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Subscribe to RSSPresident Obama is expected to address right to work laws today, while speaking in Michigan. Mich. State House Democratic Leader -Elect Tim Greimel discusses lack of transparency by Gov. Rick Snyder and state legislature in run-up to right-to-work vote, how the bill will hurt unions and wages and the likelihood the bill will pass. Greimel calls the vote "slap in the face to democracy."
Updated 7:39 p.m. — Republicans stand on the cusp of delivering a major blow to organized labor, as they prepare to vote Tuesday on legislation to make Michigan – a state linked to unions in the public conscious – a “right to work” state.
Carlos Osorio / AP
About a dozen members of the Michigan Nurses Association stand on the state Capitol steps in Lansing, Mich., Monday, Dec. 10, 2012, protesting right-to-work legislation.
State lawmakers are expected to approve legislation barring rules in workplaces that make union membership a condition of employment. The offensive would mark the culmination of efforts by Midwestern Republican governors to curb labor rights in the heart of industrial America, where unions once loomed large.
President Barack Obama led Democrats on Monday in a counteroffensive, hoping to stymie Republicans in control of Michigan’s House and Senate, who could act as soon as Tuesday to approve right to work legislation after approving initial versions of the proposed law last week.
Related: Obama decries right-to-work proposal during trip to Michigan
“These so-called right to work laws, they don't have anything to do with economics. They have everything to do with politics,” Obama said in Redford, Mich., where he had planned to travel well before the labor fight erupted last week. "What they're really talking about is giving you the right to work for less money."
But Republicans maintain commanding majorities in Lansing. And Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder has said he would sign the legislation if it reached his desk. With that, he would become the latest Republican governor to be elected in 2010 in a Midwestern state to advance legislation meant to curb labor rights. A familiar battle, which played out with such intensity in other states over the last two years, has now found a new epicenter in Michigan.
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker memorably pushed legislation through his statehouse that stripped public employee unions of their collective bargaining rights; his initiative prompted a recall election, which the Republican survived in June. Ohio Gov. John Kasich’s similar effort to curb bargaining rights was only halted when voters reversed such a law through a ballot initiative.
But Michigan Republicans might now succeed in passing a right to work law, a favorite proposal of conservatives that isn’t even on the books in Wisconsin or Ohio. Snyder, who had previously said that seeking such a law wasn’t on his agenda, may now preside over one of the most striking symbolic blows to organized labor in some time.
President Obama tells an enthusiastic crowd his plan to raise taxes on the wealthy at the Daimler diesel plant in Detroit. Watch the entire speech.
“I think he's defaulting on his responsibilities,” Michigan Democratic Rep. Sander Levin told NBC News on Monday. “It's a cave to the radical right.”
Levin was among the group of lawmakers who met on Monday with Snyder to plead with him to veto the legislation, or at least delay a vote in the state legislature. Absent that, Levin said Democrats want Republicans to change their proposal to allow for voters to repeal the law through a ballot initiative, as voters did in Ohio. The Michigan law is coupled with an appropriations bill that would exempt it from a popular vote challenge.
Related: Dems launch blitz to halt 'right to work' law in Michigan
“I would have a very difficult time seeing that get changed,” said state Rep. Marty Knollenberg, the chief sponsor of the law in the state House. He contended that the appropriation provision is necessary to help implement the law.
In short, opponents of the Michigan proposal would have little recourse available to challenge the law in the immediate future, making its impact on a union-heavy state like Michigan even more pronounced.
“I think the Republican strategy in doing this so quickly is that they don’t want what Wisconsin had, dragging on for so many days,” said Bill Ballenger, the editor of the influential “Inside Michigan Politics” newsletter. “This is a blitzkrieg, and Republicans hope it’s going to be over and done with tomorrow.
While Republicans in the Michigan Capitol had long pined to advance this law, it languished until after the election. In November, the state’s voters rejected an amendment that would have added a right to collective bargaining to the Michigan state constitution. Amid rumblings that the GOP leadership would resurrect the proposal, it was brought to a vote in the state House and state Senate before organized labor and Democrats were effectively able to mobilize.
Democrats have now turned their attention toward Snyder, who had styled himself as a kind of pragmatic Republican who avoided the ideological trench warfare of his fellow partisans, in halting the law. According to congressional Democrats, during a meeting with Snyder the governor said he took their concerns “seriously,” though they’re less optimistic privately that he’ll reverse course.
Organized labor groups are organizing a “day of action” on Tuesday in Lansing, including a march to the state capitol that will likely invoke memories of the tens of thousands of activists who flooded the state house in Madison, Wis., during the height of Walker’s legislative battle in 2011.
But Knollenberg said he “can’t think of anything” that would prompt him to back off the legislation. Moreover, Knollenberg suggested it’s state Republican lawmakers – rather than Snyder – who are driving the effort.
Former Michigan Republican Governor John Engler, who is the president of the business roundtable, joins The Daily Rundown's Chuck Todd to talk about President Barack Obama's trip the Michigan, the fiscal cliff, and Michigan's 'right to work' law.
“It certainly started from the legislature, and then it was presented to the governor,” he said.
“It wasn’t on his priority list, as he indicated,” Knollenberg said of Snyder. But once Republicans had gathered adequate support for the proposal, Snyder “adapted his beliefs and saw that this was a real opportunity to put Michigan on the map in terms of creating jobs.”
And as the law’s passage seems more like a fait accompli, Snyder, if nothing else, will join the ranks of Walker and Kasich. All three will be seriously targeted by Democrats and organized labor in 2014, offering a chance for voters to render their verdict on this trio of Republican antagonists.
For their part, Democrats warn that the toxic partisanship that took hold in Wisconsin and Ohio would now spread to Michigan.
“Instead of Michigan united, it becomes Michigan divided,” Levin said. “We’ve gone from a bipartisan effort to deepening partisanship.”
Alternatively, it could enshrine Snyder – a former business executive who postured himself as “one tough nerd” during his 2010 campaign – as a darling of conservatives who wish to further put unions on the defensive.
