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Subscribe to RSSUpdated 5:35pm ET Even as President Barack Obama and House Speaker John Boehner struggle to find a way to avoid income tax increases in the New Year on almost all households, a separate set of tax increases which Obama signed into law as part of the 2010 Affordable Care Act (ACA) will begin to affect workers, investors and employers on Jan. 1.
Speaker of the House John Boehner provides an update on the fiscal cliff negotiations, placing pressure on the White House to reveal how they intend to compromise with House Republicans on spending cuts.
Even if Boehner and Obama reach a deal on the “fiscal cliff,” $24.6 billion in 2013 Obamacare tax increases must take effect on Jan. 1 in order for the carefully designed health care overhaul to function in budget terms as its supporters promised it would: not adding anything to future budget deficits, but, according to an estimate by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), reducing cumulative deficits by $132 billion between 2010 and 2019.
The Obamacare tax increases which begin on New Year’s Day are:
- A 2.3 percent tax on manufacturers and importers of medical devices.
- A limit on the tax deductibility of medical expenses for people who pay some of their medical costs out of pocket.
- A limit on tax-sheltered health flexible spending accounts.
- An increase in the Medicare payroll tax on single earners making more than $200,000 and married couples making more than $250,000.
The delicate balance of tax increases and spending increases in Obamacare will work only if Congress allows the tax increases to take effect, so they can offset the cost of substantial new insurance subsidies and other Obamacare outlays.
But some Senate Democrats are trying to delay at least for one year the tax on medical device manufacturers, which will raise nearly $2 billion in new revenue in 2013 and $20 billion over the next seven years.
President Barack Obama has no public events planned for Tuesday and not many planned for the remainder of the week. Many at the White House and in Congress believe, the less anyone campaigns publicly, the better their chances at striking a deal. The Daily Rundown's Chuck Todd reports.
In a letter Monday, Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., Sen. Kay Hagan, D-N.C. and others asked Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to work to postpone the medical device tax.
Both Klobuchar and Hagan voted for the ACA and Minnesota is home to one of the biggest medical device makers, Medtronic.
A delay in the tax could be part of the year-end fiscal package. “My guess that it would be part of bigger deal before the end of the year,” Klobuchar told NBC News Tuesday.
The Democrats calling for delay are emphasizing the need for medical device industry jobs.
“We’re focused on this because there’s a number of small start-up companies (which would be affected by the tax),” Klobuchar said. The medical device tax was set to raise $40 billion over 10 years “and then reduced in half without real negotiation about how it would affect jobs and the industry. So this one, above all to me, cries out for a change.”
Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., shares the latest on fiscal cliff negotiations.
She said the IRS regulation spelling out exactly how the tax will be collected and enforced was issued last week toward the end of the year “without giving them (the medical device firms) time to figure out how to comply. So we’re simply at this point looking for a delay and if we can make some changes to reduce or repeal it, that would be the goal,” Klobuchar said.
Hagan said, “There’s so much innovation in this field right now and they do create so many good jobs in our country that we have the risk of losing these jobs to Ireland and to many other countries. And that’s the problem,” said Hagan, who is up for re-election in 2014.
When she added that the tax would have “an adverse effect on jobs throughout our country,” she was asked whether the tax – after the one-year delay that she and Klobuchar are requesting – would have an equally adverse effect on jobs in 2014. “We can certainly look at that over time,” she said.
J.C. Scott, senior executive vice president of government affairs for the Advanced Medical Technology Association said, "We appreciate Sen. Klobuchar and Sen. Hagan's leadership on this issue and also appreciate the broad bipartisan support for preventing the implementation of the device tax which is slated to go into effect Jan. 1. Delay of the tax is an important step, but Congress must fully address the device tax as it works to develop a long-term solution to help our economy move forward, reduce our debt and reform our tax code."
Fmr. Gov. Haley Barbour, R-Miss., and NBC News' Chuck Todd join a conversation on the fiscal cliff proceedings. Barbour says he thinks the GOP should accept for a raise in tax rates for the country's wealthiest for a broader package that deals with entitlement reform.
The industry group said that the U.S. medical technology industry supports nearly 2 million jobs and that nearly 43,000 jobs might be at risk if the tax takes effect.
But a Senate Finance Committee aide told NBC News Tuesday, "Medical device companies are expected to enjoy trillions of dollars in growing sales over the next decade, with profit margins that would make Warren Buffett blush. Health reform is providing the medical device industry with 30 million new customers and Medicare is the industry's largest paying customer. Particularly at a time when we're all working to cut our debt, there's no need to single out any industry for a special carve out."
If the call from Democrats such as Klobuchar for delay and “reduce or repeal” reflects a weakening of support for Obamacare’s revenue raisers, that could be worrisome for both deficit reduction and cost reduction since both of those were goals of Obama’s health care overhaul.
Even as they voted for the health care overhaul in 2010, some congressional Democrats said they thought that another one of the tax increases in the law, the tax on high-cost “Cadillac” health insurance plans would never fully take effect because Congress would water it down or repeal it before 2018 when it is set to effect.
Hannah Foslien / AP
Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D Minn., speaks at an election night event at the Crowne Plaza on Tuesday, Nov. 6, 2012 in St. Paul, Minn.
If Democrats delay, reduce or repeal the medical device tax, then the ACA will not cut costs as much as its proponents and the CBO predicted it would.
