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Updated at 6:05 p.m. ET -- Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder called himself "one tough nerd" in his 2010 gubernatorial campaign, fashioning himself as a pragmatic problem-solver who wouldn't delve into the divisive partisanship that had come to define some of his fellow Republicans.
Related: Michigan House passes right-to-work legislation
But now that Snyder has signed historic legislation making Michigan the nation's 24th right-to-work state, detractors will likely lump the governor with those firebrand Republicans, a distinction that he had long sought to avoid.
Gov. Rick Snyder, R-Mich., tells NBC's Andrea Mitchell that the right-to-work legislation will bring more work to his state and may be a "positive" to unions over time.
“I didn’t do this to get into the politics of it,” Snyder said on MSNBC Tuesday afternoon of the fight. He said the issue reached a “critical mass” after organized labor unsuccessfully pushed a ballot initiative this November that would have established a right to collective bargaining in the Michigan constitution.
Snyder had previously said that pursuing this legislation was not on his agenda. But Republicans in the statehouse, whose majorities in the House and Senate will be narrower next year due to the 2012 elections, revived the long-dormant proposal with Snyder's eventual blessing.
"Once we had the support that we had, the next step was convincing the governor that this was a good thing," said state Republican Rep. Marty Knollenberg, a primary sponsor of the bill in the House. "It certainly started from the legislature, and then it was presented to the governor … I think he was sort of taking a wait-and-see attitude. It wasn’t on his priority list, as he indicated."
But Snyder did ultimately embrace the law, and signed it into law on Tuesday evening. Whether he would be able to preserve his reputation as a non-ideologue is an open question.
The Washington Post's Ruth Marcus talks about the protests in Lansing, Michigan over the right-to-work legislation.
"I think he kind of decided he couldn’t string this out any longer. The idea that he had some sort of moment where he was converted in a blinding flash of light – I don’t think that’s the case," said Bill Ballenger, editor of the "Inside Michigan Politics" newsletter. "Here you’ve got Michigan looking, all of a sudden, far more extreme and aggressive that Scott Walker. Isn’t that ironic?"
Snyder enjoyed a 51 percent approval rating for Snyder in an early December EPIC-MRA poll; 48 percent of Michiganders said they had a negative impression of Snyder's performance as governor. The same poll found that Snyder had an edge over a generic Democratic challenger in 2014.
Recommended: Boehner demands Obama 'get serious' and offer new plan
But the state was much more divided on the question of whether the legislature should pursue right-to-work laws. While the EPIC-MRA poll found that Michiganders were generally supportive of the concept of those laws, they were evenly divided – 47 percent in favor, 46 percent against – on the question of whether Michigan should adopt such a law.
Dale G. Young / AP
Governor Rick Snyder presents his views on Michigan's future energy plans and how they merge with environmental and resource management issues at MSU's WK Kellogg Biological Station, Wednesday, Nov. 28, 2012 near Hickory Corners, Mich.
Indeed, Snyder's decision to move forward with this proposal will inevitably invite parallels with GOP Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's work to push legislation that stripped public employees of their collective bargaining rights in early 2011. Like Michigan, Wisconsin is an industrial Midwestern state with a long tradition of unionism. And as with Wisconsin, Democrats and labor activists stormed the state capitol with unmet hopes of halting the changes to labor law.
“I think it’s important to make a distinction with Wisconsin and Ohio,” Snyder said on MSNBC. “That was about collective bargaining. That was about the relationship between employers and unions. This has nothing to do with that. Right-to-work has to do with the relationship between unions and workers.”
The bigger distinction might be the extent to which Michigan's fight was relatively bloodless. The fight in Wisconsin dragged out for days as Democrats in the state Senate went into hiding in Illinois to try to prevent a vote. And labor fought for months to recall Walker, an election which the Wisconsin governor survived this past June.
The right-to-work law moved much more quickly through Michigan's state government, giving opponents of the law barely any time to stop the bill. Even President Barack Obama's criticism of the law during a stop Monday in Detroit did little to halt the legislation's progress.
That sort of criticism could threaten to erode the reputation Snyder had built for himself during two years in office. Snyder, a former CEO of Gateway Computers, emerged from relative obscurity in 2010 to beat two well-known Republican challengers, Rep. Pete Hoekstra and Attorney General Mike Cox, in the primary on the strengths of his plain-spoken, jobs-oriented message.
Bob King, president of the United Auto Workers and Rev. Jesse Jackson share their reactions to the right-to-work legislation and the protests occurring because of it.
Snyder tried to burnish his bipartisan bona fides upon taking office by appointing former State House Speaker Andy Dillon, a Democrat who'd unsuccessfully sought his party's gubernatorial nomination in 2010, as his state treasurer. He had sought to build a new bridge between Detroit and Canada over the opposition of some Republicans, and resisted a GOP initiative to ban domestic partnership benefits for gay and lesbian couples before relenting.
Democrats and their allies in organized labor are sure now to redouble their efforts to beat Snyder in 2014, despite a relatively thin bench of challengers. More voters (40 percent) said they would be less likely to give Snyder a second term if he pursued right-to-work than those who said they would be more likely to re-elect the Republican.
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Race-to-the bottom...that is how America has gone down to become 3rd world sweatshops.
This is recession time, for sure. But what happened to those guilty bankers and corporate leaders who have caused this recession. as far as I know, no prosecution, no one goes to jail for the world-wide recession. In fact many have received oversized bonuses with taxpayers funded bailouts.
.
But this 'right-to'destroy-work' by GOP wants to further victimize the victims of the recession.
Why?
Where is common sense??
The union thugs are getting violent.
They don't want to to see their ability to fund the DNC diminished.
What's wrong with giving workers the choice to join a union or not?
e-lliot...behave yourself, please. Don't be an e-ddiot. We can have honest debate...agree to disagree agreeably. Be an adult.
The republican party really wants us to compete with China. All we need to do next is get rid of those pesky child labor laws and all the safety laws. EPA will be next. We know how well the big corporations will watch dog themselves. Than we could bring in the sweat shops. Than we could be just like China
elloit let the laughs begin, Thank You You should be doing stand up!
In fact many have received oversized bonuses with taxpayers funded bailouts.
____________________________________
Pigslop: ONLY if you are talking about those crooks at GM-UAW and Barney Franks and Chis Dodds love children Fannie and Freddie.
The Wall Street banks and AIG have returned ALL bailout funds along with multibillion-dollar profits to the 53% of Americans that actually pay income taxes.
IF------------
If US imposed tarrifs on Asia goods, making US competitive with a country (China) that under values their own currency, then US wages could be increased.
However, it all seems a game, as consumer goods would have to be priced accordingly, making a TV set $3000 for instance.
The sad thing is, if our wages kept up with inflation, $20 per hour minimum wage probably wouldn't be out of the norm.
I find it aggravating that Walmart lowering its employee hours to the point that they have no benefits, and employees haveto subsidize their wages with food stamps and government programs, just to feed their families. So, in a sense, WE the AMERICAN PEOPLE are subsidizing Walmarts low prices. Talk about unfair labor practices, huh...
Pigotry,
Elliot is right - There has already been one reported assault of a popular right wing blogger - Stephen Crowder - who was punched four times in the head while a tent he was near for Americans for Prosperity was torn down.
If something like this had happened where Tea Party folks did anything remotely close to this it would be national news.
Neither would a 4 dollar roll of toilet paper.
@ Elliot, yeah, exactly my point on the $3000 television.... $17 a gallon milk, etc....
Like Scott Walker in WI, Snyder BS'd his way into office and now his true TPer color comes through. Under Walker, WI has increased its budget and taxpayers have an increase in property taxes, unemployment is up, wages and benefits are down, and Walker's promise of 250,000 jobs is nowhere in sight.
...so many of you right-wingers prefer corporate tyranny and corporate welfare, rather than a fair system of checks and balances that give a bit of say to workers in stopping corporate abuses. This recession is an example of the destructiveness of corporate abuses and market tyranny.
JustSlapMe, do you live in Michigan? If so, did you listen to Snyder's campaign? He hasn't swayed from his campaign spiels. Unlike most politicians, he has done what he said he would do. He did not "BS his way in to office."
...but Wal-mart is an example of corporate greed and lack of union oversight. Wal-Mart is a perfect case that refutes right-wing 'right-to-work for for less' logic.
Hey Pigslop, imagine this: YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORK AT WALMART IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. Choice. Freedom of choice. Pro-choice - I thought you liberals loved pro-choice!!!
Really, Oscar, when did he mention in his campaign that he was going to bust unions? When did he mention he was going to tax pensions? When did he mention that he would put through a law that only 6% of Michiganders thought was relevant and then include in the law a rule that says Michiganders could not vote to repeal that law? Did Snyder say he would meet behind closed doors with union leaders and tell them one thing and then stab them in the back the very next day? When did he say he was going to close some of the tax credits the middle class can take? When did he say he was going to build a bridge that most people in Michigan are against? Because, yeah, I don't remember him ever revealing these things to the people of Michigan prior to his election.
Unemployment is generally lower in RTW states, but so are average wages. Guess you can fewer workers making more money or more workers making less. Some choice.
Can I come be a proofer for First Read? What's the pay? ;-)
I wonder how much the unions had to pay Jessee to garner their "national attention". He came to my area years ago to "help" striking coal miners, spoke for 8 to 10 minutes and walked away with $25,000. Senator Watts from Oklahoma tagged Jessee for what he is... a poverty pimp. JESSEE__GET A JOB and stop pimping.
This is a great day for Michigan! Just imagine...workers finally have a CHOICE! Doesn't that sound logical? Instead of being under the tyranny of a union, workers can decide their own fate. If they want to still join a union, join a union. If they choose to not join a union, then not join a union. Pretty simple! To all those that believe this is the end of the world, why don't you have a little faith. *IF* the union is doing great things, then it would be logicial that people would continue to join the union. That in turn would keep unions strong and it would be the status quo. If, however, people don't see the real benefit that unions provide, then they have the choice.
As for those teachers, it's clear that they have no real interests in the children. Instead, they put their own self interests ahead of those that they "claim" to protect. Time after time, how many instances have their been of teachers crying that students are suffering. And yet here we see them for what they are...sacrificing student's best interest for their own benefit.