“For the state, I think it's absolutely monumental,” said Stu Sandler, a Republican consultant in Michigan. “It's the most significant piece of legislation in decades, and sends a very strong signal about the direction the state is heading.”
Warned one senior labor official, "If this bill is signed, it's going to be Thunderdome between now and 2014."
Knollenberg argued his legislation is only about providing opportunity to the state’s workers.
“I just hope that at the end of the day … the unions will then have to sell their story as to why they’re benefiting the workers,” he said. “I believe that if they can demonstrate their value to their workers, they’ll do fine. But they’re going to have to work for it.”
Update: Not all hope was lost for supporters of organized labor, who believe they would be able to use a citizens initiative under Michigan law to eventually challenge the right-to-work law. Under such a scenario, if labor supporters could gather a higher number of signatories to a petition, they could force a vote to undo the law in 2014. However, the new right-to-work law would be allowed to take effect in the meanwhile.
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I would rather work for a company than a union. Management should be part of the team, not the enemy. Unions foster an "us vs them" mentality that leads to an unsatisfying work environment.
And I don't want membership in an organization to be a requirement to get my job, especially one that forces me to pay them dues and promotes others with less merit ahead of me just because they've been there longer.
Corporate tyranny has gone too far...some corproations have only cared about their short-term profits, having had total disregard for the nation's long term economic health. These corproations run offshore, outsource jobs, try to force many states to compete to lower taxes to get their businesses, leading to lower tax revenues. But in the end, the economic health of the entire nation is more important than particular corporations' profit margins. The federal government should come in and have uniform corporate tax rates, so that these corporations are there only to promote public good, not their selfish profits.
Good job GOP give people back the right to decide if they want to belong to a union or not, I belonged to a union for 28 years and it was a joke!!! After our 4th strike I said to hell with this and quit the union and went back to work and a lot of other people followed me they were also sick of the union.
Now, if they could just get rid of those mandatory show up for work rules.
That's a pretty amazing comment, AG99. Without unions, Management isn't "part of the team." Management is an absolute ruler. There is no team. Only with unions do workers have any place at the table at all.
The decline of the American middle class and the decline of union membership tracks pretty much in lock-step. That is not a coincidence. Without unions, or at least a credible fear that if they don't treat workers fairly their workers might unionize, corporations are at liberty to put the company profits in the owner's pockets, keep wages low, cut benefits more and more every year, loot employee pension funds and then throw up their hands and say, "We can't afford to pay these outrageous pensions!" -- basically, all the abuses that have, in fact, been occurring in ever-growing numbers as the rich get richer and the rest of us lose power.
This is a serious situation in Michigan and very bad news indeed.
when these state/local governments try to pamper corporations, everyone loses in the 'race-to-the-bottom.' Corproations lose credibility; state/local governments lose revenues; workers lose benefits, especially lose enthusiasm for their jobs, thus less productives.
DGol: We don't have unions in the military where there is a sharp divide between management and workers, and yet we're all part of the team. Officers and enlisted work together to accomplish the mission. A good company will foster this kind of teamwork. I don't want to work for a bad company just because it's been unionized.
DGol. Get real. You are what gives unions the bad rep they have today. You're not doing them any favors with such lame statements.
Owners/upper management need workers and workers need owners/upper management. Making Michigan a right to work state is IN NO WAY a problem for the unions if the unions are providing reasonable and reliable labor for reasonable wages. If the unions are reasonable in their "demands", then they have nothing to worry about.
Like Obama buddy's a GE that dose not pay a dime in taxes.
IT IS US AGAINST THEM. Companies do NOT want to pay fair wages they neverdo unless forced to by unions. ALL states should be union states right to work is vile i live in FL a right to work state and our wages are freaking pathetic. Companies are inherently corrupt and evil they need unions to balance them out.
absolutely. Some of these unions are for a grocery chain like meijers, where youre asking cashiers making minimum wage to hand over a portion of their check they'd likely just rather have.
Bottom line-- MICHIGAN voted for a rep. gov. and MICHIGAN turned down a proposal to strengthen collective bargaining. It's very nice for the few that have comfy jobs, but for the rest of the almost 9% of the state unemployed, they'd rather take companies moving to their state so they can find employment. Obama can go cry somewhere else.
That having been said, we moved from MI to TN because this is where there were jobs and neither my husband nor I have had any issues with our jobs in a right to work state (after being unemployed in MI for 3 months). The companies, BOTH are generous, offered to move us, are supportive of our need to take care of our families---without all the garbage of a union. I never regret being here and I think these protesters will, in time, heal and realize this is what everyone else wanted.
Also, you can still have a union after this. The unions just can't bully people into joining. If they're so great, they wont have a problem with people voluntarily staying in them. Unless they're not that great.....
Well this ought to bode well for Republican popularity in Michigan after this. :) I guess they will never learn and become the party that once was.
PS MIchigan was never united. It's just the majority was louder. Now, the quiet other half has finally spoken up. Sorry Levin.
I live and work in Idaho, where "right to work" really means right to fire.
Employees here have very few rights, including retribution because employers don't want medical issues influencing profits.
A second flub of English Wisconsin will likely see is the "Human Rights" arbitrator, who has sole discretion on who goes to court in a wrongful termination suit in Idaho. The position should really be called "lawsuit block and tackle" as nearly no wrongful termination suits go forward here.
Not nuts about unions, but "right to fire" laws go to an extreme.
TO: AG99 who wrote:
Don't you think you should find out what an employee "union" is before you comment on them?
Actually, I wish we had employee unions in my field. You get better pay, cadillac insurance plans, work security, etc.
The only reason why Republicans hate unions is because then the "business owner" has to provide his/her employees with better pay, cadillac insurance plans, work security, etc.
The only thing Republicans want is to repeal the minimum wage, they want to NOT have to provide their employees with anything (least of all health coverage), and want they to be able to kick their employees out the door as soon as they can find someone who will work for less money.