Senate Democratic Whip Dick Durbin of Illinois made exactly that point in comments to reporters Tuesday: “I’ve met with medical manufacturers in my state. And I think many of them are going to face some serious hardships when it comes to their competitive edge and research. But I’ve also told them quite frankly, ‘We’ve got to make up the revenue. If we’re going to walk away from any part of this revenue, we have to find another source.’”
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We should pass this so we can see what is in it (simply the most as(s)inine statement every made by a politician)!!! Now even the left is second thinking it! Too late!!
But I thought we were PROMISED that if you made less than $250,000 your taxes would not go up? I guess this proves that the wool was pulled over your eyes and you lemmings believed everything your messiah told you. But now that ObamaCare is the law of the land NOW you will find out what it is going to cost you. We TRIED to warn you but you just didn't believe us......
All I can say is bend over and grab your ankles - you are getting ready to be pounded and your government doesn't even have the courtesy to say "thank you".
LOL......the Progressives are now out if force calling for delaying the 2.3% Medical devices TAX increase which will mean about 30,000 Medical Equipment/Device jobs will be lost if it goes into effect.
HEYA....Progressives....READ LEGISLATION BEFORE YOU VOTE YEA instead of listening to folks who drafted the dad gum thing....like Peppermint Patricia !!!!
Yep, ALL Americans are going to be TAXED regardless of what Mr. Obama promised during his campaign stops.
Why not do the right thing, terminate ObamaCare in it's entirety.
Those 30K of job losses you quote..
"A Bloomberg Government analysis finds the study is not credible. Its assumptions are flawed, in part because it exaggerates the degree to which spending on health is affected by price increases." - Bloomberg Businessweek
"The medical device tax isn't going to result in lost jobs if industry stakeholders play it right, according to speech therapy device maker Glottal Enterprises' CEO." +MassDev
Lyn: You just keep believing that. Just keep believing.......... And I also look forward to seeing pigs fly.
BTW, if it WASN'T going to have a huge negative effect why are even DEMOCRATS trying to stop this tax from taking effect? Sometimes all that is necessary to see the light is to simply open your eyes...
LynB66
You had better tell those senators they are wrong and they don't know what they are talking about or voting for.
There are no taxes what so ever in ObamaCare. The only people Obama wants to pay more in taxes are the top earners. Everything else is a fee, a surcharge, a value add, but not a tax. It is not just that we had to pass ObamaCare to find out what was in it, we needed to pass it so they would have a reason to finish writing it. Which by the way, is still ongoing. But lets be fair, this is such a great piece of legislation that one of the first orders of business for Congress was to exempt themselves from it.
Keep watching folks,These Democrats that are questioning the agenda will probably get the AXE We will now see what happens to Democrats that break ranks with the great leader.
Rick: Can you REALLY be that naive? It is in the bloomin' ARTICLE?!?!?
A "great piece of legislation"? But nobody has even READ it yet!! How can you say something is "great" when it hasn't been READ and hasn't been implemented yet? That is like saying the mechanic is "great" and your car is now running great BEFORE you even take it to the mechanic!! You CAN'T say something is "great" before it has even been implemented!!
Sometimes being informed is the biggest step to know what is going on - I suggest you become informed.
ProBusiness,
Do you have anything to refute lyn? ...besides your own opinion. Are there even 30,000 medical device jobs?
If everybody is in the same boat, domestic manufacturers or importers, what's the difference? It's not like it affects competitiveness. I don't understand why this would cost jobs.
Pro,
I think Rick was being sarcastic.
Oh, for crying out loud. There will never be a "right time" to raise taxes on anything. Just bite the bullet and get on with it! Or shall we punt our ever-increasing debt football even farther down the road?
SmBusOwner: Do I have anything to refute Lyn? Ummmm. Yes. It is the article above? Did you REALLY just ask my that question? Did you REALLY just ask me if I have anything to refute Lyn and it is in the article we are responding too? Did you REALLY just do that?
And THEN as if you could make yourself look even MORE out of touch with reality state you don't understand why this would cost jobs? Have you ever heard of Marginal Cost? I REALLY suggest you take an economics course - you are missing the basic knowledge of economics that even my dog understands. I suggest you register at your local Community College - you will REALLY need to have some basic understanding of how an economy works to succeed in this world.
Look, I support the ideas in ACA, but as soon as legislators start to cherry pick out the pay-fors out of it, it's going to be a drain. It also makes the patchwork of laws exempting doctors from Medicare paycuts (how long has that been an annual festival), and anything else more and more ridiculous. We'll have nothing but one cliff after another.
I say we let all of the Bush tax cuts eventually expire. I, like many of us here think that we're just not paying for our government, and all of us are probably going to have to pay more if we still want what we get from our government. If we don't want a cliff, fine, gradually raise the rates back over 5 years. In the end, we'll be better off. Throw some spending cuts in there too. I'd sure like to see something close to a balanced budget before I retire (20-25 years).
AG: Do you realize that if we spent as a country the same amount we spent in 2007 we would have a balanced budget (or very close to it) right now? So how do we have the SAME tax revenue as 5 years ago but spending has gone up 50%?
Maybe that is because we don't have a tax revenue problem - we have a spending problem. So no reason for taxes to even go up at all. Bite the bullet? You are right. Let's bite the bullet and cut spending back to 2007 levels. There, I just balanced the budget.