Forgive me as this it totally off topic but wanted to make sure this person sees this:
To little miss piggy!
I saw this and immediately thought of you!
http://holidayblog.today.com/_news/2012/12/11/15844204-holiday-bash-town-pummelspeppermint-pigs-for-holidays?lite
Hey Oscar the Grouch! Don't be mean! Happy Holidays!
All this ranting and raving makes it sound like they outlawed unions? Is that what the bill says? Hmmm I thought it said as a worker I could now decide wether or not I wanted to join a union at a job site instead of having to . That I could decide wether I wanted to fund the union with part of my check? Not that I couldn't, just that I could not be forced to. Having a hard time seeing what is so wrong with this.
And can I ask. What is the going rate for unskilled labor? If someone cannot get through high school because it was too much bother and decides something will turn up what is a fair wage?
Right to Work is another ALEC boiler-plate law, paid for by big business and pushed to and by republican lawmakers who receive large campaign donations from those big businesses. Now why do you think it is so important for the Koch brothers or Adelson or other wealthy business owners and operators to get Right to Work laws passed? Who benefits from lower wages and fewer benefits? Who benefits from not having unions reporting safety issues or demanding better worker conditions and upgraded equipment? Who benefits if the employee has no recourse and no voice? Think about it.
In states with Right to Work laws, wages average about $5,500 less per worker per year, more employees lack health insurance, there are more work-related fatalities, and the list of negatives goes on. The only thing Right to Work guarantees is lower wages, fewer benefits and too bad when the boss doesn't like you.
One small point that Snyder and those like him either do not know or choose to ignore--it is an often repeated GOP lie. Even without Right to Work laws, no employee is forced to join a union--even if they accept a position in a company or public agency that has a union. Most do join but they are not required to join. So what is the GOP's point?
Once again, republicans on the surface are attempting to fix a problem that doesn't exist, below the surface is their real purpose: get rid of unions and get rid of union influence favoring democratis in elections. Never mind that Americans for Prosperity is funded by the Koch brothers and spends millions electing republicans; or that Roves Crossroads funds republican elections or that Sheldon Adelson and countless other millionaires fund elections. The problem for republicans is that they know they cannot win unless they cheat, unless they lie, and one way to tip the scales in their favor--demonize and eliminate unions.
According to the National Institute for Labor Relations Research, right-to-work states had more than double the job growth of forced-unionism states over the past decade.
Anthony,
Did the source give information about wage increase or decrease for the time period?
Alan, even McDonald's requires a high school diploma these days. Most businesses including fast food restaurants, union and non-union, require a high school diploma. Even the ones where they operate machines which stuff envelopes full of junk mail to send all of us require a high school diploma. These steps were taken years ago to keep kids in school; it isn't something new. Now, that doesn't mean every business in every town in every state does this but, for the most part, they do.
Anthony, there is NO SUCH thing as a "forced unionism" state; it doesn't exist. Since you quote a legitimate source that says Right to Work states have higher job growth, perhaps you should check to see what that same source says about the wage earnings of those workers--it will say those workers earn 3-7% less and have fewer benefits such as health insurance.
Excellent post Anthony!
I see all the left is all in a huff about this..and naturally calling up images of the those evil big business interests... WOW...you would think you have found some other line to use by now.
Demonize unions you say? You mean like what happened to Eastern Airlines? Or more recent Hostess? You mean like that, where now those people are out of a job?? WOW...if that's what happens when you are part of a union, it's no wonder why people want a choice...
What do you prefer? A low paying job or no job? With reports coming out that companies cannot fill entry-level positions paying $13 an hour it is apparent that most Americans prefer no job.
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000134038
Understand this is an unskilled job with prospects of higher pay as you are trained.
In a country where our freedoms are diminishing every day, I applaud Michigan for standing up and doing whats right.
Freedom of choice is not restricted solely to Roe vs Wade.
So, I'll ask again. What is a fair rate for a job that does not require a HS diploma?
Get used to it. Now the right-wing is attacking the last bastion of middle-class wages. We're talking about the ability of American Workers to feed their families. There will be blood, and a lot of it!
Pigatry,Do you believe a person should have the choice of being in a union or not? Just a yes or no will do.
Thumbs up for Governor Snyder!!!
"There will be blood"?? A perfect textbook example from the violent history of unions. When you don't agree to their way of thinking, then they will resort to violence. How many times have you seen people attacked for crossing a picket line? And now, ol doc is proclaiming "there be blood..." Ever wonder why they are like that?
you ask too much Alan.
JK1963 #1.18~~This is a great day for Michigan! Just imagine...workers finally have a CHOICE! *IF* the union is doing great things, then it would be logicial that people would continue to join the union.
JK, I have in the past, been a dues paying, union worker and always have been a consumer choosing union made in the USA products, due to better quality. The greatest dis-agreement I have had with unions, was and is, all of the benefits gained by unions with my union dues, are given to those of you who are adamant that union members are lazy, over-paid, thugs, with too many benefits. You need to realize, that you are receiving the same benefits, that my union dues are paying for. I have always voiced my opinion that unions, should only benefit, card carrying members. If and when that happens, you guys will be crying and begging to join a union.
I can easily understand why people want to have a choice in having to pay union dues. What I do not understand is why the union has to bargin/protect people who do not pay for this service/benefit.
Because they are sick and tired of hearing "Let the eat cake". By the way, that's a prediction not encouragement. I personally have no particular desire to either die at the moment nor be forced to take up my gun. Understand that historic research indicates when income disparity reaches critical mass both the violent crime rate and domestic disturbances among normally peaceful communities begins to become more prevalent. While there seems to be no direct correlation between income disparity and rebellion, there is evidence that existing socio/economic divides become much greater and the likelihood of rioting and full blown rebellion becomes more likely. I suppose you can assume American Workers will simply sit by passively and watch what little they have left taken from them. But you assume that at your own peril.
One example of the research I'm talking about. There is a more interesting study, I simply can't find it at the moment.
GOP America is so stupid they vote for their own demise and gladly. Rush has you all so fooled.
Hey, AlaskaGirl-759554 of #1.19
those are some sweet pigs... Thanks, AlaskaGirl
Right on, Anthony. And to the dems whose heads are in the sand on this issue, consider this: Doubling the job growth, even with salaraies 3-7% less, dumps a TON of money into the private sector, which 1) diminishes the need for the nanny state to spend resources taking care of those who now have jobs, and 2) increases the tax base, thereby increasing gov't revenue that you dems seem more focused on than addressing the real problem, which is decreasing the out-of-control spending.
I agree with Jeff-1592116. Nice beaver btw!
You libbies got what you wanted come voting time. Now we're waiting for some real results. So far, things are looking pretty dire on a lot of fronts. Remember, you voted for this!
This is a lie.
At my place of employment, I do not have a choice. From my school's website:
Note that little bugger of a word "automatically."
Of course, I can opt to technically not "join" the union. In that case, instead of paying dues, the union is allowed to steal 1.34% of my salary, whereas the dues are 1.4%. The difference comes out to be a shade under $6.
So, kindly don't tell someone what is or is not the case, when you clearly don't know.
I'm 66 years old and never been in a union in my life. God knows they need reform. But if unions disappear, within a generation the 40 hour work week will disappear, time and a half will disappear, vacations will disappear, minimum wage will disappear and child labor will be back. The only reason Walmart isn't paying 12 year old kids $2.00 per hour and working them 90 hours a week is because it's illegal. If unions go away, it soon won't be illegal.
Pigotry
Hmmmmm, ya know what Piggy? I agree.
You may want to ax your boy-toy Eric Holder though. Didn’t his Department of Justice refuse to prosecute Golden Sacks for their involvement in the housing and liquidity collapse?
Yep, yep, he did. So Congress finds grounds to prosecute but the criminal Holder decides not to.
And how about that fine Democrat ex Governor and Senator, Jon Corzine? It’s incredible how his hedge fund, MF Global, just lost almost $2 billion of customer’s funds. It just disappeared. Poof! Gone!Oh, I’m sure some middle management lackey will be blamed for the magically vanishing money
OK, I’ll play.
Lemme ax you how will this “further victimize the victims of the recession”?
(This should be good)
It amazes me that there are some who think working for $10 an hour is a fair wage. I would like them to live on that. It seems that those who have a good paying job with benefits just don't give a damn about other fellow Americans because they have the opportunity to have a good job. I was wondering if those the Governor would then agree to Michigan workers not having to pay state taxes but still receive the benefits. I hope the Governor and his Republican bought cronies realize they are creating hostile work places. Those who are trying to destroy workers rights are willing to accept the consequences because you can only push people so far until they start pushing back. It's time for the American workers to fight back against this corporate Republican party move to keep the working class quiet. The time for talk is over so we need to show the Corporate puppets that we as American workers are not going to bend over anymore. The time is now.
What bulls**t! NBC's just trying to intimidate Snyder for having the balls to stand up to the union thugs. Guess what, NBC, a lot of GOP pols outside of the DC Beltway couldn't give a damn less about what the libs and their media toadies think. And besides, on every discussion blog I visited today, the pro-Snyder comments are swamping the pro-union comments.
There isn't any when it comes to the "ignorant" followers who support this man, (Snyder). His followers probably don't even know this man is worth $200 million dollars +, was chairman of the board of Gateway, Inc., and Ted Waitt, co-founder of Gateway was very instrumental supporting him for Governor in 2010. With Snyder, it's not about the people, it's about him and his millionaire/billionaire cronies sticking together to screw all the idiots who believe he's for them. Snyders job, set up by his million/billion dollar donors was/is to do just what he's doing, damn what the voters want him to do, he's in office to save his millionaire/billionaire buddies millions/billions of dollars, by any means possible, and that means screwing "YOU," the "little man," the slave workers, into working for a pittance, with no benefits, all while fattening his buddies bank accounts.
There's a group called BLM, Business Leaders for Michigan, whom, in my opinion has supported Snyder "Carte blanche" with the sole purpose of fattening their bottom lines at the employee's expense.
How stupid can you followers be.
wait until michigan attacks a woman's right to choose... you fascists will all be infavor of getting rid of those rights to choose.....