Ellen, your grocery store example is kinda funny, since where I used to live cashiers were union, made great money, and had good benefits. Unions have been ineffectual at times, but they raise the standard of living for all. Unions, like all institutions today, are being challenged to be more effective. I've been working many different types of jobs for 47 years and I have rarely seen bosses do the right thing on their own. They are more interested in lowering expectations (while raising their own). Unions gave us days off, child labor laws, sick days, vacation, liveable wages, benefits. If you get those, and you do not participate in the process of getting them, then you are getting something for nothing.
take away the right to vote.Typical of the unions ant the socialist democrats.When given a choice,workers refuse to join a union.So what is the union's answer?Force workers to join the union as a condition of employment.Unions are completely Anti-American
Monkey ..
I live in Utah and it's exactly the same as you know. As for the comment above that management is a "team," sorry but in RTW states, management is in it for the money and to hell with the worker.
TO: iowaretiree who wrote:
I just don't believe crap like that. First of all, the employees have to vote on whether or not they want to strike, and secondly no one is EVER forced to join any union.
And the Republicans never learn. They continue thinking that everybody should "serve" them, that they are the masters, and we should work for a bowl of rice, and be thankful. We should not look at them on the eye when they cross in front of us, and we should kneel in their presence
Psychos!!!! As it is, all of us that do not belong to a union are at the mercy of the companies where we work. They can treat us like they treated people during the industrial revolution, and we really do not have any way to fight that! We are SCREWED already. They have taken the coubntry back to SLAVERY! Except that now we all are slaves, not only certain people. You are a slave if you don't belong to the1%.
American Girl,
You are not forced to join a union but you are forced to pay dues and shouldn't that be an individual decision? Is it your contention that people are so stupid not to choose a union if it is in their interests so the government has to make the choice for them?
Never been a union guy myself, but have to ask:
What is it about Republicans and those on the right, that don't seem to mind the fact that 'fat cats' at the top of the org chart make 400 times what their 'worker-bees' do, but have a fit about a 'worker-bee' making a decent living (i.e. living the American Dream)?
What the hell is going on in this country? Why are the folks that are, and have been, the backbone of this great place 'demonized'- to use one of the words favored by the right???
TO: jerry l-1335133 who wrote:
Oh what a tickle.
Isn't that like saying "I want to buy that shirt, but I don't see why I should have to pay money for it"?
Hey, even Avon Sales Reps have some kind of administrative overhead, and by the way, if someone where able to get me better pay and benefits, I would LOVE to pay them what $12 every two weeks or some minimal "fee" like that.
Come on!
TO: rgsdca1965 who wrote:
Neither do oil companies, and they're killing the planet.
At least GE doesn't contribute to "global warming".
I watched Megyn Kelly today on Fox News and saw a report on union workers at a Chrysler Jeep plant that were found drinking beer and smoking pot on their lunch break then going back and building Jeeps. All 13 of them got fired by Chrysler, but guess what?... After a union grievance an arbitrator gave all of them their jobs back. They are now back at work, building your Jeep. If your Jeep falls apart, you now know why. Pretty friking sad.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/america-live/index.html
I worked as HR with the UAW for four years and saw unions and how they operate up close and personal.
Filing grievances to keep employees on the job that were caught high as a kite on the production floor.
Fighting to keep pay at $21 an hour for a JANITOR with no HS diploma (not a skilled job, anyone can do janitorial work).
Did you know that $21 an hour is more than most MILITARY people make and they have to put their lives on the line? And THEY have to have a HS diploma or GED to join the military.
Why SHOULD A UNION JANITOR MAKE MORE than someone who stands on the front line and expects to be possibly killed?
Unions are all about sanctioned bullying, and lining their own pockets. And most union workers have the same mentality - gimme, gimme, gimme and don't expect much in return and just try to fire me!
AG99, the military is (hopefully) not a profit-making venture, so that's a little different. Actually, a lot different. (But I'm glad to hear that our military works as team!) You are right that a good company will foster teamwork, but in the real world, such companies are rare. This is to be expected, because a company is in business to make a profit. To the thinking of most, profits are maximized when you squeeze as much out of your workers as you can get away with. And it is, indeed, the bad companies & tyrants that get unionized, or used to ... most workers will not form unions unless they are pushed to the wall, because (as the Republicans in MI just figured out & exploited) who wants to pay dues? Nobody.
STexan, "right to work" states consistently have lower wages than other states and more citizens without health insurance, dental insurance, etc. I'm sure the reasons for that are obvious, since it is unions that fight for workers' standards of living. It is, unfortunately, untrue that so-called "right to work" laws are " IN NO WAY a problem for the unions if the unions are providing reasonable and reliable labor for reasonable wages." If you truly live in Texas, you know this is true -- your state has the lowest rate of health insurance in the nation, for example, and has one of the highest poverty rates in the nation as well. I repeat: there is a direct and measurable correlation between the weakening of unions since 1980 and the impoverishment of America's middle class.
The way that "right to work" laws bust unions, in case any of you are wondering, is that they make joining a union optional, and/or paying union dues optional. For example, where I work (NOT a "right to work" state) I don't have to join the union -- but since the wages & benefits the union negotiates will apply to me whether I join or not, if I choose not to join the union I still must pay what are called "fair share" dues. Lower than union dues, but still something -- since I will be benefiting from the union's negotiations. In a "right to work" state (a euphemism if I ever heard one!), people inevitably refuse to pay union dues once the dues become optional. After all, the union has already gotten them a decent standard of living, so they feel they are paying dues for nothing. Like Iowaretiree, above, they see no benefit to belonging to the union. So people stop paying dues, the union is busted, and that's that. The union disappears.
And then everyone starts to get announcements, one after the other, from the employer ... trickle, trickle, trickle, usually ... that their health care premiums are going up, their pension is being "converted" to a 401K, their dental insurance is being downgraded or eliminated, "sick days" are being rolled into your vacation time, etc. etc.
And why do the Republicans want to do this? Because no matter how they try to dress it up, they are the party of the rich. And you & I are not invited to the party.