Pro,
Did I miss something? Lyn said your "30,000" job loss was bunk with a citation.
You ridiculed her.
I said you should defend your claim.
If I missed it in the article, then sorry, but I thought it just had different people claiming there would be "job losses" without stats. (and I don't feel like re-reading the article)
Pro,
A good part of the "spending" difference was that Obama actually counted the wars in current spending, rather than unaccounted "emrgency" spending. So there's that.
There's that other thing called the economy that was a little different in 2007.
All right, I looked back at the article and there is a proponent that says the "medical technology industry" "supports" 2 million jobs and that 43,000 jobs "might be at risk." I'm surprised by the number of jobs, but you also have to wonder how broad "medical technology" is compared to "medical device" and what exactly does "support" mean. Why not say "employs"? ...unless it doesn't mean that. Same thing about "at risk." Does that mean "will be lost"? I find that hard to believe: that a 2% tax will cost 2% of the labor force.
I must be the only one still here :-)
Rick #1.6, I agree - The only people that will pay into this is the 2% 200, 250, in taxes if we the American people can get the Mega Rich to pay their fair share, personally speaking I think we should start a National lottery !!!!!!!!!
SmBusOwner: I'm still here, but don't really have anything to add. ProBusiness has a point, but so do you.
Everyone should pay their fair share, so I agree that all of "W's" tax cuts should expire so we as a Nation can pay for our bills, also all loopholes should be closed that allows the Super Rich to collect tax-free interest income on municipal notes and bonds. Have a nice night guys-Salute !!!
How much do you think got paid to these senators and congressmen to repeal this $20 billion deduction? Why in heaven's name do we reelect these people? They are all grafters and on the take.
Eliminate ALL deductions, lower rates, and let true capitalism take hold as opposed to congressionally purchased/bribes/graft, whatever for special interest exemptions and deductions, business, union or whatever. The politicians can resell them all again in the future so it should be in their interest to go for it.
(Flame sings) Its only just begun...
Dems, it took you this long to say... "oops" If they delay it or repeal it, the income from it will be severely reduced and have to be made up somewhere... I don't see it being delayed, reduced or cancelled... Like it or lump it... Obamacare is a TAX... I didn't say that... SCOTUS did... This is what you voted Obama in for... welcome to the real world. Hey Pigotry, Feisty Redhead... where you at?... Obama needs defense.. (Sounds of Football pads being donned)
PatrioticAmerican, do you really, really consider $250,000 super rich? Are you so darn poor that this is your definition?
And can you, as one of the obvious libs, define your favorite term 'fair share'? Always stated (because I know you have made your living by spouting the Dems line) but never defined. Any chance you know what you are spouting?
Patriotic American U.S.A.
"Everyone should pay their fair share"
Does this mean everyone should pay taxes? You spell out the "rich" people who aren't paying their fair share (when the 1% pay more taxes than the other 99%). How about the people who get refunds that are more than they pay in? How about the 47% who don't pay any taxes? If we are going to say fair then everybody needs to pay for the services they receive. I am not in the top tax rate -- would love to be -- but then I would be demonized and would be told that I'm not paying my fair share. The rich do have to subsidize the poor -- but the rich should not subsidize everyone and we should only have around 15% of people not paying taxes (people in poverty).
"Let the rich pay taxes so I can have that brand new flat screen TV." "I don't have any obligation to pay for my use of government services because I want an XBox 360." Everyone has the obligation to pay taxes if they use ANY government services. Nobody should get a bigger tax refund than what they paid in. Let's face it -- the tax system is broken and needs to be fixed.
Some of the numbers Obama put in place are vaporware -- similar to state gov's raising taxes on cigarettes to put financial hardships on users in hopes they quit, using that money to help fund "quit smoking programs", and then selling bonds against the future income of the taxes. It just isn't going to work in the end. And wanting health care costs to go down while raising taxes on health care products -- kind of funny if you ask me.
ProBusiness
Rick: Can you REALLY be that naive? It is in the bloomin' ARTICLE?!?!?
Try reading my post again. You totally missed my point. Can you spell sarcasm?
They should let the taxes come into affect. The medical device companies can more than afford the tax! I'll use a popular republican line, "Noone deserves to make twenty five dollars an hour to tighten nuts and bolts". The average salary for those companies range from 75,000 to 100,000 dollars a year!!Want to know why healthcare costs so much?
And the major problems with Obama Care are beginning to surface. It's only the beginning of what could be a complete disaster to everyone's healthcare, just like we expected.
Rick-3416939....."There are no taxes what so ever in ObamaCare. The only people Obama wants to pay more in taxes are the top earners. Everything else is a fee, a surcharge, a value add, but not a tax."
Duuuuuh !!! The SCOTUS ruled that the ObamaCare MANDATE is a TAX.
If SCOTUS did not rule that, ObamaCare would be in a closet gathering DUST and not TAXES.
Randy,
Business passes on taxes in the form of higher prices. When the prices are forced somewhat higher than what it costs to import, businesses either close or move out of the country. Also, when the lowest price of any product increases too much, people have a tendency to quit buying altogether. It's that simple.
Raising taxes may seem to raise revenue, at least until taxes are raised too much, then revenue actually decreases. Anytime you raise taxes, you take money out of the fast lane of turnover into one slow turn over.