Either this was always on his agenda, and he just lied about it to prevent upsetting the 2012 elections and hurting Mitt Romney, or else Snyder really didn't want to do this, but after losing the 2012 elections, the party put a gun to his head and told him to get with the union busting program or else lose all support for any future political campaigns.
Just another name to add to the Progressive's list they can slander (see above and below).
Typical Modus Operandi.
LOL....^^ This just shows you how much these criminal politicians work together. In a few short words, Goldman Sacks OWNED the Bush administration.
Facts, my man, FACTS!!!
The far left is in the wrong side one more time. Most Americans wants free to work legislation's. The good thing about this Michigan Law is that, it does not prohibit Unions but give the freedom to employees to chose if they want or not to joint the Union. Freedom to chose a praise very common in the mouth of left wingers but is silent this time, this is nothing more than a display of hypocrisy.
Obama said workers in right to work states have lower income, workers in Michigan will see their wages lower, actually he is wrong, not only they have a higher income than the , must be union to work states, the unemployment is lower.
"Compensation for private sector employees was more than$1,000 a year higher in right-to-work states in 2011 than the salaries of workers in states without such a law, citing figures from the National Institute of Labor Relations Research, a nonprofit group that describes itself as "analyzing and exposing the inequities of compulsory unionism."
Production plants are moving to more friendly states creating more jobs and improving their economies. Michigan will get better , they need jobs , this is the right thing to do. Thank you Governor.
Joe in Albany......you are either a liar (you know that AIG and all the wall street bankers have not repaid their bailout) or an idiot if you really think they have. GM is the only bailout that has repaid the Government for their bailout. And by the way the great gains in employment in Michigan is due to the bailout of the auto industry.
Pig you ask "Where is common sense??" Well it certainly isn't with mandatory union membership to get a job. In every state that has passed right to work laws the members have abandoned the unions. If the unions are so great and provide so many benefits why do the majority get out if they can? Why, because they charge dues that pads union bosses pockets and they have complete control over you and your job. In a union you do as they say or you're out. I was forced to be in a union and they provided nothing for the rank-in-file worker. The bigger the union becomes the more corrupt they become. Unions played an important roll in America's past. However, they are not needed for America's future.
"What bulls**t! NBC's just trying to intimidate Snyder for having the balls to stand up to the union thugs"
Oh yes -- "union thugs" -- the prescribed words coming from Fox and Limbaugh for their well trained parrots. But the reality is Governor Snyder, like the vast majority of Republican politicians in this nation, is committing slow suicide. Perhaps Republicans need to get their asses kicked in a few more elections before they realize that.
"Guess what, NBC, a lot of GOP pols outside of the DC Beltway couldn't give a damn less about what the libs and their media toadies think."
Sure spider -- just like all those polls showing an Obama victory and Democrats gaining seats in both the House and Senate were wrong. You keep listening to Rush the junkie and Fox. They'll tell you the "real" truth.
Obama has his own, what a coincidence....... Tim "Turbo Tax" Gaithner comes fro Goldman Sachs
Facts, my man, FACTS!!!
I don't see how "Right to Work" is going to help Michigan. Michigan needs better infrastructure to attract people and investment not some legislation with an agenda to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
For those touting the right to choice, people also have the right to not apply and work in a position that is Union-based. All I can see resulting is that employers will now employ lower-wage non-union workers, with little benefits, and eventually when current workers in unions leave or retire, the union will be weakened and phased out.
With this kind of legislation, maybe Michigan should also pass legislation that protect people who do decide to form unions from being fired and allows for an easier process to form a union rather than a lengthy legal process which favors the employer.
Germany has the strongest labor unions in the world; 3rd world countries have the weakest or none. Which would you rather model yourself after?
It seems the average American worker is envious instead of happy for his colleagues in unions that may be earning more and is taking on the Lobster Mentality where Big Business is boiling everyone, but the envious ones being boiled are dragging those willing to fight back into the pot.
FYI, I am not in a union, am employed, but I realize that I would not have the benefits I have now without the work of unions and realize that past benefits such as pensions are now gone due to the weakening of unions. With unions being further weakened, we can expect to see more benefits eradicated, and the rights of American workers starting to resemble those of Chinese factory workers rather than German factory workers.
Hey, Arthur66 of #1.32
I will give another finger to the governor. If he wants to be the center of attention for the wrong reason, then I have the center, or middle finger for him. He deserves both of mine.
Take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5tD71K6BZYo#!
People honestly think this is a good thing, well here is a little info of what this Right to Work BS is about they have taken something that many did not even consider away, they can now fire ANYONE without cause, like Age, Race, and Religion so now if they fire you you have NONE of those grounds, nice way to screw you all. Equal employment rights just got thrown out what a bunch of morons, so don't you dare complain about losing your job for any reason.
I have read comments on here which claim that you can get a job with a union company and not have to join the union. That is simply not true. It works that way in the right to work states, but not in others. I worked for a non union contractor years ago and made damn good money and we had one of the BEST crews in our industry. Our boss was generous and showed us the level of appreciation that we deserved. This was in 1987. We were making $18.63 an hr. We worked 6 hrs on straight with no break and got paid for 8. It worked out great for all of us, because the bosses productivity per wage hr. was up, and we got more time off for ourselves.
Then he inadvertantly bid on a job in which the general contractor was union, (it was a state/federal job, by the way). Our company won the sub bid, and we went to work, only to find out 2 weeks into the project that we were being forced by the union to join or we were going to be shut down and closed out. We were forced to pay the $348. initiation fee, (which the boss paid half), were then required to work a straight 8 hour day with the breaks, we were required to take a pay cut to $14.96 per hr., and were required to pay $1.20 per hr. in dues. Now if anybody can tell me how this benefitted anybody but the union bosses, I would be really impressed.
By the way, our production per wage hour dropped dramatically and the boss lost money which eventually cost him the business, which in turn cost us jobs.
At one time unions served a great purpose. Not anymore. They aren't out to protect anything but the big bosses lifestyle.
So yeah, Unions and those who work for them and support them can lick my scrotal sack.
Go with your bad self Michigan, kick those unions in the berries and send em packing.
Charlie-1915998
Yes Charlie, you're so right. I sit on three Boards of companies I created, grew and sold. I can't wait until the ink is dry on the two bills Gov. Snyder signs tomorrow.
The first thing I'm going to do is rip out all the time clocks to cover-up the 40 hour work-week and overtime evidence.
Oh wait, we don't use time clocks. I guess I'll just send a memo.
I'm going to have Bill Lumbergh in H.R. send a memo, along with the new TPS face sheet, that we are cancelling the Christmas and New Year’s holidays and the vacation time off. It's great Christmas Day is on Tuesday, I can make them all come in to work. That'll show them.
After the New Year I'm going to cut all wages to $7.25/hr. and cancel all benefits, profit sharing and legacy costs. Then I'll just wait until the next Republican president cancels the minimum wage laws, all the departments and agencies like OSHA, EEOC, the Labor Dept., the NLRB and others to make sure as many of my workers live in squalor and get injured on the job.
Finally, I'm going to Lakeside, Somerset and Great Lakes Crossing malls this weekend to gather up as many children from the Santa visit sites as possible. I figure I can get a few hundred kids to start off at the sweat-shops.
And I won't restrict them with 90 hour work-weeks, I'll just build some "living quarters" next to the factories.
You can just call me MISTER Robber Barron!
PIGotry-"Race-to-the bottom...that is how America has gone down to become 3rd world sweatshops."--You're consistently over dramatic. According to the National Institute of Labor Relations, right to work states have a higher percentage of growth, lower percentage of poverty, higher percentage of personal income and a higher percentage of workers covered by employer insurance programs. How can you LOGICALLY and not emotionally distort these figures?
Sorry Jody, but you're wrong on this. If it's a non-RTW state and it's a 'closed shop', the employee is required to join the union. But even the dumbest of the RWers would know this before accepting the job, so where's the 'force'? No one is forcing him to take the job; you're free to go get one of those 'good' non-union jobs if you can't stand the union. This is really about greed, as some want the benefits of the union but want to put that 'bad' dues money in their pockets. Once the unions are gone, you'll have neither...
The dirty secret of RTW is the fact that unions ARE forced by law (this was written into law by the GOP) to defend non-payers as if they are members. So if a non-member is fired or disiplined, they can demand that the union defend them even though they pay nothing to it. This is the same as at a non-union shop if an employee got in trouble or fired, they could hire a legal team for defense, then send the bill to the rest of the employees and they would be forced to pay it. I've asked the union-haters and RWNJ to explain how this promotes 'freedom' and 'personal responsibility' multiple times, but not a single one has stepped up to the plate. Empty rhetoric, empty heads....
Then he inadvertantly bid on a job in which the general contractor was union, (it was a state/federal job, by the way). Our company won the sub bid, and we went to work, only to find out 2 weeks into the project that we were being forced by the union to join or we were going to be shut down and closed out. We were forced to pay the $348. initiation fee, (which the boss paid half), were then required to work a straight 8 hour day with the breaks, we were required to take a pay cut to $14.96 per hr., and were required to pay $1.20 per hr. in dues. Now if anybody can tell me how this benefitted anybody but the union bosses, I would be really impressed.
Contrarian, that is complete BS fabricated out of you mind. I have worked many 'mixed' union/non-union state and federal jobs, and there is not requirement that you join the union. It's much more likely it was a private deal between your boss and the general, but he didn't havew the nuts to tell you...
The people of Michigan want a recall on Rick Snyder !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every-time we put a Republican into office we have a problem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will never Vote for an Republican again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GreaterGran,
Why are you against helping a fellow worker? I thought it was the unions against management and the more that you helped the fellow worker the more you "screwed" management. Why FORCE people to pay to work? I interpretation was your unions were based on "brotherhood", and "solidarity" Wouldn't those same members want to pay their dues? No one is hurting the unions except themselves. I thought that the left would be for this because those that can't afford to pay, the other members should share their burden, right? I mean isn't that the same logic that you on the left are using against those evil rich 2%'ers?
JohnWaynePolitics
John, Liberals/Progresives only deal with problems emotionally. that's why they never see the unintended consequences of all their mistakes. Things like policies or agenda's mean nothing to them.
This is why their solutions are always based on mythical, undefinable, ideologies like "fairness", a "level playing field" and of course the infamous, "living wage".