Why are there republicans in Michigan? Isn't everyone a member of the UAW over there?
First off, unions are voted in by the workers so majority rules. And since unions represent the workers bargaining a contract between the workers and the company, yes, those who benefit should pay the dues to the party that negotiates the contract for them. American Girl is right, you don't get something for nothing. There is nothing that Gov. Snyder is doing that is in good faith. He's playing politics and engaging in union busting, plain and simple. As we speak, protesters are gathering in Lansing to protest and they won't stop just because this Romney wanna be signs it into law.
The Republican party of the United States will not cease in these efforts to eliminate the American middle class until America is returned to the sort of sweatshop paradise for fat cats so well portrayed in the novels of Charles Dickens.
America was like that in the early 19th Century, and it will be again if American voters continue to be tricked by hot-button social issues to support bait & switch duplicitous Republican candidates for public office ... against the economic interests of your own families.
If you wish to see the continuation of corporate CEOs earning on average more than FOUR HUNDRED (400) times the average wage of workers for those corporations - earning more each day than you earn in an entire year - and if you wish to see the continuation of business management keeping your own weekly hours just below the threshold where you would be entitled to company benefits, and if you wish to continue the status quo where your take-home pay isn't even adequate for you to be able to purchase for your own families the products you produce, ... then by all means just keep blindly supporting the Republican Party as they slowly but surely march you to the poor house and transfer your dwindling wealth to their own pockets (and to their off-shore bank accounts).
You can be assured that the return of American Debtor's Prisons are just around the corner if the contemporary Republican Party is ever empowered to control our US Government. Look up the term "chattel" and "wage slavery", and see if they make you smile, or make you shudder!
The worst threat to the Republican Party of the United States is an informed electorate.
Kimbo47: Last I heard, we have an all-volunteer army.
Sorry, you are way out of your league on this topic. Unions had a place and time in this country, and served a great purpose. They are no longer needed and the liberals attacking the GOP for this are the biggest hypocrites in the world. Forcing a company to over pay for skilled or unskilled labor is part of the reason companies have left. The fact that you actually think there is such a thing as "man-made" global warming has taken away your credibility. I guess you're a big proponent of natural gas. If you are, research the art of "fracking", it will destroy our planet long before a "Al Gore" theory of man-made global warming.
Driveby: Try flipping that around. The union reps and heads are making millions and living like kings, but that's okay right? And yes, corporate heads should make, by far more than the "worker bees". I guess with your theory they should just spread the company profits evenly, so the guy who sweeps up in the afternoon makes as much as the CEO who keeps the company profitable, so they can provide jobs and benefits.
"If your Jeep falls apart, you now know why. Pretty friking sad."
If your Jeep falls apart, it's more than likely that the bean-counters and execs figured out how to use the least costly materials and proceedures to assemble the damned thing in the first place.
Also- 13 individuals can control the end product on an assembly line that size? Really?? Let's put 'em in charge of the house of representatives!
Not too sure about that, but I do know that they did their fair share of polluting the Hudson.
American,
No one is ever FORCED to join a union?? Are you serious?? Take for example the company I work for...food manufacturer... IF you want to work in the plant, you HAVE to join the union...plain and simple... And you know what...they have a $380 initiation fee, not to mention their monthly dues. And guess what?? Two years ago their "business agent" was arrested, and convicted of money laundering....
All this legislation does is allows people to have a CHOICE! You know...the ability to not be forced to pay for something... You of all people should be used to that idea in that is what you are harping about for the 47%. If the union was doing such a great job representing it's members, then wouldn't the members voluntarily remit their dues? Are you saying that the unions are afraid that if they lose that control over its membership then no one would pay? What does that say about the job the unions have done for it's rank and file? If members can't afford their dues, shouldn't the other members share the "burden"?? Isn't that what you want those evil 2%'ers to do?
All this comes down to is that the unions have to show that they provide value so that new members would be inclined to pay their obligations...nothing more, nothing less.
"The union reps and heads are making millions and living like kings,.."
Show me y' numbers.
"And yes, corporate heads should make, by far more than the "worker bees". "
On this, we agree. But 400 times as much? Really, when is 'enough enough'- never?
" I guess with your theory they should just spread the company profits evenly.."
I said THAT?
My parents and other relatives have been UAW members their whole working careers, and they were complaining about abuses like that back in 80s. They would tell us children stories of laziness, greed and harassment and then actually wondered why I have always bought Toyotas....
We DO have a volunteer military - that has NOTHING to do with my point.
My point is - someone standing on the front lines DESERVES $21 an hour.
Someone cleaning bathrooms DOESN'T.
But union people think they DO - THIS SMELLS TO HIGH HEAVEN that people actually believe they deserve some of the wages that union people get for UNSKILLED WORK.
Seriously...
People should not be FORCED to do anything they don't want for employment...including pay dues to a union. This shouldn't be a Republican or Democrat thing..It comes down to right and wrong and free will. Once we stop seeing Republican or Democrat then everything else will start falling in place.
WE NEED TO STOP VOTING AND SEEING PARTIES. America should come before ANY party!!!!
Unions are the workers' main tool in negotiations with management. Abandoning unions is basically saying to management, "we voluntarily unilaterally disarm ourselves."
Of course, with no unions, management will pay low wages, and deny benefits and pensions.
Ask yourself, would a hard-nosed management type, like Donald Trump, throw away his best bargaining leverage for no good reason?
Many in Michigan are enjoying the benefit of the high unemployment rate. The State is well-subsidized by the government in unemployment and numerous other government programs.
Michigan is one of the biggest "eating out" obese states in the US. People don't suffer and live rather well, even without the benefit of a job.
I rarely hear about corruption in unions, it sounds bad nonetheless. I however hear everyday about corruption in big corporations and CEOs taking in millions in bonuses and big bank losing billions of investment money from the people.
So, use your own judgement and pick your poison.
