runaround, just like our elected officials. It is beginning to look like you could pick anyone off the street to do as good a job as those we voted for.
Off the cliff? Yes, Really, what's the point? We are already there! Did anyone really expect Obama to do something grand when it comes to fixing the economy? I really don't get it. Has anyone been paying attention to what Obama did in the last 4 years to change the recession around?? If anyone thinks he will do something grand to avoid this so called "Fiscal Cliff", he/she is delusional. I don't expect anything different in the next 4 years that we have not received the last 4 years. Very sad that voters did not see this!
and you are going to blindly defend the republicans to the country's and your own demise. where is the republican congress right now btw. the president can't sign Anything, if congress doesn't vote on something and send it to him. so in these last few days left where the fiscal cliff could be avoided. where is your republican congress, the offices are all dark, the halls are empty. think about it before you talk more bashing about the president. as an Individual. is this Really want you want, your republican congress just sitting at home right now. instead of in washington, hammering out a deal and doing what they was elected for. while the Rest of us, including you, pay for it in less than a week. Is This what you Really want from your republican congress right Now?
We are far more open minded to the current situation than you appear to be. Do you have any idea what is going on at all? Why are you not upset at Obama for holding to his hard line on all of this and refusing to negotiate? He is on vacation as well.
Chanctob---the fiscal cliff IS the compromise. The GOP and the Dems both voted by majority of each party FOR it, and the President signed it. What exactly is so hard to understand about that process? If it wasn't good policy when BOTH parties voted on it, and the President signed it, why did they agree to it? What exactly has changed since then?????
Both parties agreed on it to kick the problem down the road. the repubs thought obama would lose the election. and they get to change obamacare, the budget, social security, medicare, etc. to pay for it. that didn't happen. so now the Country is going to pay for that 'compromise'. look at the stats of what Your and everyone else's Income tax rate will be on 1/1/13. The repubs gambled, they lose. Now the whole country does by that compromise they Thought would get them to the election and win it. It didn't and they didn't. who pays for it now, you, me, the whole country. tell me, while defending the repubs so hard, is That what You really wanted for 1/1/13?
Chanc.....And Obama won the election and republicans have agreed to Obama's last plan. If Obama would have stayed with what he was negotiating during 2011 when this happened last time, a deal would be done. Unfortunately, Obama got rid of most of his cuts and increased his required tax increases beyond what republicans were willing to go.
Yes, I WANT to go over the cliff. The clowns in D.C. will NEVER cut spending otherwise, as proven time and time again. Yes, the GOP thought they could win the WH. Didn't happen. The Dems thought they could take the House. Didn't happen. Now both parties will have to live with the consequences of what they BOTH agreed to. If you think maintaining the status quo is good when we are over $16 trillion in debt and that figure is climbing by the minute, then you have no clue.
And yes, we ALL need to pay for it--not just the richest among us. We ALL have been voting these people into office, and now it is time to pay the piper.
I own a construction company. I'm the guy that employs people and pay them a dam good wage for their hard work. pay their healtcare. I'm a conservative republican, I am so pissed off at my party right now and even more upset with the president. Neither is doing a thing to solve this problem. The whole country from the poor to the middle class and up will pay that compromise on 1/1/2013. And you all say i'm the dumbazz and idiot, have no understanding of whats going on right now. I'm tired of being one of the guys trying to pull this country and people forward. I GIVE up! You all have the answers. Great. Then come Tuesday, it will be what it will be! It's late, I'm getting ready for bed, I don't know about all your armchair politicers, but I Have to get up and go to work in the morning. Families need fed and employees need to work to feed those families, with what little bit they'll have left after you all are, ooops, after you all and congress is done with it on tuesday. Good Night!
mikehataway
you either talk a good story or you just plain don't care. you Want to go over the cliff. How about tell that to the regular common people on tuesday who are just trying to fed their family. wow.
good night. I am more upset now than when I first commented. I give up.
I thought that the tax rates under Clinton was part of the reason he was so successful? And yet you don't want to return to them? Why not?
I agree mike. It's the lesser of two evils. Obama thinks he will get all this extra revenue and be able to blame Republicans. He doesn't understand the massive losses in jobs and the economic repercussions. He thinks taxes = revenue which means more spending.
My friend works for Lockheed... he has to layoff 10,000 people. One company... 10,000 people.
They'll get work because they are super smart engineers.
It totally sucks, but its the only way to cut spending. And cutting spending is the only way to fix America right now.
What we've learned through this complete mess the last 2 years is that complete nutbag radicals like the tea party have absolutely NO business being anywhere near Washington. We wonder why Washington doesn't work when you have a portion of it that wants Washington and government to fail?
That would be the same as being surprised if a football team was losing when their coach outwardly says he wants the team to lose. It is absurd.
No one said that they wanted the economy to lose. That is just more lies perpetuated by the left to take advantage of weak minded individuals. Obama got nearly everything he wanted. Sure the republicans filibustered a lot, but eventually they gave in nearly every time. The problem is that many of us see the correlation between Washington growing that the middle class shrinking and we are tired of funded the waste in government.