Ask them to define them or who will be the unbiased arbiter of these solutions and all you'll hear are crickets.
Ran out of time on my edit; the second-to-last paragraph in post 1.66 is a quote from Contrarian....
Pigotry, answer me this, why should ANYONE be forced to join a union? Ever heard of an open shop? That means you have the right to join the union, or not join the union. The difference? The one who isn't paying union dues takes home that money for their family where it needs to go. I worked for 35 years in non union shops, and never had any problems getting pay raises.
When is the GOPigs going to stop Cherry picking our Unions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Equal employment rights just got thrown out what a bunch of morons, so don't you dare complain about losing your job for any reason."
Yes, yes, that includes equal employment rights for the work place slackers who get unions to keep them from being fired for not doing their jobs, calling in sick on a weekly basis, coming in late more often than they are on time. Yep, just the thing that made this country what it has become.
Patriotic American- Just making a statement? Or should I ask the exact opposite...When will liberals stop demanding that everyone be on the exact same playing field? Word of the day in these posts needs to be Rhetoric...The ability to use language effectively.
Hows your Horse doing John Wayne, still running around with no shoes ???????????
Patriotic American, whatever happened to having the choice of working union or non union in this country? Why force people to work under a union?
No one is cherry picking your unions PA, it doesn't mean they are trying to force the unions out, it just means people should have the right to choose whether or not to join the union, and not be forced to.
Crazy Steve-1996926
You've got some nerve. I can only sit here and chuckle at your ignorance. You know nothing of me or my experiences in life. I can assure you that nothing that I have written is a fabrication of any kind. I like how you think that a man who I worked for for years just suddenly decided to screw a group of people who had worked for him on every job he got. It also doesn't explain why he paid us bonuses which were commensurate with what we lost, behind the union backs at the end of the job to show his appreciation for us. The only problem is that in the line of work I was in, we lost over 2 hours of production time per day due to having to dress out and decontaminate for every break and lunch, which is why we worked 6 and got paid for eight normally. For this reason we missed deadlines, which required him to hire more guys already in the union who didn't now what a good days work was and we just got screwed. And yeah the boss lost a TON of money because of deadline fines and extra labor costs. I don't know where you have worked on Union/non union jobs, but I would be willing to bet it is in a state where right to work laws don't exist. We even questioned it ourselves, but the proof was in the paperwork.
By the way, I haven't met a union worker yet who could come close to working at the pace we set. I would be willing to bet you are one of those guys aren't you. Aw well, don't take it too hard, there aren't too many people anymore who know how to do a real days work, they just want to hide behide their unions.
Pigotry stated (1.10)
as opposed to union thuggery and big government being stuffed down our throats?
there are plenty of 'workers rights' laws on the books to protect most people. Unions had a time and place but that time has passed.
The unions will still get there way, just wait til the first person opts out of paying union dues, work life will be hell for that person. For the union leaders, this is all about money and protecting their income not workers rights.
JohnWaynePolitics
Maybe she is 'overly dramatic', but you'd be way more believable is you didn't use false references from a RTW shill site.
RTW states are nearly all in the top half of states that have the highest use of welfare, food stamps, and medicaid. They're also in the top half of states that receive more money from the federal government than they pay in. They also are in the bottom half in terms of public education quality. The majority of them are 'red states', so I guess we know where most of the 'takers' are. They also fall into the top half of states with the poorest workplace safety records. These are all the things that RTW 'buys' you...
No emotion, just the facts.
Only in America-2604171
"I worked for 35 years in non union shops, and never had any problems getting pay raises."
Exactly. I'd be willing to bet they were merit raises too, huh? Raises that you had earned through hard work, and not just because you were breathing air at your position.
One of the biggest problems with this country today is that nobody knows how to work for their compensation anymore. Unions may have served a good purppose at one point in time, but today they have effectively ruined our workforce and turned them into a bunch of self entitled overpaid whiners who look up to a bunch of thieves for protection.
I have been forced to join before and lost money in the process. I can't stand working next to a union slacker, who gets pissed at me for doing my job to the best of my ability. And how anyone can think that the passing of this legislation is a bad thing is beyond me.
moshuluu
Barrack Husseins 2008 campaign received $42 million, more than any other candidate in history, from Wall Street bankers and financial insiders. Obama, as a senator, voted for the Wall Street bailout in 2008. So did 73 of the other 99 Democrat controlled senators.
Goldman Sachs partner Gary Gensler is Obama’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission head. He was confirmed despite heated congressional grilling over his role, as Reuters described it, “as a high-level Treasury official in a 2000 law that exempted the $58 trillion credit default swap market from oversight. The financial instruments have been blamed for amplifying global financial turmoil.”
Gensler said he was sorry. Hey, it worked for tax cheat Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner.
Rahm Emanuel received nearly $80,000 in cash from Goldman Sachs during his four terms in Congress, investments that have reaped untold rewards, as Emanuel assumed a leading role championing the trillion-dollar TARP banking bailout law.
In a few short words, Golden Sacks OWNS the Obama administration.
Facts, my man, FACTS!!!
3thirty3 #1.55~~Without unions, Americas future WILL be Americas past. Sweat-shop work-place, hazardous work-place, no minimum wage, no paid vacation leave, no paid sick leave, no holiday pay, no over-time pay, no 8 hour work day, no 40 hour work week, no night and/or week-end shift differential pay,no child labor laws, no work place injury compensation, no dis-ability access and/or rights, no mandatory lunch and rest breaks, no family medical leave act, no maternity leave act, no pension plans, no retirement plans, no health insurance, etc. All of you who are so ill informed, to think that only dems have un-deserved union benefits, need to take an objective look at your own benefits and you will see that you enjoy the same benefits as union members, without paying union dues. I would challenge all of you to render, all of these benefits to your employer, and actively encourage all employees to do the same. Try it, and let us all know how much better your employer treats you!
Ah, Contrarian....
Ignorance, eh? LOL! I edited out out your mid-paragraph job description blather as none of it matters to the point. Where have I worked on mixed jobs? Lots of places; state, federal civilian, federal military. Slightly different rules between them, but none that matter for purposes of demolishing your falsehoods. And yes, these were in a non-RTW state but that doesn't matter; RTW only affects unions and has nothing to do with open shops.
So, where was this job? If state, it might be conceivable that there is a state requirement, but if so, give me a reference to it. Some states do have variation in how their 'little' Davis-Bacon rules work, so prove it to me. I'm waiting....
If federal, I know there's no requirement for union membership. The feds do have Davis-Bacon ('prevailing wage' which is nearly always the same as union because the unions are the only people who bother to turn in the wage surveys that it's based on), but that merely requires that you receive the total union wage package. If you're non-union, that means you see the total amount on your check; wage rate plus all other paid benefits like pension and health insurance. If you do have any benefits through your non-union employer that are deducted from your check, the employer is prevented from deducting them unless they match the rates shown on the wage schedule, which won't be likely. All the feds care about is that you're being paid either the wages and benefits on the schedule or the 'total package' amount. They could care less if you're union or not.
So there's several likely scenarios that caused what happened. One, your shop owner was pressured by the General to sign an agreement to prevent 'trouble' and he rolled over. The General may have been in cahoots with his union or others, seeing an opportunity to sign a contractor and your owner was too dumb to know his rights. Then your owner either lied to you or passed on his ignorance in forcing his employees to join. If anybody from the feds was involved, they were violating the law and had probably been paid off by somebody. But the fact remains, there is no LEGAL requirement that you must be union to work federal jobs. The only possible way you could be forced to join the union would be if your employer signed an agreement and you weren't in a RTW state. By signing that agreement, he agreed to only employ union members, so your choice at that point is join up or quit. If it was a RTW state, you didn't have to join, but you would still be paid the same as a union member with the benefits going to the union trust funds.
Ignorance? Yep, there's some involved; your boss, both of you, or just you, thinking you can pass this fairy tale off as real. If you don't know your rights (and that's the way your GOP masters like it), then be ready for yet more surprises.
Show me a legal citation that backs up your story and I'll believe you (but there isn't any), otherwise this is just so much fiction that has fermented out of all the other BS in your head.
GREATGRAN,
This is about the dumbest post I've read today. No, I take that back. It is the dumbest post I've read today. Riddle me this genius. Why haven't all of these things come to pass already given that of all the working population union workers only make up 11.4% of the workforce? You probably should just go back to bed.
On another note I think Ohio needs to be the next target. Give it two years and with positive results showing in Michigan I believe a Right to Work campaign in Ohio will be successful.
Where is NBC and being a NEWS STATION!! For those who ONLY go to the liberal media (NBC News, etc.) you probably don't know that your union thugs attacked and punched a conservative newscaster who was simply asking why the union was against "right to work". I thought liberals were the ones that "cared"? The ones that believe in "freedom of speech"?
But it goes one step further: There was an elderly black gentleman who owns a small portable hot dog stand and was hired to serve hot dogs. He was attacked by union thugs who ripped up his tent, turned over his hot dog stand, and damaged all his equipment and materials. So all those times you called the Tea Party "racists" when there was never any evidence where is the outcry when the union thugs attacked a black man and took away his ability to earn a living?
You liberals REALLY need to look around and see the damage your fellow "liberals" are doing. You can't count on liberal media like NBC news, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, or CBS to forward the REAL events taking place. Open your eyes and take off your blinders: The Democrat Party and union thugs are using your lack of knowledge and inability to determine the truth for yourself. Just ask the questions. Just go to other media outlets to find out what is going on.
Although I disagree with many other news outlets I still go to ALL of them to see what information is out there. And should I see something I had not heard yet on "my" news station then I at least go through the motions of researching to determine if I can find out the truth. I suggest you do the same because when I found out this elderly black man in Michigan was attacked by union thugs I immediately went to the other stations and found nothing. Zilch. Nada. No comment about a black man attacked by liberal union thugs NOR any story about a conservative newscaster attacked for asking a question. Is THAT what liberals stand for? Attacks on innocent people? Hiding the truth from their base? Is THAT the group you want to support? If so then you are not human - you are not an adult - you are incompetent and a lemming. Just look for the truth and then ask yourself why your Democrat Party and your liberal union thugs are afraid to tell you the truth.