I also often hear that increase tax on corporation will incur tax on ourselves. When did US turn to this? Are we hostages for corporations? I thought capitalist idea is to foster competition and to prevent this.
When will we stop and say "enough is enough", we Americans are not hostages to use if something is implement to control corporations.
One striking thing about this that everybody seems to have missed is the fact that the GOP has written this so the voters of Michigan cannot ask for a referendum on it; their legislature is cramming it down everybodys throat whether you agree or not. What are they afraid of? And let's hear the GOP outrage about the taking away of voter's rights. Oh, I forgot; it's ok if it's them doing it....
The right to say no to Socialism...
The only choices liberals fear.
I worked in Washington State in a skilled construction and UNION job. I made good wages, had insurance, was given vacation days, sick time.
Now in Florida, there are NO JOBS that are NOT MINIMUM wage jobs, and they only allow PART TIME hours so they don't have to provide insurance, vacations etc.
Anyone EVER try working for 7.25 an hour? You have to have at least 3 FULL TIME jobs to afford anything. EVEN the SKILLED CONSTRUCTION JOBS IN FLORIDA pay half of what they did in Washington with Union protections.........
RIGHT TO WORK is RIGHT TO WORK FOR MIN. WAGE IN SWEAT SHOP CONDITIONS........ Don't like it? QUIT.........
People are STUPID if they think Right to Work and getting rid of Unions is better for people. THE DUMBING DOWN OF AMERICANS continue......
Slinger,
No one FORCED you to move to Florida... IF you had done research before you moved you would have understood the labor markets better and not be in the position you are today. Not saying its your fault, but different economies in different areas dictate different labor markets (and costs). There are plenty of other states that would employ skilled contruction people at well above the minimum wage...
@SabotAndHeat
You do know that at the core of Capitalist and Democracy idea, they are opposite of each others, right?
Capitalist allows most wealth and influence to be concentrate on selected fews. Just saying those few people have more power and more voting influence than the rest of us.
Additionally, more than 40% of US policies are at Socialism level in case you didn't know.
Ah, Kimbo.... more half-truths....
Yes, that janitor likely makes more money in a month than a lower-ranked military member, but what doesn't he get?
Free housing, or a housing allowance if on-base housing isn't available and it includes the family.
Fully-paid unlimited sick leave, and vacations. Whether you're on-duty or off, the money keeps rolling in.
Clothing allowance for the service member.
Free or subsidized education to better himself.
Complete, fully free medical care for the member and family.
Closed retail stores with subsidized lower prices to shop in.
Kinda changes the equation, doesn't it? The best the janitor can hope for is some sick leave/vacation time, and he might get reasonably decent health care although it may not be 'free'. All the rest comes out of his pay. Or would you rather pay him less and then subsidize him with food stamps and medicaid?
Get a little ways up the chain in the military, and wages get much closer to the 'real world' and you still get to keep all these bennies.
To American Girl
You talk about management and employees are not a team or mgt. takes advantage of employees - So given that then the union mgt. does the same - they take your monies and spend it on things that will benefit mgt. - they use your dues buying officials/congressmen, party, wine and dine them and I/we don't have a say on what our dues are used for even if its against our morals - I know this because I was involved in the grocery strikes here in Southern California a few years back and you know what our union leader's nickname is "Micky the Bat" so no we didn't rock the boat - I didn't see him loosing any money while the strike lasted - How about this - why not have the rank and file vote on having the union mgt. NOT receive any monies as long as you're on strike - you and I both know that will never happen - MI. has been under democrat's control since 1968 and now Detroit is destroyed - Good job unions
Nothing gets those connies drawers in a bigger bind than a middle class American actually making a living wage with some benefits and a safe and secure pension. I swear their neanderthal skulls are pervious to common sense or logic and this is so simple. If you are so against working at a business that has a union don't go work or apply for a job there. Someone else will step in your place in a heartbeat who wants to work for union or has no problem with it. Why is that so hard for you dimwit connies to understand???? You guys really think anybody believes the right wing stuff you are spewing about unions that most of the connies here haven't a clue about.
Why do republicans want to be the advocates of the continued destruction of the middle class??? Isn't it ironic that every one of these gop governors are members of ALEC and were bought and paid for by the likes of the koch brothers and other corporate billionaires?? Isn't it ironic they all signed their allegiance not to Americans but to grover norquist the biggest lobbyist in D.C.????. Isn't ironic that that the koch bros. despise unions, pensions and health care benifits because it take monies out of their bottomless pockets. The like of the koch's and waltons have more money that they'll ever be able to spend in the next 100 years but believe me it's not enough. It's never enough. It's a debilitating disease called greed and it's not exclusive to the republican party but it's thrives in their environment well.
Oh well, you connies have fun and keep posting your delusions, lies and fear but please don't expect rational thinking Americans to buy a lick of it. But please don't stop because this is one of the reasons your agenda was rejected overwhelmingly in the last election. And with you idiots continuing to double down on your nuttiness - there will be plenty more losses for you in 2014.....cheers!!!!!
Unions are only a fund raising arm for the democrats.
Slinger - perhaps you should go back to Washington state if it's so bad in FL. No one is forcing you to live there, right? And that goes for anyone working.
Unions are the exact reason why so many jobs left this country! When a company is in business FOR PROFIT, they have to watch the bottom line. But when this company is forced to pay a janitor $21/hour - and assembly line workers $75/hour (including benefits), the other alternatives are obviously better for profit - and their bonus checks. In my town there are two grocery chains - one union the other non-union. Pay is the SAME at both stores (only difference is the union store starts you out at a higher rate - but it's necessary since they charge a high initiation fee). The most obvious distinction between the two: The non-union store has the friendliest employees and competitive prices. This is where I prefer to shop.
I had a job many years ago where I had to join the Teamsters to work there. It was mindless work and I was making insane hourly wages - triple time on holidays (those were the best days to work, too, since none of the bosses worked a holiday!). Too many people with attitudes so I happily left there to work for less. It isn't always about the money you make. To work in an environment where everyone gets along and you don't mind getting up in the morning to go to work is better for you. I enjoy my non-union job and make a decent wage - without a college degree and only 7 more years til retirement with a pension. I'm thankful everyday for my benefits (medical and dental insurance for beginners) - and truly appreciate all they do for us.