Lower taxes means more spending by individuals and business.
KKWilson
I talked to my wife's insurance agent. He said that once everything is known the majority of people are going to be very unhappy.
The question is will they continue to follow the Democrats misdirecting of their anger. My answer, probably, even though republicans had nothing to do with the bill, except to try to stop it.
Ido, one Rogue "conservative" judge was all it took to make that one up.
Trickle
Everyone should pay something. When they don't, they get the delusions that everything is free or someone else with more should pay for them.
Every union entity that has infleunce has already secured waivers from this unread CFK! Now it's up to the bag-holders to pay the piper!
Ok either the dems support obamacare or they dont, this is what they wasted 4 yrs passing and nothing else so DEMS YOU OWN IT STAND UP AND BE PROUD !
You built it, you own it. Now deal with the consequences.
Dr's got the news earlier this month that reimbursements for Medicare for 2013 would be reduced by 20-38%, don't see senators clamoring to fix that. I'd love just a 3% tax/reduction! As medicare reimbursement rates go down the many insurance companies that use CMS as a baseline for their rates will also drop their rates accordingly. Someone gets stuck paying for Obamacare as there is no free lunch out there. Guess the medical equipment manufacturers donated more campaign dollars.
A tax of 2.3% is going to put thousands of people out of work???....the margins are that small for the manufactures of medical devices??? Sorry I just don't believe that.
But if they want to stop this tax then cut the spending by a similiar amount...what's wrong with that???
OH NO!!!! You liberals won the Obamacare...You liberals were hard core. It's the law of the land. It must implement in full so that Americans can see what you have done to this country. Democrats WANT tax increases. Democrat voters gave Obama the tax increase mandate.
Don't back track now. You said this was what was good for America.
Why are you changing your minds? Tax increases kill jobs? You said that wasn't true. Taxes doesn't kill jobs according to liberals. Ask your politicians who got bought off.
The Democratic Party is all about taxes. But they just don't want them called taxes. We are living in the age where tax is becoming a bad word, so new words are being used by politicians for why the government is taking more of our money. ObamaCare is an entitlement that has some convoluted tax schemes put in place to pay for it, such as a tax on tanning beds. Which Democrats could have called a tanning bed restoration fee, or an ultraviolet containment fee, or perhaps Tanucasian fee. Lets face the fact that no Democrat controlled congress has put forth a balanced federal budget in over 40 years, and there isn't another in sight. The Democrats have absolutely zero track record for fiscal responsibility, but they do love taxes, spending, and let us not forget borrowing. But when it gets called a tax and they are the ones facing the blame, they need to delay it until they can figure out how to blame Republicans, or give it a more palatable name.
Remember when Pelosi said " We have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it"?
Now the Dems say "We have to borrow and spend the money now and someone can figure out how to pay for it in 20 or 30 years".
SmBusOwnerinNY
There was never any chance that it wouldn’t be a drain. I would like to say that this bill wasn’t well thought out, but in truth, it wasn’t thought out at all. For the most part, they slapped a bunch of words on a whole lot of pages and rammed it through, regardless of what the majority of the public wanted, with the idea that they could straighten it out later. I personally am at a point where I think they should have to leave it alone. They passed it, now live with it. But they know as well as I do that if they don’t soften it, they will be on the unemployment line before it’s all over with. I suspect that regardless of any softening they do to the bill, they are still going to find themselves unemployed because most of the promises they may (you’ll get to keep your doctor, you’ll get to keep your insurance, etc.) were nothing more than lies spewed to try and get people on board.
I have to disagree with you on the idea that “we’re just not paying for our government.” When agencies have enough money to provide expensive “training” events held in Las Vegas; pay outlandish travel costs for trips that had very little to do with government business; pay 2-4 times what an item is worth; back ill-fated companies with billions of taxpayer dollars; pay their workforce 25+% above market wages; give countries like Egypt enough money to purchase 20 some F-16s, pay out thousands and thousands of dollars to apologize for a video made by an individual; print and spend billions for “stimulus” funds, much of which went overseas, etc., they don’t need more money. They need budget classes. They need better morals. They need to understand it’s not their money they are spending with such glee and abandon, it’s ours (well, ok – it’s also China’s).
As to a balanced budget by the time you retire, that's something we would all love to see. However, it is more pipe dream than not. If they can't control their spending, they will never be able to balance a budget. The tax hikes they are requestiing will run the government for 9 days (scary thought) and will not touch the deficit. If they don't stop the spending spree, we're just going to end up deeper in debt.
Kenn the Dem,
Yes, an excise tax of 2.3% will have a huge effect on medical device manufacturers. As a medical device manufacturer of new devices, I am happy to make a profit of 1 or 2% of total sales. This is because my investment into my company will hopefully yield more in the future. I have lost money in 3 of the last 4 years.
The problem with this tax is that it is paid on sales, not on income. The example is that if I have sales of $10 million, I have to pay a tax of $230k. This has to be paid even if I lose money for the year. Regular corporate taxes are only paid on profit, so if I lose money at least I don't have to pay income taxes.
So yes, it's a big deal to me. I have already cut 5 full time assembly jobs this quarter in order to prepare for the reduced income due to the tax.