Snyder is not a nerd, but a partisan hack...who will go down in infamy.
well, just to be cynical, they did vote for him, overwhelmingly, so his MANDATE should be followed, right?
ok, i'm just toying with ya!
mandate is always for doing the right thing, not the right-wing-nut thing. Snyder is self-destructive. The entire GOP leadership is suicidal.
You are a piece of work Pigotry, you know nothing about anything!!!!!
Hey, comment#2.3 -
Why haven't some of my fellow Americans changed a bit? Sometimes, they just tell me 'you know nothing', as iowaretiree just did again today here upstairs! To these folks, by just saying that, they believe they have won the argument...some of them haven't changed in 400 years. Some never learn!!! Hey, iowaretiree, I thought, with age comes wisdom; you have just disproved this adage.
I have enough wisdom to know what right to work law means, it does nothing to ban unions, it just gives you a choice whether to join it or not, so with your comment you're the one without any wisdom!!!
I just chuckled - but - Those who say don't know, those who know don't say.
Pigotry:
Totally thought of you when I saw this!
check this out:
http://holidayblog.today.com/_news/2012/12/11/15844204-holiday-bash-town-pummels-peppermint-pigs-for-holidays?lite
Pigotry, I think I know more than you when it comes to unions, I belonged to one for 28 years until the company went bankrupt because of union nonsense, from there I worked for a nonunion company and did quite well until my retirement, so until you live the experience don't tell me who has more wisdom!!!
iowaretiree, there is no requirement for any person who accepts a job in a union company to join the union; it's just not true. Most people join eventually but they are not forced to join. You are merely repeating everything you've been told for the last 30 years by republicans. Companies don't go bankrupt because of "union nonsense", they go bankrupt for lots of reasons such as failure to upgrade and invest in modern equipment, poor management, failure to keep up with the times and offer a product people want, global competition but it has nothing to do with unions. Bain Capital bought a lot of companies, got rid of the unions, fired the workers then rehired them at lower pay for 4, 5, and maybe 10 years then declared bankruptsy after failing to invest in modernization and overleveraging by borrowing to buy the next business.
Pigotry... Did you see the picture of Jesse Jackson supporting the unions? Now there's a learning issue for you. Next person to the podium,,, would it, could it be Jesse Jackson Jr? Tune in folks to the next exciting episode of, "All but brain dead and the Democrats prevail with their candidate again". One of these days they'll actually elect a dead one... but have a Democrat in the coroner's office. Jesse Jackson. It must have been one of those life sized photos you stand next to to get your photograph with, not the real thing.
Now we have the RIGHT to join a union or not?!!
FORWARD!
Why the dishonesty? You know very well not only do RTW states castrate the unions, within a few years they depress workers wages...significantly. So now that you are on a path to depress middle-class wages, what's the plan to improve "demand"? You know, they thing that drives the economy?
Wanna bet the so called "party hack" gets re-elected again in the next election. The majority of the state supports the work he has done (10 times better of a job than the do nothing Grandholm did in the 8 years she was in office) and that's what's important. Michigan is finally moving in the right direction.
What a sell out to big money GOP. This guy is the worst of the worst. Very corrupt.....obviously. These are not the kind of people we need running our country. Passing laws with a bunch of lame duck loser republicans. PLEEZE Hope he got enough money to live off of for the rest of his life. He won't have a political career after this!
Hey, AlaskaGirl-759554 of #2.7
Thanks. Those are some of the really cute pigs.
When Michigan goes heavy democrat in the next election this crap will get overturned!!!!
There is no such thing as being a Democrat anymore....just PROGRESSIVES.
Michigan is going the way of California....down the tubes. Wait a minute......maybe Mr. Obama will fly back to Detroit and "bring home the bacon".
The Republican party is self destructing and their supporters who don't think their parties crazy bills won't affect them will start screaming when it affects them. I know they like to think their party is doing what's best for us all but thank goodness the majority of Americans are not that ignorant. These Republican officials tell their constituents one thing (lie) to get elected and then they do the opposite. Isn't that what Bush/Cheney did (lie) so they could send over 4,300 of our young men and women to their deaths. The GOP are a disgrace to America and proving democracy is a farce. They should all resign and reimburse America all their salaries they have received for the last four years. They scream about the poor and unemployed milking the system when in fact they are ones doing the milking.
Winker I only hope you are right, and I hope they do it faster.... I'll help destroy a few fascists!!!
We had on the ballot this year a proposal to constitutionalize bargaining rights that we defeated. That does not imply that we wanted a law in the opposite direction. My issue with this, is they didn't put it up to the people for a vote. Why? because they know it would've been defeated! Limited government my arse! It seems every time I turn around our Republican government is trying to ram through laws one after another against unions. This is a big union state. Practically everyone I know belongs to one union or another and they make a comfortable living. I'm not a union member but I have to qualms of joining one if it meant I earned a better living. I say leave em' alone...
Elliot. You think that the Union Thugs are getting violent? You aint seen nuttin yet. You are probably to young or to ignorant to remember Union Organization in the Forties and the Fifties. The Unions may have just lost a battle, but I can guarantee you, the WAR has not started yet. I am suprised at the Governor, Either he does not like his job or he also is Ignorant. I will be very surprised if he makes it through his term as Governor, and if he does, he or no other Republican should ever get elected or re-elected in Michigan. If a Republican ever gets Elected in Michigan again, then the Unions do deserve what they get.
Yeah, wascigarman #2.21
history books are full of stories that union members were routinely murdered in the 40s and 50s for fighting to get their contitutional rights of equal protection under the law. Governor Snyder and Gov. Walker have tried to erase these lessons from history books. But Walker and Snyder are already erased by history books.
Pig,
Lil michelle is correct...he won in his state based on his mandate...isn't that the same line you are using against Republicans from Obama's win? You can't have it both ways...be all upset when one side wins and then bitch if the other side doesn't play along. You are complaining because you are in the minority in Michigan politics and are doing anything and everything to stop the majority. Isn't that the same thing the Republicans are doing on a national scale?
So if you are ok with the minority in Michigan trying to keep the majority from passing their mandate, why are you so against the Republicans trying to keep the majority (President) from passing his mandate?
Did any one see illiot's notes, all Hogwash !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that anything like how the Republicans are all now just TEABAGGERS?
It's funny how in the great state of Michigan any of you can still stand up for the unions. It was the unions which drove wages up so damned high that the Automakers decided to bail on the American Auto workers and build plants in other countries so that they could even begin to try to compete with the foreign companies which have to pay less for labor. Detroit sure is thriving huh? I mean come on! The average GM worker made over 105k last year and got bonuses on top of that, while the company still lost money. How the hell does this math compute for you guys?! I am a trained expert Mechanic, who I would be willing to bet has more training and experience than any of the line lops working for GM and I don't make even close to that much. How is it "fair" when someone can come out of high school and make more than many of my co-workers who have been fixing the crap that you union drudges turn out "with pride"? HUH?!!! I have friends who have kids who came out of high school to work for Boeing, and make more than their parents, and yet still don't know what a good days work is. I have friends who work there as well and they have shared stories of being told to "slow down before you make us look bad and piss people off". I have worked for union companies and was personally told to slow down. I wasn't raised to work at the limp dick pace that the union cockroaches teach. I have seen people who couldn't be fired because of unions. My ex-wife was employed at our local school district, and she was protected by the unions on many occasions, you see she is a drunk and couldn't seem to go a full week without missing time. When they tried to fire her the union stepped in and stopped it. She was finally cut through budget cuts and personnel cutbacks. What ever happened to working for your money? Whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up? Whatever happened to being accountable to your commitment to your job? I have had to work with people who think they deserve a raise just because they punch a clock and breath air, but don't get sh-t done.
Yeah,,,, the union BS is great. NOT! I have no respect for any union or its members. I don't see how driving a company to bankruptcy through greed and laziness is a good thing. I don't see how the tax payer should have to foot the bill for cronic incompetence because the unions protect the inept and the lazy. and I don't see how preventing someone from working, because they don't feel that they should have to pay some crooked assed fatcat for the priveledge is right either.
Unions and there members can lick my scrotal sack.
Go with your bad self Michigan.
Hey, Patriotic American U.S.A. @2.24
I think you are talking about my bathwater? Don't throw out the piglet with the hogwash.
Here is what I am going to say about it, I do agree that people should have the right to choose to be in a union or not. I am in a Union myself and for those that do not know if you join a work place that is unionized yes you do have to join that union. But I am happy to be a union member, but back to the subject. I believe that yes people should be able to choose if they want to join one or not. There should be a freedom of choice, but like all choices there should be consequence for the action or route that you do choose, like not having the same benefits of union workers. I feel that if you choose to not be a union member than you should not have the same benefits and are subjected to whatever the company gives you. I believe someone had a great idea of adding laws that protect union workers and the union, which is a good idea. But in the end, if you do not like what the Govenor did than once again as I see time and time again you have the right to choose to vote him out and the others that voted for the law and put in a new people who will work with the unions. Just a thought...
Elor,
Nice post...but wouldn't you also agree that also applies in a more general sense? I take for example people that don't pay taxes...shouldn't they then not be entitled to the benefits of people that do pay taxes? Just curious on your thoughts... My take on this would be that if people truly believed that the union was representing their best interests, then they would be more than happy to pay dues. I mean doesn't that make sense? I would think it would be up to the unions to demonstrate to the non paying members what advantages they have because of the union. It would seem that the union is more worried about people not joining the union because the union doesn't do enough to protect their rights that they feel that the union has "earned" their dues. Remember, no one is stopping people from joining the union, no one is forbidding them from paying dues should they wish to. Union minded folks would (and should) see that if they want to stay strong and united that they need to do a great job convincing non-member to become members....
illiot must be out walking, we have a full moon !!!!!!!!!!!!
Pigotry, watch out for the Bats, it gets scary out there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jody, iowa 2.9
They don't?? two words "Hostess Bakeries"
Worm meat,
I would add to that "Eastern Airlines".
Pigotry vs Iowaretiree
Iowaretiree is winning.
2 things Killing this Country.....
1. UNIONS - Cost of Labor is way to HIGH.....
2. Corporate Officer's - Outrage's cost needs to be DECREASED.....
THANK YOU Mr. Nerd for standing up to the 1st problem, when are the rest of the NON-RIGHT TO WORK states going to get on board.....