Most of the factory jobs in this town are gone and it's no wonder. Interesting to drive past their parking lots where they all drive new gas-guzzling p/u trucks and SUV's. Then drive past the university and see what's in the faculty parking lot: Hybrids, economy cars, older vehicles and an abunbance of bicycles. See the priorities? Union workers see entitlement and always want more. But do they deserve to make comparable wages to someone with a PhD?
S-C-A-B-S.....you get what you pay for, a BIG pile of SH*T.....^LIAR^, yeah you up there!!
I am so sick and tired of democrats whining about employers. They should get off their behinds and start a company and pay what they feel is fair. Remember, all the infrastucture is there, a person just needs to plug themself into a business and start making money and hire everyone they can!
I'm all for good unions, BUT this is America and NO group should have the right to force you to be a member so you can have a job. By the same token, if you want to join a union then no company should be able to deny you that right.
As far as corrupt unions, I worked as a teacher for a number of years. The teacher's union would each year negotiate less and less for the workers. The union boss was a crook and would get kickbacks from certain people in the school system and the health ins sales rep then tell us that we must settle for whatever was offered. The big thing the union did was prevent really crappy teachers from being fired, so we'd get stuck with kids in the next grade that learned nothing.
That said, my dad worked at a union mill and the union worked with management there to keep business running smoothly, even in down times. The union kept the employees appropriately in line so the place made a profit and workers got paid very well. The union didn't tolerate slackers as the agreement with management involved profit sharing and other incentives for productivity. The company sold out to a bigger one and the union joined a larger national union and dropped the profit sharing deals at the "renegotiation" led by the larger union bosses. They didn't listen to the regular workers who had been there forever because they knew better. Soon the place ran in the red and people became lazy because they had many years in so couldn't be fired with the new contracts. The parent company moved much of the production out to places that were more efficient and many lost their jobs.
So no, I don't support requiring anyone to join a union because that means the union leadership no longer has to serve or do what is best for the worker. Why care for the little guy when you get the dues no matter what.
To all those slamming the unions, give up the benefits that the unions have won - 40 hr work week, vacations, sick pay, labor law, etc, etc. In the last century, the unions were a major force behind what we now call humane legislation like end to child labor, labor law, female suffrage, equal pay, etc, etc, etc. Go ahead, big mouths, give up these rights!!
The entire action against the unions was started in the '60s and is only because the unions supported the dems. The Republicans are trying anything that they can to break the dems, and have been trying everything they can since the '60s. Note their attempts to disenfranchise voters in the last elections. They have co-opted the so-called Christian South (otherwise known as the Dixie vote), racists, right-wing nut jobs, etc, etc. So, it is imperative that people stand up to these right wing thugs. Eisenhower, a Republican, supported the unions!!!
I live in a right to work state, and has stated by others, all it means is right to fire and right to pay the least possible wage! Coming soon to MI, WI, etc
How ironic. The rest of us have had the right to work for "less money" for years! And every year, they take away something else....and expect more.
I'm confused. Isn't the tax increase going to be yet another way to give us the "right to work for less money"?
Unions are dinosaurs, same as Progressives (Liberals~Democrats).
Both are detriments to America.
BTW Union Workers: Think the Union bosses are looking out at you ? Check their pay scale and the million dollar homes they live in then check to see where your Union Fees/Dues go besides political contributions. Suckers.
And, guess why States and Cities are going bankrupt. Thanks unions.
O'Bama and the Democrats are upset because they are beholdin' to the Brown Shirt Storm-trooper Unions. People should not have to pay someone for the Right to Work. The Unions had their day, but their days are numbered and they can't stand the heat and will resort to intimidation & violence to get their fees paid. In this day and age Unions are nothing more than Legal Organized Crime Syndicates that use strong arm tactics and threats of violence to FORCE works to pay their fees. The Democrats support their use of force & violence since the Unions are nothing more than "Muscle for Hire".
The CONCEPT of the union is essential. Unions, when ran ethically and correctly are absolutely protectors of the middle class. Hell, they built it. HOWEVER, just as management and corporate power can go too far, so too can union power.
The unions are currently their own worst enemy. Stop protecting incompetence at the expense of energetic, honest, COMPETENT workers and your support will once again sky rocket.
Get rid of first in last out. Monitor nepotism. Protect whistle blowers from management AND other members. Monitor your cultures.
Reform. Not break.
How do you like the idea that your parents made more money than you do? You parents worked in a Union. You do not. As Union membership has declined, so has everyone's income, except for the 1%. They are making way more money than before. Don't you feel so proud of yourself for giving those Billionaires your money?
United we bargain, divided we beg. Right to work for less is what management wants for you and your children.
GRAPH: As Union Membership Has Declined, Income Inequality Has Skyrocketed In The United States | ThinkProgress
AG99
Say that to the employees from "Hostess". 3 CEOS in 4-5 years? Constantly asking the UNION employees to take pay cuts but not offering to take a cut on their own salaries? Even after the collapse they are taking a HEFY "severance' Check, while an employee who was there for 27 years loses their entire 401k???Management should be part of the team, and not stick the unions because of their own greed.
Greedy Unions are no different than greedy corporations to me. Both need to re-examine their relationships with each other and America.
Yes, but that's all moot if first in, last out remains in place. In this economy, I'd be the first to get laid off anyway, regardless of my job performance. Merit based raises and retention wouldn't break the union, it would strengthen it, while also furthering the interests of management, making cooperation easier to achieve.
ldo
"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their
leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their
right to strike.” Hitler, May 2, 1933
Hmmm.. Sound familiar? Unions are NOT the cause for cities and states going bankrupt? Hmm... let's see... economic recession...= lost jobs, lost revenue for the cities/states, lost property taxes, lost school taxes, loss, loss loss from FAILED economic policies and failure of cities/states to react to their own loses.