The other problem is that I have to plan as if the tax will be effective on Jan 1. If I don't pay the taxes starting on 1/15, I have to pay a penalty.
Larger companies, like Cook and Stryker already took steps to reduce their domestic headcount in order to prepare for the expected additional costs as part of the ACA.
If the American people knew exactly how many taxes, fees and regulations that are built into Obamacare they would be astonished and angered, which is why we're being fed the revelations of these hidden taxes and fees a couple at a time so as not to provoke our anger.
The bottom line is that when fully enacted, Obamacare costs will impact each and every one of us. There will be no escaping these tax increases for anyone regardless of income level because Obamacare will eventually cost around 1 trillion a year to administer.
This will, of course, lead to healthcare rationing and denials of treatments coupled with a diminishing population of doctors, nurses, and facilities. Our hospitals wil eventually begin to resemble 3rd world facilities with people lying on dirty mattresses in the corridors.
Obama's claims regarding how Obamacare costs won't impact the middle class and the poor and that people can elect to keep their existing plans, etc. will be exposed as the lies he foisted on the gullible to garner their support. Appropriately, it is these gullible that voted for Obama that will suffer the most.
It's no wonder the witch Pelosi wanted this legislation passed before anyone could actually examine it.
Justicenonexistent, Bravo, very well said. It is nice to see some intellectual debate on this site vs all the rhetoric.
@armurrary: Good post (I gave you my vote). I think what I was missing here was the disproportionate effect that this tax has on the smaller companies (like yours...excellent explanation by the way). Those of us who follow the health care industry only have access to the financials of firms which are listed on the stock exchange...they of course, because of their size, do not face the challenges of the small businessman.
As in many cases with tax legislation, congress aims at the big guys and hits the smaller ones even harder. Some answers would be to kill the tax entirely and reduce expenditures on the other side, or give offsetting tax credits (based on company size). However if the company is not making a profit the tax credits won't help and cash flow would still be a problem.
I think as a nation we have come to the end of the road when it comes to the spend now and finance it later mindset....so I would go with kill or delay the tax and cut the expenditures it was meant to support.
WHERE ARE ALL THE LIBERALS!!!!! WHERE ARE THE 1000 plus postings? Complaining or supporting your liberal representatives trying to delay the tax increases that liberals fought so hard for.?
Where O' where are you tonight? Why did you leave me here all alone. I searched the world over for tax-lovin' liberals, but now you're back tracking and pffft...you are gone.
smbusowner; I am here as well, however, I could not agree more with Pro. He has proven this point more than once and is well put!! The problem is that NOW the democrats are complaining about something that was brought to their attention but did not listen.
@DB Akron;
yes they are. Our health insurance has changed quite a bit to help off set the companies raised taxes to pay for their contract workers, as well as part-time workers. This company does not want to lay anyone off (uncessesarily), which I agree, so we will take this change. But what bothers me even more are those who are on welfare, getting handouts, and doing NOTHING. Now, with that being said, we should have affordable healthcare, but not at the expense of raising taxes, which in turn, will decrease my spending for the economy. Living paycheck to paycheck is tough enough, but managable with simple planning. The increase in taxes that are coming for all, and yes, including this middle income family will hurt more than help. Mr. President and democrats!!!
LOL!!!!! The second part of this sentence kills me! LOL! in order for the "carefully" designed health care overhaul to function... LOL! My sides are hurting and I have tears in both eyes!!
“But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it....”
FYI, this was in it. These two idiots voted for it now they need to let the cards fall where they may. No excuses. Let the taxes be implemented. We were in the middle of worst economic downturn the US has had since the Great Depression and still they passed it. NOW they want to delay the taxes that were going to be used to pay for the monstrosity because they're worried about jobs? Where do these morons come from? If any one of us had done something like this we would be fired from our jobs for gross incompetence.
The Democrats passed this bill without reading it and now they want to put parts of it on hold, I say leave it as is, after all according to all the Democrats that voted for it, it is a great bill!!!
It is a great bill. I don't see a thing wrong with any of those supposed taxes. It looks like they are all means tested. And whaa whaa whaa on the 2.3 % tax. My guess is that there hasn't been any tax on these devices. Why should one industry be exempt and another not. Also this kicking the can thing down the road has got to cease. Give us a year and we'll happily pay the tax. Blah blah blah. These damn lobbyist just want another years pay. And the politicians want another years of bribes ( oh I mean another year of election contributions ) Note only the politicians that represent the state these companies operate in are whining. This all breaks down to what is wrong with this country. Me Me Me
Breeze: Do you know what the term "Tax Incidence" means? I didn't think so. Tax Incidence means it doesn't matter who COLLECTS the tax - the question is who PAYS the tax. For example: Gas stations are required to pay local, state, and federal taxes on each gallon sold. Do you think the gas station pays the entire tax? No, it is passed along to the consumer.
So let me ask you a question: If there is a 2.3% tax on the companies who SELL medical devices just who do you think is going to PAY for that tax? The medical device company? You really can't be that naive can you?
Hospitals and doctors will pay that tax which they will pass along to those of us who go to the doctors and hospitals.
But, wait a minute, doesn't insurance companies cover most of the cost of doctor and hospital visits? So who will cover most of the cost of the medical device tax? Insurance companies.
But where do THEY get the money to pay for these claims? That's right - premiums. And who PAYS the premiums? That's right - you and I.