Now if we could get Corporate Boards to start to do the 2nd part.....
Republicans really do hate their fellow man trying to get ahead...let's all join the reichwing race to the bottom...even the reps in my state of NC are proud that they have made us 48th in education spending but resent Ms and AL being 'ahead' of us...
Huh???? Republicans hate their fellow man getting ahead? ? ? ? I thought it was the Democrats and lefty liberals that punish success. Oh those eeeeeeeeveeeeil rich!! Tax the rich - no fair - we maust tax the rich
When are people going to believe that we have already gone over the fiscal cliff? The cookie jar is more than empty. We are filling it with imitation paper cookies now to try to get the world to believe that things are still sweet here in the good old U.S.A. The good old U.S.A. is a thing of the past if we follow the present course of the government coming to rescue us. All they will soon be throwing us is a paper rope. Believe it. The cookies are gone. We ate them all in our previous decade's gluttony - spending, spending, spending without the means to pay. If we don't act responsibly now, we will never resurface to truly be the nation everyone wants - a nation of opportunity.
Rick, I'm not a Republican nor a Democrat. Both parties suck. Our political system is in shambles. No one is working for the middle class white man and a few minorities that have some degree of pride and are not constantly asking for a handout. The government owes you NOTHING. I would love to see everyone get ahead but not on my dollar. I've worked my ass off since I was 16 years old, went to the military, college on GI Bill and have done quite well. I'll not apologise to anyone nor do I want a pat on the back. I simply want your sorry ass to get your paws off my wallet.
There are many on the right who think the GI Bill is an entitlement. If they had their way no one would get any kind of hand up, no matter what they have done for others.
And Republicans don't want anyone who isn't in their club to get ahead. Country club mentality all the way.
Ron42 as you used the GI bill paid for with tax dollars to go to college and as you use your socialized medicine (VA) paid for by tax dollars you would support taking benefits lie SS and medicare from people who pay for those plus your military benefits..... That sounds hypocritical, and before you go all patriotic about going in the military, any moron can sign up for the military and they are not picking about who they take for targets. And the tax payers paid your salary while you were living free on a base, with no mortgage or bills or rent..... Yeah instead of being in your parents basement you were mooching off the rest of us. Thanks for your disservice!
Shar J the GI bill is an entitlement, when I talked to recruiters after I graduated and they all told me what a cake job the military is and the GI bill and medical for life, I said to them, and you call this service? I got the same story from all the recruiters, Army, navy and Morons. I took the ASVAB test and qualified fro 70% of any of the positions they had. ALL the recruiters told me that military life was easy, it was a 9 to 5 job, you can go to cool locations (hawaii and such). I refused because they make you get those dorky haircuts plus it did not seem fair to take such a candyass job on the tax payers dime.
Shinelight has got it right. The issues here are a lot bigger than the debates going on here and elsewhere. We've been propped up by increasing levels of debt, heaped upon our children's back, for decades. But that is coming to an end and now printing money is keeping us afloat. That too will only last so long, with further erosion of the American lifestyle looking to be baked in the cake . And the worst part? We've got a long ways to fall before we are truly living within our means
Shinelight. You are correct about only paper in the Cookie Jar. The real Problem is that you did not explain that the Paper slips are inside a Chinese Fortune Cookie. The Bush Regime put us so far in Debt, that is is no longer funny. If the Chinese really wanted to collect, the United States would be in real trouble. I say let the United States go over the Fiscal Cliff, cut spending that is in the Fiscal Cliff agreement that the Republicans so wanted a year ago, but do not want today.
Stop it Rick, you're confusing them. Republicans don't consider working Americans to be their fellow man. That would imply equality, which simply doesn't work in an Oligarchy. You should have understood that with the 47% rant by Romney. "Some" Americans simply aren't equal and will never be their "fellow man".
When you Vote for a Republican, this is what you get !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This must be a big Win Win for the Koch Baggers, but a big lose for Michigan !!!!!!!!!!
Throw all the Koch paid bums out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All this does is create lower wages and less benefits for American workers.
Hey but that is what republicans want. Why else do they support Wallstreet and corporation desire to use cheap communist Chinese labor.
nothing could be more obvious then this. The fact is Republicans embrace communism by allowing and supporting these corps to move to Chinese ans sell us cheap crap, by backing the walmarts etc...
nope-just allows people to work and not be FORCED to join a union. really simple except for you kool aid drinkers.
Those tin foil hats must get exceptional reception in the land of bull@!$%#.
Right Jimbo.
Why is the median income in right to work states lower than the national average?
Will any of anyones living expenses be reduced as a benefit of right to work?
Will companies reduce prices on their products or services as a result of right to work laws?
Jim, if a company remains unionized, and there will be many, should those that do not join a union be entitiled to the higher negotiated wages that union membership brings or do you think there will be a two tiered system for employees?
Does a company provide a job or does the union? I think most workers just want a level field...and to be paid for what they produce.
Why is unemployment lower in right to work states?
Right-to-work states do have lower average wages than non–right-to-work states, but this is because they are located primarily in the South, which was once much less developed than the North and still has a lower cost of living. Research controlling for this shows that workers in right-to-work states have, if anything, slightly higher wages.
Reference: - W. Robert Reed, “How Right-To-Work Laws Affect Wages,” Journal of Labor Research, Vol. 24, No. 4 (October 2003), pp. 713–730.
@Some Guy
hmmmm... good question. I work in one of those states and we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country...
not sure how that worked out...
It's easy...for every 1 union full time job that gets destroyed 2 part time crap jobs take it's place. No benefits, lower pay, worse safety records. The republican math is simple
1 real living wage job = 2 part time RTW crap jobs. That's a net +1 job...right? Check the decades of stats on your RTW states. Middle class loses in RTW states...100% proven and certified.
I love the people that make bogus claims and provide no details or substantive proof then say "look it up" or "100% proven and certified". If you want to change peoples minds then back up your claims and post a source. Otherwise, you are blowing hot air. .....stepping off of soapbox.....
But watch the REPUBLICANS in WASHINGTON scream like banshees if We the People try to take away their Gold standard benefits.
@Frank
My biggest problem with this law is the two tiered system not just for wages, but also for how employees may be treated. This is only going to cause confusion and problems.
If the current GOTP really wanted to fix the many problems and issues with the current unions, they would address those issues directly rather than saying and doing anything they can to destroy them.
@Sarcasm... while links don't show up here, try typing Right to Work and $1500 and you'll see thousands of sites and articles citing the new survey that says that the RTW workers make an average of 1500 less a year, 2-5% less in wages, benefits and pensions and are much more likely to be hurt on the job. Unemployment is higher or equal to non-rtw states. Buy hey, don't let OVERWHELMING facts and scientific studies sway your uninformed opinion.
I guess the next step is to lower the minimum wage, or do away with it outright.
That would make Republican @!$%#wads cream in their pants.
why would lower wages make us happy. I am a 1% business owner and I pay $5.00 over the going rate. my money, my people, they're happy, I'm happy.
What do we need a minimum wage for? That cuts the "job creators" profit. The way republicans see there are 24 hours in a day. What's wrong with working 16 of the 24? One could and should keep working till the day you die. In the "job creators" we trust. Thats the republican way!
Yes these greedy @!$%#s would have a portrait of Mr. Potter over their fireplaces if he were a real person.
Instead they have portraits of Reagan a B Hollywood Actor, and the first of the big overspenders.
John Bayner
Yes these greedy @!$%#s would have a portrait of Mr. Potter over their fireplaces if he were a real person.
Instead they have portraits of Reagan a B Hollywood Actor, and the first of the big overspenders.
JB
I agree and the great St. Ronald raised taxes 11 times and had the biggest deficit of any president. He's a myth and a fraud but to the Repugs he's their hero. He would be tarred and feathered today and branded a heretic. He set the path for busting Unions. Since the late 1960's as Unions have diminished so have wages and benefits for all workers as their right to negotiate diminishes. Contrast that with the ability of corporations to get lobbyist in to see politicians to get what they need what chance does the working man have?
Smitty, It's call OSHA and the Department of Labor. There are laws that control these things today. That was not true in the early 20th century when unions were deparately needed. They have simply outlived their usefullness. And by the way, the American labor monement was started by Russian communists following the Bolshevik revolution in 1917. Ever study history beyond the fantasy stories that pass for history in our public schools. No way did George Washington throw a silver dollar across the Potomac. It's fantasy. Neither did he cut down the cherry tree. Sorry to disapoint you.
Do away with it!
Then workers can apprentice, learn the skills of the trade, and move up - rather than perpetually get stuck at the same, low wage.
If what you say is true...clearly you are an exception to the rule and deserving of congratulations on your and your company's success. As to your question regarding lower wages...I give you US Corporations manufacturing in China.
The Mine Safety and Health Administration is also there to control things today...and it doesn't work. Mine owners know it's much cheaper to pay fines than to effect changes that would make the mine a safer place to work. So they gamble with their employees lives, violate the law and pay the fines when workers die. Walmart is a great example ignoring labor laws and paying the fines DOL levies on them. Walmart is notorious for wage and hour law violations, specifically overtime laws. It's cheaper for them to pay the back wages and fine for a given location than to adhere to the law nationwide.
Funny how you make a statement like "That was not true in the early 20th century when unions were deparately needed." and in nearly the same breath state that the American Labor Movement was started by a communist. What's really weird is that statement it's self. Where did that come from...FOX News? The National Labor Union was founded in 1866 (a few years prior to your 1917 date). It apparently had nothing to do with the Bolshevik revolution. You aren't related to Charles Koch by any chance...or Prescott Bush? In fact, in 1636 there was a fisherman's strike off the coast of Maine (somewhat predating the Bolshevik revolution).
Snyder is nothing more than a Ricky Devos toad. If Rich Devos says jump, Snyder jumps. When Snyder has the Koch brothers and the Devos family on him he better do what they say!
Snyder is defending the rights of the worker to be able to choose or choose not to join unions.
By proxy, this legislation provides a way for Michigan's wrecked economy to be on the mend. Businesses abhorr closed shop collective-bargaining states and avoid them like the plague. Now maybe the state can attract some of the companies that have retreated over the years. That is, if the screaming lefties allow it.