The only dinosaur is arrogance and inability of those in the GOP to accept their failures and contributions (right along with the DEMS) for creating a mess.
Sarah ...
You seriously need to stop making sense! ;-) If people realized that unions are optional, that they don't control the entire populace and that having diversity in all things is what makes this great country strong, life would be a helluva lot easier and better. Unions have and do serve a vital purpose. They were created so that the working middle class were not "sweat shop" workers. For those that are thinking this is a money-maker for the Democrats - shame on you. Unions should be about caring for the worker. If there are some that are not, well, those workers need to deal with their union.
@jack 17 Let's check your assumptions: You say there's no longer a need for unions. You thus assert that human nature has changed in the last 80 years. Moronic.
You also seem to think that Al Gore invented human influenced global warming. Jack, you're beyond moronic, you're a waste of time.
Anyway, welcome, all in Michigan, to the race to the bottom. You'll see wages drop 20% across the board in a few short years. Now if they can only lower their minimum wage to four bucks an hour - well, they still won't be able to compete with asian wages, but at least they'll be able to free up a lot of homes.
if we could get rid of the paid holidays and vacations we would have something again
Wow, JimD, what a truly impressive string of insults! Now, is that all you do, or might you possibly have some actual substance to offer us all?
Layton,
Thanks. But I'm still creeped out by your picture. ;)
opp45646456
Right ... because those really harm the country. Let's all go back to no holidays, sweat shops, and making those that work feel so "entitled" just to have a job. Sheesh!
Sarah ... I'll change it up soon! :)
@ Pig
My dear do you even read the insance crap that you post? This is your quote "The federal government should come in and have uniform corporate tax rates, so that these corporations are there only to promote public good, not their selfish profits."
So you dont think that companies should not have goals of making profits and they should only exist to support your socialist ideas? Wow you join Sarah with the second title of One Effed Up cookie.
Whatever happened to competition and what's wrong with performance-based pay? If I'm doing a better job than the guy next to me who is doing the same type of work, why shouldn't I be eligible for a better raise than him? If my company decides to be ultra-cheap in it's wage & benefits packages compared to its competitors, the most valued employees are perfectly free to jump ship and go to work for the competitor who is not being so cheap.
If you want to join a union, go for it. But how is it right to tell someone they can't work at the company unless they join a union and give part of they paycheck to that union? And for what? So that I will get exactly the same raise as the guy working next to me, even if I'm twice as productive as him?
That's a heck of an incentive for everyone to do the absolute minimum required of the job.
"“These so-called right to work laws, they don't have anything to do with economics. They have everything to do with politics,” Obama said."
Hmm, that argument seems to cut both ways and, anyway, why isn't he back in Washington working on the big debt crisis negotiations instead of lobbying for the union that contributes millions to his campaign? Oh, now I get it, that's the politics of it.
As a 30 yr Union member, I support a person's right not to be a member. Closed shops (that's what it's called when you have to be a member to be employeed) are not fair to someone who would rather keep their dues money in their pocket. No one should be forced to join anything against their will. I think it's foolish not to join if there is a union in the shop, but it's that persons choice.
@G-Man-804405
You are so spot on. The Cons are just oozing hatred tonight over this. I can't wait to sit and watch this come back and bite them on their greedy, incredibly ignorant butts. All they can do is spout ignorant bumper sticker slogans that are almost as meaningless as the Cons.
The funniest part is how many of these cons most likely don't have a pot to piss in, which is why they would begrudge a man a living wage. They want everybody to be the same kind of failures as they are.
Thanks but no thanks.
I think a lot of people on here are misinformed about unions. My ex-husband belonged to one because he worked in a grocery store. The owner of the large grocery chain made CONSTANT threats that he would take away benefits, pay, vacation pay etc. because he wasn't making enough to pay for his 3 mansions in CA alone and to pay alimony to his 3 ex wives. I'm sorry, i don't feel bad for him. The union was the only people that fought for us. Granted they have their own agenda and probably make too much money, they did help us in our time of need. You see the corporations rape the worker period if they can. Profits are what they care about they can give two @!$%#s about the people. You see they are self-absorbed pigs on average. I am sad that we need unions to keep corporations honest. Look at any job that has a union, the pay on average is higher as is the benefits. Look at an industry with no unions: lets say sales representatives. The pay is extremely low (if not commissioned and alot aren't anymore) and hardly ever benefits. Why do we need someone to be the middle man so that the corporations pay a decent wage? that is what we should be asking ourselves. Having said that, wherever money is, corruption will be and the union isn't immune. to the person who said cashiers at grocery stores make minimum, this is simply incorrect at least in CA because of the union. They always make at least 50 cents to a dollar more to start. If corporations had their way people, we ALL would be minimum wage sadly because of their elitists mindset and their greed. They will pay in the afterlife and come back as the cockroaches they are. Also, those complaining you MUST pay for the union, well you seriously think you can reap the benefits and not pay like everyone else? hmmm.
It's how I'm signing my completely secular, winter post cards this year. Teaching, you'd love them. I'm wearing an Ushanka and holding a Kalashnikov, in the picture.
First, they'll get rid of the unions, then min wage, 40 hour work week, paid holidays and then those pesky safety at work laws.
I was at the protest in Lansing on Thursday.
The RTW people emerged from the Anderson office building laughing, smiling and taunting the Union protesters. Then they lit up celabratory cigars and blew the smoke around. They were trying their best to precipitate a physical conflict.
These people have now permanently crippled Unions in Michigan. Our state's per-capita income has already sunk from something like 11th to 34th in just 10 years with the advent of NAFTA. Never saw such a smug bunch of corporate pigs in cashmere jackets. What were they lingering around for? What were they trying to prove? Wasn't it enough that they just killed the Middle class? Did they have to stand astride our corpse and laugh out loud while we bled into the dirt?