It's certainly an epic fail. There isn't a whole lot we can do about it, because I have a suspicion the teaparty backed candidates will be back in 2014. Thank goodness Indiana decided to nix one wannabe in 2012, but the guy lost just from one stray, stupid remark.
Put....
What planet are you living on?!?! House members have outwardly said that if they didn't get 100% of what they want, they'd "grind Washington to a halt". Yep, sure sounds like a team player to me?!?
I nearly choked on my fig newton with this line. "Gave in"....my God, what are you talking about?
The biggest "waste" in government I've seen are the stupid tax breaks for the wealthy that we've witness fail and that we've also witnessed the GOP protect with every fiber of their soul.
You want to ride the government of "waste", why aren't you clammoring for wealthy's taxes to go up? You're then not only saving money you are helping the deficit.
My last line should read....."You want to rid the government of "waste"........"
Doctor......They never said that.....or if they did it was about an certain issue and not intended to mean every issue under the sun. Logically, what you say has to be incorrect, or Obama wouldn't have gotten nearly everything he wanted. And yes, look up the facts and quit believing most of the rhetoric. Republicans filibustered or threatened filibustered numerous times to force negotiations. Sometimes they did it to simply try to force democrats to pay for the cost of the new legislation. Nearly every time though, the GOP gave in. Look at the facts. Prove to me that Obama didn't get what he wanted. Give me 2 bills. The only one that I know about is the most recent Jobs bill. Other than that, Obama got nearly everything he wanted.
Two reasons on your last sentences.
1. Making the wealthy pay more does not mean that the money be used to help the deficit. If you look at Obama's current proposal, it spends the new revenues and doesn't cut the deficit at all. Until the spending is brought back under control (personally, I would like it to be when Clinton was last in office, but that won't happen). Any new revenues just encourage more waste.
2. Increased taxes on anyone nearly always leads to stalling the economy.
Doctor Illogical, Obama ran his campaign in 2008 on cutting the debt in half during his first term. He knew the state of the economy and still claimed he would do this. With a democratic house for the first 2 years, he not only failed to cut anything but added 3T in new debt.
Then over the next 2 years, he added another 3T in new debt. He never passed a budget. Even with a democratic congress.
And now you want to raise tax rates on the wealthy? What do you get? 85B in revenue each year.
How does this help balance the budget when Obama has 1.2T deficits each year.
Good math... now he'll have 1.1T in deficits each year. So in 2016, will have over 20T in debt.
What a great solution. Stop drinking the Kool Aid. Raising taxes generates not even 10% of what you need to balance an Obama spending spree. And only 5% if you want to start paying down some debt.
No Putty, the GOP just refuses to work on ANYTHING that might somehow make Obama look good.
Recall what Turtleman McConnonell said before Obama was even sworn in..
It is amazing how Obama ran his whole campaign and won soley by ensuring most Americans that the wealthy pay a little bit more! Too bad most of the people who voted for him did not realize that by raising the taxes on the wealthy will do nothing to at all to fix our economy and not even put a small dent on our debt. If the voters understood this, maybe they would have thought twice before they voted for him. I blame the Rebublicans for not communicating this deceit effectively! This is, in my opinion, the biggest deception for the American people in history.
Put...
This is just a flat out lie. Obama's proposals have been scored and have shown to lower the deficit and debt over $4trillion in 10 years. Plus, over $1trillion was cut in the 2011 debt ceiling deal. What you are saying is simply false....I don't know if you're doing it purposely, but, it makes you look completely disingenuous.
djo....
This shows how you are either clueless or a complete gasbag. In 2009, Obama passed a budget...look it up; you may become enlightened.
Plus, in your diatribe you COMPLETELY forget to mention that we were dealing with the worst recession in 80 years....caused by a Republican!!
You tell me to stop drinking the "kool aid" when you obviously are drinking something (and I don't think it is kool aid).
Dee....
Oh, people don't like Obama's approach now huh....maybe that's why his approval rating is the highest it has been since his fourth month in office! Give me a break.
Herron....You have a point, but it isn't limited to the republicans. Obama and the democrats refuse to work on anything that might make the republicans look good.
Herron, that's because Obama hasn't proposed anything to make himself look good.
Dee, and starting in 2013, everyone's taxes go up via Obamacare and the 50B a year in hidden taxes.
You won't get any healthcare until 2014 (if ever). But you start paying for it now.
What is inconceivable is how in 2008 Obama ran on cutting the debt in half. Didn't quite get there.
In 2012 Obama runs on raising taxes on higher earners. And suddenly, everyone calls it a mandate.
Where were you guys the past 4 years??? Have you bothered to ask, how does raising taxes solve anything??? No, they just walk around like wind-up toys... Obama won... raise taxes... screw the rich people.