So now you know part of the reason why premiums are going up 15% to 20% next year.
Just AMAZING how naive liberals are. Thinking you can require more but nobody will have to pay for it. But they will soon realize how wrong they are........
The bill that wouldn't impact those making less than $200,000? As we all just found out that it is going to cost us $63 per person each year. The cost of medical devices will cost insurers more...who will pass that cost on to the employers...who will pass that cost on to all of us.
We can only hope that they are taxing the hell out of imported medical devices or we might lose more high paying wages overseas.
And this tax is on sales, not profits!
I agree, obama,pelosi and reid made their beds now lie in it and pay for your stupidity.
This cluster$#%# of an Affordable Care Act is going to cost SO much they delayed implementation until 2013 with the HOPE they could have enough unintelligent people not realize what was going to happen and STILL reelect this catastrophe of a president. They were right.
There were PLENTY of unintelligent people who would not realize what this was going to cost - but now they are finding out. You thought your insurance was unaffordable BEFORE? Just wait another year.
BTW, THAT was the plan. Pass this mess. Implement in 2013 so the unintelligent wouldn't know what was coming. Now costs are going to skyrocket which are going to force businesses to stop offering care and just "pay the penalty". Then the government will tell us that "due to business greed" they are not offering insurance so NOW we need a Single Payer System. We will be Single Payer within 5 years now.
You think getting affordable health care NOW is difficult wait until this thing is fully (dis)functional and you will then find out what a failed and inferior health system looks like........
The Democrats only want to put it on hold until after the mid-term elections. Written behind closed doors in secret locations by some of the most liberal members of the Democratic Party, overseen by the most transparent administration to ever sit in the oval office. Reality won't matter to liberals, defending Obama has become a way of life and a full time job.
Tes: GOOD POINT!! I forgot about that!! Yes, it is a 2.3% tax on SALES!! It is projected that could be a 20%+ tax on the actual PROFITS!!
What a mess this thing is and isn't even implemented yet. Wait until the unintelligent Obama voter realizes their insurance premiums are going up 15% to 20% next year (if their employer decides to even KEEP offering insurance).
We will hear the complaining by the uninformed and unintelligent Obama voter in about 6 to 8 months and all we will be able to say is "We told you so". But a lot of good that will do any of us. We are ALL screwed and now nothing we can do about it because the uninformed and unintelligent Obama voter was not smart enough to even figure out something as basic as this.
Everyones tax is going to go up eventually.The more money the politicians need the more they will tax and they need LOTS of money.The 2% being taxed is not going to be enough so it will be the middle class's turn to pay more taxes next..count on it.
Breeze...the ACA is such a great bill that many of the largest companies in the country got waivers.
Breeze, Oblama was elected by you and the other 'Me, Me, Me's'. Government, take it from those who earn it and give it to me,me, me.
Pro,
I don't know where you get 15 - 20%. My wife's company insurance agent says the companies he offers will be increasing group health insurance 30 - 40%. The big losers will be those on individual plans with high deductibles. I'm seeing estimates for those being between 30 & 50%.
This is because the ACA will force Health insurers to offer only $2500 or $5000 annual deductibles. Currently, many Group Insurances of 6000 & 7500 deductibles. Individual plans offer plans with 10,000 or 12,000 annual deductibles.
There was something about co-pays being limited to $15 or $25. There were plans that offered $30 co-pays. When all these change, the only way to pay for the increased coverage is to increase the premiums to meet what Insurance companies know will be an increased payout on their part.
@Pro;
thank you for putting the true meaning of "Tax Incidence". I posted it once to another person some time ago when they defended ACA with "Tax Incidence". Might help if, we as a society, understood what is really happening with the Obama Administration.
"carefully designed health care overhaul" are you kidding me they did not even take the time to read the darn thing before passing it.
You can't fully read what wasn't fully written at the time it was passed. In fact ObamaCare is still being written to this day. Democrats are always complaining that Republicans haven't been specific on spending cuts, and yet they have no problem passing a bill with yet to be written on every other page.
Ha Ha Jeff I read that too MSDNC's wording I'm sure
what else would you expect from an incompetent government ???????????
that's reid, pelosi and obama for ya...
if they are the brains of america...????????? i can see why america is so screwed up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dumb voters too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I think the Republicans are ticked off because they lost so much in the election. But with Airheads they put out there, leaved a lot to be desired. Now everyone wants to argue, because of being ticked off, I know the Republoicans have a smaller sucker, and the Dems is larger this time. give me a break quit acting like children get done what needs to be done.
Seems to me that they should have at least read the thing before they passed the most obtrusive bill in American history. And your commment shows that you apparently didn't read the article. It said democrats are arguing against it as well. Well...I'll be. Apparently you CAN'T have it both ways! LMAO!
Lady Jag, all of us lost in this election.
Lady Jag
Can you say you are happy with a bill that gives the IRS the power to search through your personal bank accounts without obtaining a search warrant?
Yes, this is to determine that you are actually paying for health insurance. If you are paying for it, then who are you buying it from, what plan are you paying for, and does that insurance meet the federal standards for health insurance.
You're telling the Republicans to quit acting like children and get done what needs to be done? Did I miss something here? Isn't this article about a couple of Democrats whining like children about how they don't want to implement the tax they passed to pay for Obamacare?