You are going to be able to get a job in Michigan now without having to pay off the union officials and the Democrat politicians.
Do you want jobs, or do you want no new jobs? Any company or investor, or even a foreign company wanting to set up shop in the USA, will not look at union controlled states to locate in. It makes absolutley no sense to be paying a union to attempt to strong arm the companies and HR professionals.
Of course, by adopting right-to-work, you effectively emasculate the unions and collective bargaining along with them. Guess Snyder figured out there was more than one way around the block...
If Unions are so great then right to work wouldn't matter because EVERYONE would choose to join the union, so no difference right?
Now EVERYONE can choose to work for a lot less instead.
No, Ursula, I can choose to WORK FOR MORE!!! YAY!!! No more union dues means I have more disposable income in my paycheck. I can stimulate the economy by buying more groceries and maybe going out to eat or to the movies once in a while!! Good for the middle class!!!
Noob is right.... why wouldn't everyone join the union since it makes benefits better and pay better and make it almost impossible to get fired? Sounds like a hell of deal to me.
@Oscar... sure you can. Until your management decides that you should make minimum wage for your labor. Good luck with that.
Oscar: come back to us when you haven't had a raise in 2-3 years and your boss tells you you have to work MORE overtime without compensation!
Oscar, you might CHOOSE to work for a lot more, but the companies that are hiring just won the lotto with this law and they can pay what they want ... which is a lot less. Doesn't matter what skills, training or experience you have because self-taught, Joe the plumber will work for peanuts, and the bottom line is management's only focus.
Then he finds another job, or he joins a union. The fact is he should be allowed to make that choice, not be forced into it by having to pay union dues to even get a job in the first place.
Unions aren't going to disappear from these states that adopt this 'right to work' policy.
Unions aren't going to disappear from these states that adopt this 'right to work' policy.
But they are going to impact the wages and benefits which will be lower. Why do you think they have been off shoring ....so they can drive wages down. You people seriously need to pull your heads out of your fannies! Just look at all those wonderful low wage jobs in the South. Those are the same states that get more money allocated from the government (blue states) then what they pay in federal dollars, have the most welfare and lowest educational systems. Wow that's a lot to look forward to for your children right!
Tell me when you go buy a car or a house do you negotiate the best terms? Well that's a good reason to have a Union do it in numbers there is power.
You know, I have never had a hard time in my Right to Work state. My pay is competitive. I have insurance. I provide for my family. I find the best way to negotiate for wage increases is to be better at my job than my peers. It has seemed to work well for me. Those in Michigan that are concerned should perform better than their peers and the money will come regardless of the passage of right to work policies.
Haven't we been told that elections have consequences? Doesn't that include state elections?
Yes, indeed it does include state elections. It is our job now to work to remove Snyder, along with a majority of the republicans in Lansing. This is retribution by Snyder because the unions attempted to "constitutionalize" collective bargaining. Pissed him off big time, as well, to have the voting public vote down his undemocratic emergency manager law....this mans' ego does not allow challenge when he decides something. A good example of that is his hell bent goal of building a bridge, whether the taxpayers want it or not. Doesn't matter.....HE WANTS IT! We'll find out just how tough he is in 2014....
OK, find out how tough he is in 2014. We'll see if he follows the Walker pattern or not... In the meantime, emulating the protesters in Madison might not do you any favors with public opinion...it didn't in the Walker recall.
I lived in Bay City for a year in the mid 80's and still have friends there with whom I speak on occasion. I saw with my own eyes what was happening to places like Saginaw, Flint, and (the few times I got down that way) Detroit. I hear things are far worse now. Whose policies got them into that mess? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting.
People standing up against the outrageous behavior of republicans pushed by the Koch brothers is the American way and it is our right. Standing up to Scott Walker was worth it. It put him through a recall and brought a lot of attention to the state. These republicans will pay the price for their behavior against workers, women and fair and just policies. Republicans have been working only for the greed of billionaires regardless of the consequences to their workers. Goodwill is leaving America as republicans become more and more indifferent to people and their families.
Don't worry, Vicki, George Soros will no doubt come to the rescue.
pigotry-you are as full of crap as a christmas turkey. a job without a union is better than a union with no job any day. all this anger and hatred from you? what's going on with someone being able to have a job and NOT have to be a union member. the unions don't get it-people don't like you. we sent people from the south to help in nj and ny and what happened-the punk union boys acted like a$$holes. no sympathy here-your leaders made your bed, now get in it with them. leave us alone that just want a job.
gentleman jim Well christmas turkeys have no crap in them. So that makes pigotry right. If you get crap in your turkey don't eat it. But if you do well..................
ALL states should have right-to-work laws. I praise this governor for standing up for what is RIGHT for ALL Americans. One of OUR freedoms SHOULD be whether you want to be in a union or not, and whether you want to hire union labor or not. PERIOD!!!!
That certainly is your choice. However, we need to work to change the laws that allow employees the benefits of the union if they take a job in a unionized company, and decline to join. They certainly should not be "carried" on the backs of those who pay their dues. If this happens, there will be very real problems re: teamwork between the union members and the freeloaders. That's just human nature. The issue of fairness needs to be addressed.
I agree carolyn! Let's address the issue of fairness. Like the 47% being carried on the backs of the 53%. Or does your fairness only apply when it comes to unions?
Quite the interesting concept. I wonder how that works on the federal level. Certainly we can't have people supported by those who actually "pay their dues"
Dougler, so much said in so few words.....nice!
carolyn -
Then I guess you agree with those who don't actually pay in any ioncome taxes shouldn't get to vote, either? After all, if you don't pay your 'dues' to a union, you don't get to vote in their elections, do you?
carolyn -
Why would there be real problems with teamwork? Unless of course union members are not team players that want their company to do good so they HAVE a job. Freeloaders? Really? If they are working then they can't be freeloaders. Ask the union that just put Hostess out of business for good how they like being unemployed. I guess unemployment was a better option than having a job. Get over it, unions have done more to hurt companies and available jobs over the last couple of decades than they did to help ANY employee. I have NEVER been in a union or worked for a company that had one but I have always made a decent living and I have retirement. So I wasn't "carried" on the backs of anyone. Nor did I have to pay any dues to attain what I have. Good luck to those union members who now joined the other 8% who CAN'T find a job.
My mom told me a story of why she decided not to become a teacher for this reason. She was told that to become a teacher she had to join the union and pay union dues and it was mandatory. The union would also tell her what her political affiliation had to be (how to vote) or what doctor she was allowed to see if she got hurt at work. How is that freedom? And if union membership is mandatory, then what incentive does the union have to actually do the things for its members that a union is supposed to do?
What other factless fairytails did she tell you, and how do all your pshyco therapists feel about that?
Explain what is untrue about my comment, please
Noob - your post is a lie. A union doesn't tell someone what party affiliation they have to be. When you are hurt at work you are usually sent to the nearest doctor if it is an emergency or, if you have a PPO - you choose the doctor you want. HMO? You have to see a particular group of doctors. And, that works whether you're union or not.
Making up lies is foolish as everyone knows better!
...yeah that's what I thought
Actually I work in the work comp industry and in my state, I know for a fact that Unions direct care since I have seen it first hand. I've seen the flyers and the physicians on the "approved" list with the union info on top. I've talked to good, qualified, board-certified, physicians with flawless records who have tried to get on those lists. I've also seen plenty of physicians under fraud investigation on those lists. (Take a minute to look at the public records) Emergencies are different and I know that. Of course nobody can tell you how to vote once you are in the booth, but every single union employee that I have spoken to, across multiple sectors has told me they are pretty much told who to vote for. There may not be a set law in place that tells you who to vote for or what doctor to see, but it's the principle that bothered my mother. In her case, it is actually against her religion to vote, she doesn't care about political parties. She just didn't feel like she should have to declare an affiliation or be forced to join something she had no interest in. This is the heart of the argument, and these are not lies.
What are you talking about?
First, how the heck could a union know how your mother voted? Unions may support candidates, but they can't force you to vote in a certain way. Second, if they were talking about disability well, yes, there are certain doctors you need to see to be verified for disability, but it's not like she had to go to a certain doctor if she got a cold.
Seriously, my sister was a teacher. If these are the actual reasons your mother had for not becoming a teacher, it was probably just as well.
Noob - your post, again, is untrue. Many employers encouage their workers to support particular candidates - no union involved - but that is as far as it goes. No union demands anyone vote any particular way - they couldn't if they wanted to. You DO know your vote is private, right?
No one says you have to see a particular doctor either.
I'm talking about work related injuries, not colds. Disability certification is a requirement for benefit rewards and it's there because there are so many hack, corrupt doctors out there and the insurance industry (and US govt.) has to protect themselves against them. A disability certification exam is usually just one visit. And my point is that my mother doesn't vote, she took a vow to be politically neutral. That is her choice and it's her right to do that. I do vote, but I'm not stuck to one party. Now that we have cleared that up, I would like someone to explain to me how right to work hurts unions...
Well, they can use your dues to advocate certain parties or candidates without your consent to do so. Not quite the same thing, but it's still a little shady.
Noob, in a right-to-work state, companies can hire non-union labor where previously unions had exclusive access. Without exclusive access to those jobs, unions have no leverage (threat of strike) with management ... management can just ignore the union and hire non-union replacements. That's how right-to-work hurts unions.
Union job monopoly locks out anyone who doesn't tow their political line. It is communist by definition. So, yeah all you union hacks are commies...plain and simple.
Brainchild2 - your post shows a definite lack of knowledge but that makes you a good Republican!
brainchild Quick look behind you there is a rock. You better look their maybe a commie under it. Wanting to get you. If you were to say that to a hard hat in the sixties he would have kicked your a$$. I may be wrong but that same hard hat would kick your a$$ today.
Unlike all those company bosses who threatened their employees with job losses if they voted for Obama? With Romney's blessing, I might add.
All right Evel Kneivel, you probably shouldn't try to jump such huge gaps in logic.
My questions to all these inflammatory comments...Are any of you from MI?.. if not please do not strike down what one has no Idea has been happening to the state for years. We have lost a lot of people to RTW states, just because we have a Union image. That is where all the work is, none here for most in MI unless you move away outside.. So Hurray for this, at least there is something being done to save what we have left.
are you loco? what makes michigan unique? go back to bed.