Jeepers, this is tough one to answer......hmmm, let me see. In 2001 George Bush reduced taxes on primarily the wealthy with the promise that the economy will flourish. What did we get rising unemployment, flat wages, culminating in the worst recession in 80 years. Plus is cost over $1 trillion.
So what does raising taxes do? It saves that $1 trillion plus it gives us the ability to actually invest in the economy somewhere else that WILL create jobs and growth.
Yep, that was a tough one.
Logic, sorry it passed... but the house and senate did not adopt a budget resolution or a single spending bill in... so yeah... nice job.
Big deal on lowering the deficit... it is hard to spend more than he does already. If you increase taxes, which he has via Obamacare, then obviously you will cut the deficit... but only by 10% from 1.2T to 1.1T. What a joke!!!
You can't pay the debt down and have a deficit.
Huh? What budget? Are you referring to the one he proposed and was shot down unanimously by both Democrats and Republicans?? Please, enlighten me, what budget has Obama passed??
Did you also forget that it was the housing crisis that started the recession? Did you also forget that the House and Senate were controlled by Democrats while Bush was in office? Really., you go on and blame the Republicans for the recession, RIGHT!
Doctor...Please stick to facts instead of making up lies. Obama's plan will not cut the deficit by $4 trillion.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/04/barack-obama/obama-says-he-will-cut-deficits-4-trillion/
It is about $2.4 trillion and less than $1 trillion of that is cuts. It is very obvious that our problem is in the spending department. Next year we are expected to generate more tax revenues than ever before, with or without the tax increases. Obama himself said that he would go for 3 to 1 spending cuts for revenues, but why is he refusing to honor that?
Did you look at the economy in the years following the tax cuts? They did exactly what Bush claimed they would do. In fact, because of the tax cuts, the federal increased tax revenues. Isn't that what you guys want? More tax dollars to cut the deficit? Bush accomplished that. Please use your logic and apply it to actual facts, not rhetoric.
OK Logic, please take the quiz that no liberal has passed.
1) Obama has had 1.2T in deficit spending each of his first four years... true or false?
2) Regardless of how irresponsible Bush was, Obama claimed he would cut the debt in half in 2008 and has added 6T in new debt. True or false?
3) Raising taxes on earners over 250K will generate (at Obama's estimation) 85B a year? True or false?
4) If Obama has 1.2T in deficit spending and get 85B in tax revenue, his deficit will be 1.115T? True or false?
5) If Obama cuts spending 1T each year (of course he is proposing 100B a year) he still has a deficit? True or false?
6) If Obama has a deficit and not a budget surplus, the debt cannot go DOWN. True or false?
Please... enlighten us with your wisdom oh might Doctor Logic.
Yes, and that proves the point I have been making about Obama's deception to many of the uninformed voters. What would that approval rating be, the 51% that voted for him with the promise of real change? The greatest deception ever! Wait til the voters see what is coming after the new year? They will not see it coming! We will see where his approval rating will be after the first few months in the new year!
What can we do to get more Jobs in America?
What can we do to live within our means?
What can we do to fix a bloated tax code?
I hope that john bonehead the D C drunkerd is left out of thr fiscal meetings. he is liable to blow his whiskey breath around the meeting room and catch the place on fire, or he may start the drunken cyring and drown all the people present. john bonehead the fire water dancer!!!!!!.
Maybe Obama should be left out of the fiscal process all together, he really is good for nothing! Sorry to be so harsh but that is how I see it from what I witnessed from his performance these past 4 years (no budget, record spending and record debt, more divisiveness etc..).
Right. I already pay 5 times the taxes the average American pays because I earn over $250k. Now the argument is I should pay more? I don't get anything more for my increased payments. This is the only system I can think of where paying more doesn't result in more benefits. If I am expected to pay more of the debt than the next American why shouldn't I have more of a say in how that money is spent?
You are not paying your fair share......of course the democrats never define what fair share means.
So, why did your idiots sheriff let an openly bisexual woman beat out the Teabagger Clown Parker??
Hey, I bet you're really one of those $30k/year "Scottsdale millionaires".
No boy Herron I'm the one that makes you clean up my back yard for a year for $30,000 so you can afford to pay your kids to eat either then just supporting them on your Burger King employee check you get every two weeks instead, really Herron you loser.
We shouldn't be arguing how much the rich, middle class or poor should pay. We should be arguing how well the money is being used. If it is being wasted, then we shouldn't pay more. If it is being used well then we should pay more. Can anyone honestly say that the government isn't wasting a ton of money?
Good thing that the GOP deal means HUGE cuts in military spending in less than a week, You must be VERY happy!
Moderate republican ...is there such a thing
Congress is full of uncaring boobs who are just interested in reelection so they can continue to live on the dole of our money. It’s about time they worked for the people and not for their own personal interest. That goes for republicans, democrats and tea party laggards. We have a new class of welfare kings and queens....wealthy senators and congresspeople
Of course the govt. wastes alot of money. Why else would it cost MORE than double to run it than it did just 13 years ago???????