LadyJag is like so many liberals that actually believe something changed in the last election. Well lets see, Obama is still president, the Democrats still control the Senate, and Republicans still control the House. So the simple fact is Republicans neither lost or gained, and the Democrats neither lost or gained. The voters graciously handed Obama a mulligan, a do over, and so far he is proving that he didn't learn a thing from his first term. Obama is still dividing and not leading, making excuses and not solving, and blaming instead of moving forward. Obama has ushered in the age of entitlement, the gimme crowd looking to the government with their hands out. It is no longer ask what you can do for your country, it is now what can your country do for you. Well with the direction Obama has this country headed, nothing more then an IOU.
@LadyJag,
It really is not that at all. I did not vote for Obama once. I have not choice but to move on, however, there is a difference when the Democratic party just lay blame, starting with our President. Enough is enough. He is in his second term and still cannot except responsibility for his failures. Now those Democrats want to WAIT on tax increase to suit their needs, not jobs. Those jobs should be here no matter what. That is on this Administration, not Republicans. We as Americans, should ask why? It is not being ticked off, as you say but holding our government responsible for their choices, as well as those who voted for them.
How is anyone acting like children, when they want answers? The Republicans DID NOT want this passed, without further discussion and it being READ first. They only way it passed was to make sure that it was a tax. Look at the Supreme court decision on this;
www.drugstorenews.com/article/aca-stands-supreme-court-rules-law-tax
the american people will be the only ones getting SCREWED again and they must love it...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember, they are only taxing the rich. Hahahaha. Millionaires and billionaires. Hahahahaha. You get what you vote for.
I work full time, have no health insurance, have no money to spend on luxuries (I have a cel phone and internet oh and my old guitar) and NO money at the end of each month. So Obamas solution is to FORCE me to pay money I dont have for something I dont need (Im 23). I just dont get it, what the hell are you democrats thinking.
get rid of the cell phone, get rid of the internet. And you will have money left over. And you might also be able to get a job that pays a little more if you'd put down that stupid cell phone. I watch the young of today and they can't survive with a text every five seconds. We have a young man here where we work. he and I were on the elevator the other day. He checked it 7 times. Did I mention we only have two floors. He can't get a damn thing done because it's always one handed
You will get sick at some point. Your care will then depend on resources provided by someone else. What if they decide you're not worth it?
Ditto. And I really don't think they are capable of rational thought. Their mantra, "What's mine is mine, and what's your's is also mine. And I'll do any dang thing I want to with it!" And don't forget, these liberals are way more intellegent than any of you on here!! And they won't let you forget it! Don't you think the young man needs his cell phone to communicate with the rest of the world? Do you still use a can with some string? Next time you go on a rant, stay on the subject at least. Geez.
Breeze, that only makes up maybe $100 per month. Jack will need to purchase a policy that is between $200 & $300 per month for himself. Now, he may qualify for help, under the ACA, but I have not seen how much help the fed is going to give him.
Jack Sch: Here's a backup plan for you. If all else fails, quit your job, collect welfare and food stamps, and get free medical insurance under Obamacare. I've heard the govt will even give you a free cell phone, seriously. It's starting to sound like a smart career move to me.
Hey Breeze, you are sounding like every person in American, who feels that the Government, should take your money, your hard earned money, and cover the butts of people like you. It is his money, he has every right to get a cell phone (cheaper than a landline) but not pay for those who do not pay for their own.
hbebe, yup, that is why he got re-elected. To give my money to serve as the liberals entitlements.
All these new taxes and they want to delay the one on makers of medical devices? They should start some beans cookin' with that pork since you can smell the special interest political contributions from here. Oh and maybe they should have read the bill.
This is why true tax reform is a pipe dream. 2 years after they accomplished it (as if), they'd be picking the winners and losers again based on campaign contributions.
Now the democrats are getting religion over tax increases that will hurt the economy. You backed it, you own it, you live with it and let the rest of us decide on how to live without the cost of our healthcare going down and taxes rising.
Many people that voted for Obama were convinced that health care was going to be free. Just listen to them scream now that the taxes start to take effect. And just wait until even more taxes and fee's pop up in 2014. Then they will find out they have to pay for health coverage or pay a fine. Health care will cost many times more when the federal government runs it. Can you name me one program that the government runs efficiently?
It's so awesome they all kicked in right AFTER the election. haha
One of the favorite sayings: "If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free".
Funny how they say they are always for the little guy, but they are okay with limiting folks flex spending accounts that most of us "little people" use to help keep medical costs down in order to pay for their new welfare program, i.e. Obamacare, and want to instead spare businesses from experiencing higher taxes.
It's even more ironic that they called Obamacare the "Affordable Care Act," when really it should have been called the "having other people pay for other people's health insurance act," does little to reduce costs, and actually involves increases taxes on "medical devices," which will only result in these medical devices being more expensive and thus driving up healthcare costs for EVERYONE!
lol...look at the little Fox Noise Watchers, all lined up spewing talking points.^^^^
There certainly seems to be a lack of maher watching, swooning liberals. If that's what you mean. What amazes me, is that every liberal on here is CONVINCED that everyone who doesn't agree with their idiocy watches Fox News, listens to Limbaugh/O'Reilly, clings to their guns, or religion, or immigration or whatever keeps them warm at night. Pedistrian, you should really try to get your news from somewhere other than schultz and matthews.