Confused -
My husband is from Michigan and he has family there. I know what you mean and I say good for the state to try to get a handle on the rape of the taxpayers by the unions.
rick546746, Sorry Rick , NO correlation between money spent and achievement in public schools. In NC spending has gone up since about 1998 , but achievement in classroom ? Sorry in ain't there. What Rick won't tell you about OUR home state is all the Dems who have gone to prison. Talk about living one way and talfing another , THATS a NC dem for you. WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!!
batcave -another post that is totally incorrect. NC education totally depends on where you are in NC. Winston-Salem education is outstanding.
And, there are as many Republicans in jail as Democrats!
So long, Gov. Snyder.
xlent-don't think so. remember wisconsin? LMAO
Agreed Gentleman Jim. This independent still generally approves of Snyder. The rest of the republicans in the legislature are another matter (rigging elections, bought off by Matty Maroun, etc - there is a reason their numbers are decreasing in the new year), but right-to-work doesn't even register as an issue that I particularly care about (although, if I had a vote, I would be on the side of choice).
This is the Citizens United decision raising its ugly head once again. The money men take precedent over the voters. It is now so blatant that the loss of an election is less important than the prospect of losing the benevolence of the rich manipulators.
The politician does not have value to the manipulators unless he is first elected, with good prospects of being reelected. Take the manipulators money totally out of all aspects of the election process, and the resulting bastardization of our democracy will die on the vine.
It is hard to resist the temptation to name call and threaten. This is not a threat but a PROMISE..........What goes around comes around......don't let the door hit you in the rear on your way out in 2014 nerd. Be prepared to be blown away..........blown away rite out of office.
This proves that you cannot trust a republican no matter what they promise. They promise smaller government, but every time a republican gains the presidency government leaps far beyond its previous limit they promise fiscal responsibility, but start two unfunded wars and cut taxes at the same time. This governor promised during his campaign not to seek this type of legislation-just proves the republicans are puppets and big business pulls the strings.
Multiple studies have shown that states with 'right-to-work' laws have lower wages than states with union rights. Michigan's wrecked economy is already on the mend with all the unionized autoworkers pumping out more cars as the Big Three continue to have great years.
If you want a job where you are totally at the mercy of the guys in the front office, be my guest, but be sure to decline such things as weekends off, sick leave, health care benefits, pensions, work place safety, and other perks brought to you by union activity.
Could you possibly name even one of these 'studies'?
I have a very simple question, if unions are that great why is it that only 11% of American workers belong to one?
I have been in sales since I was 18 years old, the person that sells the most makes the most. Pretty basic, works great for both the employee as well as the employer. It seems that could also work in the manufacturing sector, if employee A produces more products than employee B should employee A make more money?
Just curious here.
Maybe we need to visit the archives to see why we needed unions to begin with. People died to secure rights for labor. We would not have the wages we have or the benefits we have without them. I would love to think employers and corporations would all do the right thing for their employees. If they did we wouldn't need any labor laws. I see right to work as a way for business to divide and conquer. Disrupt union funds and weaken bargaining power. I do not agree that a person that does not contribute should get the benefits of the contract negotiated. People need to read and understand the labor laws. Many think they are guaranteed many rights they are not...they get them because they have to compete with union shops. Is there room for improvement? Always and on both sides. My biggest concern is that as a middle class citizen I do not feel I am being represented. How many politicians are considered middle class? Is there an easy way to find out their net worth? Did it increase, decrease or remain the same. Do they listen and work for their constituents or are they building a network to increase their net worth? Did they really pass Right to Work with such speed for the workers? I find it hard to believe that's the case. Just sayin....
Union job monopoly is communist by nature. It locks out all of those who have a different political point of view. So, yes all of you union stooges are really commies. Real Americans want to be able to express their views without a heavy communist union hand crushing their voice in the workplace.
Brainchild2 - your post is, as all of your posts have been, woefully inaccurate. But go ahead and post - it appears to be all you have!
brainchild no brain
Brainless child
Ask California how broke they are in part due to public sector union contracts they can't pay now. Lets waste time negotiating contracts on tax payer time. Unions are for people who don't want to do anything for themselves.
So with right to work, workers can either choose to join the union or not. They can choose to pay the dues or not. If something is valuable to me, I will pay for it. What are the unions worried about then? If they are doing a good job protecting the workers, then all of the workers will choose to join right? Conversely, if they are not doing anything for the people, nobody will join and they lose power. Forcing someone to pay into something they don't want or value doesn't seem very "American" (freedom, liberty, equality...) to me.
Seriously??? Would you pay for a new car if one was gifted to you? No, I'm sure, with your moral turpitude, you would insist on paying because your neighbors paid for their car. Anyone not choosing to join the union, while reaping the benefits of those that are, would be nothing but a thief.
Your comparison is a non factor, if someone decides to gift something think of it as a contract between two individuals. The gifter is the one who decided to give me something for whatever reason, and does not ask for money in return, only my participation in the transaction. If both individuals agree to the terms of the transaction, then nothing is being "stolen". Explain what benefits a modern day person would be getting by choosing not to join a union?
Also, I'm an individual, why does it matter what my neighbors paid? I work in the private sector, if I'm not productive, I will get let go. Lately I have been extremely productive and even started my own product line, so I have reaped the benefits, seems fair to me. What is stealing is the person who produces nothing, has no excuse for it, and continues to whine and complain about how the boss won't give them a raise this year.
Noob, read this slowly please because I want you to understand. Maybe even have someone explain it to you after reading if you still need help.
What this law does is allow someone to reap the benefits of collective bargaining without contributing for it. Say, for example, you decided to apply and were hired at GM as an hourly worker. Then you decided you didnt want to join the union. The way the law is written, you would still be protected by all of the union negotiated benefits and if you ever got in trouble, the union has to defend you. All for free. Its getting a service without compensation. Its kind of like going to McDonalds, eating the happy meal, and then deciding it should be free and telling them you arent paying for the meal. And then McDonalds doing nothing and saying" Hey, thats ok. Thanks for stopping by."
I would have no problem at all if they would have allowed you to join GM, decline the union, set your own deal for wages and benefits, and then you are on your own. But that isnt the way this law was written. It isnt right that the union has to defend you ( whether you ever do anything wrong or not) and bargain for you without compensation. That is my problem with the way the law is written.
Bobbo -
I live in a right to work state and I worked in a shipyard that had a union. Believe me when I say that the union will not represent you if you do not belong to it - as is their right. However, they also don't represent their members very well either unless the individual is in the clique.
THAT is the reason they keep losing membership.
UAW workers are the worst slime in the world. They have destroyed the US auto industry, the City of Detroit and now they want to eat your children's lunch. Obama only likes them because they fill his coffers with cash. They only lick Obama's boots because he allowed them to rob little old ladies of their GM bond money in the takeover. GM will be broke again in 5 years.
braniac,the uaw only let part of the car and truck leave the manufacturing portion of the u.s.however it was the money people who more than likely paid off somebody to make that occurence,money may have passed hand at uaw level or at the political level up to and including everybody in washington,the workers themselves are only trying to get thru this thing called life,so i would apologize to the workers cause they only follow orders which is to try and build a safe vehicle for you and i.
Brainchild -
Analysts are saying that GM will need another 'bailout' by sometime in 2013 - much less than 5 years down the road.
Last Christmas he took away insurance from Gay people. Why? Because they're gay. Snyder's just a Republican hack that hates the people Republicans hate--brown people, black people, gay people, women, and people who "live above their station" by being able to afford a beer and cable TV at the end of their working day.
LOL I think I missed that one...
Do you mind posting a reference?
I'm incredibly confused about the anger on this page. I live in GA, a right to work state. We've attracted many new corporations & the jobs that go with them. Our economy (outside of Atlanta) is better than most parts of the country, and I believe the new businesses & their jobs are part of that.
Why is the option for employees to join or not join the unions so terrible? If non-union employees are in a worse position than union employees, they'll join. It's that easy. Taking away the freedom to make the choice (one way or the other) is the real evil here. Unions, at one time in history, were very necessary. However, they've outlived their usefulness & aren't as needed as they once were.
That pretty much sums it up.
Why do Right-Wing Corporatist always say this? You are anti-union, anti worker. Why don't you simply say it with pride... "What's good for WalMart is good for the USA"... "God bless the Koch brothers".
You do realize cb2609 that GA has one of the LOWEST average wages in the entire US right? That their minimum wage is $1.10 BELOW federal minimum wage making it so low its obsolete and illegal under Federal Law. And you think this is good? You're either rich or a total moron.
Snyder, sign the bill and end your political life, if not more.
Hey, cb2609
That's a race to the bottom. Many states lower corporate tax rates to attract businesses, losing corporate tax revenues which could have been invested in education and R&D. But corporations are so greedy, that they only care about their short-term benefits and profits.
.
Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, Taxes are what we pay for civilized societ.
When greedy corporations try to get lower and unreasonable tax rates, they try to get states to lower taxes and compete for their businesses. So when money is saved, corporate CEOs can get oversized bonuses for themselves. Then they move their own assets to foreign tax havens to avoid taxes...there is trickle-down economics.
So such corporations are not civilized.
Ourdoc, it is interesting here in GA. The average wage you claim below the the minimum federal wage but the minimum federal wage for what job? I work federal DOT jobs and there are many classifications. Our rural farm economy may be what you are reflecting and there are no union farmers here. Where are the union farmers located?
BTW, I find our non-union employees making far more per hour than any union trade in the State.
Well that's really remarkable Jeff. If the percentage of union jobs has decreased over the last 30 years and the wage disparity of workers has increased over the last 30 years, and you claim that non-union jobs pay more...how do you account for that?
Ourdoc -
You do realize that Georgia has one of the lowest cost of living indexes in the country, don't you?
Wages alone do not tell the entire story.
Well, JC1963. let's say you decide the union is a good thing, then you pay your dues and join. But your best friend, and co-worker doesn't want to pay dues. He thinks the union is good too, but doesn't see why he needs to pay them. Well, your contract is up and the union negotiates a really good deal for you. Your friend gets it, too, but you paid for it and he did not. Fair?