NPC, when the first three responses are almost verbatim "derp, nobody read the bill!" I feel pretty safe in coming to this conclusion. Thanks for playing though... ;)
I guess you and John Stewart watch fox news all day to give you something to complain about.How else do you know all their talking points.
Pedestrian
People who watch Fox don't come here. You are hearing from people who use NBC mostly.
The only time I visit Fox is occaisionally on a weekend, and on holidays, when the NBC articles haven't been changed in 3 days. That's how bankrupt NBC is on the news.
DB... riiiight. ;)
@ Pedestiran
Your girl live and onstage stating that you have to pass the bill to find out whats in it. (remove the word "dot" and put a period there and remove the spaces)
www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=UvQcRtveZq0
Teaching - youtube isn't exactly a credible news source now, is it. I kind of like a little context with my talking points - did you listen to the entire statement, or just what you were spoonfed?
Imagine that, republicans are not the only politicians beholden to big industries. A democrat helping the 1% - I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.
better yet... keep spending money democrats so the country goes totally bankrupt and you can't hide it anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
then, we can finally get the idiots to work together to fix it right for a change and the lazy, incompetent people will have to learn tom stand on their own two feet again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
can't wait for a renewed america !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hillary 2016!!!!!
Monica Lewinsky 2016!!!!
Its funny/disturbing watching democrats and republicans point fingers and taunt each other, its so blatantly obvious that America needs a third party. 40% of Americans dont vote, therefore dont support either party.
Less than 30% support the Democrats, and only 1/3 of them are true Democrats while the rest vote "to support the less of two evils".
Less than 30% support the Republicans, and only 1/3 of them are true Republicans while the rest vote "to support the less of two evils".
So the two parties only really represent 30% of our population, while 30% votes in fear and 40% dont vote at all ( I said less than 30% because a small percent does go to the third parties).
So thats 70% of America that either doesnt vote or doesnt fully support one of the two major parties. Congress has both had and has a horrible rating.
From an economic standpoint, I see very littler difference in these two parties as they both support the Federal Reserve, printing money out of thin air, and doing anything to make sure the banks are profiting. It sickens me to realize most people have no idea that our central bank is controlled by international corporate globalists who dont give a @!$%# about America.
REMEMBER. EVERY RECESSION/DEPRESSION DOES NOT DESTROY WEALTH, IT REDISTRIBUTES IT. THE RICH DOUBLE+TRIPLED+ THEIR WEALTH DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION, JUST AS THE TOP 1/10% TRIPLED THEIR WEALTH BETWEEN 2008-2012.
Am I wrong but hasn't Obama been running around the country crying for more taxes and more revenue, now his own party wants to put a hold on new taxes LOL maybe next time you will read a bill before you pass it!!!
The tax must go through and let the chips fall where they may.
This is going to be a cluster you know what.
Screw the dems! They wanted this abortion of a bill, now let them own it. This was supposed to cost the taxpayers nothing and this lie was perpetrated on the American public by our jackass president and his fleet of liars.
Maybe by 2014 Americans will know they've been had and will revolt against all the leeches in this country and their politician enablers who support the ripping off of the American taxpayer.
Taxes are the lowest in 60 years. If all of the Bush tax cuts expired, 70% of the deficit would be gone. Please refund to the IRS all the money you have saved so we can pay off the national debt.
Your math is a LITTLE off there bud....
We passed it and are now reading it.... wait and see how much "Affordable" health care costs the working class... while the lazy get it free.......
The lazy were already getting it free.
My question on the Medical Device thing. If the item is taxed 2.8% (making us even more uncompetitive), and the costs are passed on to the consumer and presumably the insurance company who will only raise their rates, thus having the government have to pay more in the long run.... where is there a gain? Just bigger numbers all around except for the fact that those of us who have paid our own health care for decades pay more... therefore... affordable healthcare costs me more? I am soooooooooooooooo confused.......
All I know... I am paying more now and about to pay even more since the "Affordable Health Care Act" went into place.........
Good one. It's like when the City of New York voted themselves raises, I think it was like 12%. Then they realized they needed to raise taxes by 15% to cover the costs. Stupid is as stupid does.
Really, who would have thought that higher taxes would have an adverse effect on jobs throughout the country. What a freaking genius.
Another case of "not in my backyard" Democrats.
It seems to me that the big medical device makers are now crying foul and pumping up with the threat of a 25% reduction in workforce just to compete. I see they waited until the last minute to throw in the monkey wrench. They all want to play when profits are high...but none want to pay. Oh yeah, the layoffs...they'll do it just for spite...and then raise CEO pay 10% with all the money they save. The american pipe dream...they are the pipe...our a$$ the dream.
Yeah, those medical device folks are awful! All they ever do is make devices that extend lives. Awful, awful!
Tax them until they quit.
Yes, $200 for a pair of crutches is a steal!
Why do people allow themselves to be manipulated so easily?
The propaganda machine loves to lead people around by their noses.
Disabled
Well with the tax that will be now $205 PLUS what they must increase prices to cover for the 30 - 40% increase in their own health insurance.
It's easy to see who the sheeple are!
Corporate America doesn't need an excuse to raise prices.
Where have you been living for the past 50 years?
Prices will raise tax or not, but some people are fine with Big Business not paying their share.