I'd love to say there will be retaliation, but there is nothing I can do to them. They're term limited. Out of reach. Hell of it is they put provisions in the law that state you cannot publish a list of the freeloaders. What was the purpose of that? By law Unions are forced to defend the people even though they are freeloaders. If someone told you that you could get something for free would YOU take it? Of course you would.
The Repubs locked us out of the Capitol building, and they also filled the viewing gallery of the legislative chambers with their relatives so that no Union members could get in to protest the carnage going on.
Repubs are excrement, and I will consecrate the rest of my life to their destruction.
The republicans are like a pack of mangy Hyenas, they will attack anything, especially as scavengers.
These people, republicans, state governments, and businesses only want one thing, to fatten the bottom line of their 1%ers. RTW without unions only mean those companies will fire anyone, hire only part-timers, and pay you the smallest wage possible.
On 6% of voters in Michigan want RTW laws, but somehow republican lawmakers there are pandering to big business instead of their constituents.
For those of you who support unions, here is what you are supporting:
Extortion - Unions routinely threaten businesses, basically saying "Hire union workers to build your building, OR ELSE". If you ever see some people standing outside a business, with a sign that says "Shame on (Company name)", that is the union's doing. They attempt to use intimidation tactics to FORCE businesses to hire union workers, rather than win on the merits of their workers' capabilities and skills. Totally pathetic.
Corruption - Everybody whines about big businesses buying political clout, and yet the unions do it too, spending MILLIONS of dollars a year in campaign contributions, the vast majority of it going to the Democrat party, even though the unions are almost a 50/50 split between Dems and Repubs. Too bad the rank and file of the unions have ZERO say in how their dues are spent. You still think the union bosses give a damn about their members??? HAHAHAHAHAH!!! Fools.
Blackmail - Unions routinely threaten businesses with strikes if they don't get their way. They routinely demand wages that are far in advance of the level of work done. They demand benefits that ultimately bankrupt companies. Tell me again exactly why a business should pay for your retirement for years on end after you leave the company?? Oh, that's right...because you think you're entitled to get paid for work you haven't done. What a joke.
If I ever owned a business, no union would EVER be allowed in, and should the workers or the government try and force the issue...I'd fire every worker and burn the place to the ground first. See how far their demands get them then.
Get this through your thick, fat heads you union supporters. The reason YOU have a job is because some entrepreneur went into business and busted their backside in order to make it work. YOU have a job because somebody had the brains, the determination and the "don't quit" attitude to build that business into a success. They didn't get their business through whining about what they were "entitled to". Unlike the unions.
Go beg a poor person, a politician or a union boss for a job and see how far you get.
"Politics didn't lead me to working folks; working folks led me to politics." ~Senator Barack Obama
The end to Child Labor, the 40 hour Work Week, our Weekends, Healthcare and Vacations where all brought to America by UNION Labor regardless of the Mega Corporate Propaganda & Disinformation says!
Recall Rick Snyder and just say NO to Scab Labor Politicians and and all of these DemoRepublo-Bureauc-RATS controlled by Wall Street now infecting Lansing MI and Washington DC
If people receive "Union" benefits why should they be allowed "Not" to join the Union? Isn't that more than a little "Hypocritical"? So I'll tell all of you Non Union SCAB Supporter how about you start working 7 days a week, 14 hours a day for far less than minimum wage without healthcare or recourse and then you can "Complain About The Unions"!
Until then you are nothing but Lazy Whining Corporate "Hypocrites" sponging off of better Men & Women's Hard Work and Their Own Personal Risk and Injuries!
http://money.howstuffworks.com/labor-scab.htm
If you hire an Employee at a wage that is SOooo low they have to "Beg for Tax Payers Assistance" while you receive Millions of Dollars in Bonuses like Hostess & Walmart and these other "Right To Work" Companies, then you have Committed Fraud....Period!
Pushed Over the Fiscal Cliff by Wal-Mart....Wal-Mart needs an underclass of workers who are financially......http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/pushed-over-the-fiscal-cl_b_2150767.html
Let alone if you are guilty of violating "American Labor Laws" and / or Bribing American Officials to "Look the Other Way" while you break Our LAW!
"If any man tells you he loves America, yet hates labor, he is a liar. If any man tells you he trusts America, yet fears labor, he is a fool. All that harms labor is treason to America."~Abraham Lincoln
Bereft of Wisdom:
You haven't seen the anti-Union measures taken by companies like Chrysler. Their people in "Labor Relations" are trained in Union-busting method.
All of the "information" you cite is myth and right wing fable. I think you have been watching too many Joe Pesci/Robert DeNiro movies.
Since joining he UAW in 1999, my pay and benefits have only soared.
I hope you end up with a boss just like you.
^^ LOL!!!!!!!! Romney, is that you?
You mean like during slavery time....just work, work, work, no wages, just a little food and water, if you got too sick, just put you someplace to die? Sounds like you like that kind of business, would your's be like that?
Actually there is an obscure faction of the UAW calling for a general strike,...........There is a provision in the UAW's Constitution for it.
Imagine that. Every auto plant in Michigan shut down over night.
MUW,
I work harder on any given week than any union worker ever dreamed of, so take your bs somewhere else. And unlike the lazy union workers, I earned every penny of my paycheck without having to give some of it to some union boss who sits around with his thumb up his butt all day and does nothing to earn it.
Unions are bunch of thugs and I know they are because I've dealt with them. So take your insults and your unions and shove them both where the sun doesn't shine cupcake.
My benefits have nothing to do with unions either.
Keep sucking on that union tit though. Must be some awfully good koolaid they got.
@ American Girl
The issue to me is Free Trade. Companies ultimately cannot pay good wages, cadilac benefits and provide a living wage while simultaneously being forced to compete against copycat products from foreign countries that have a low standard of living. When those companies are forced to compete against low labor wages, no benefits and low standard of living the workers benefits simply are lowered.
But like economies are different. No one has ever complained about those darned Canadian's taking our jobs.
Is this the opinion of MSNBC or the American working people? As a hardworking American, I view it as a victory for businesses and employee's, not a blow to labor. There's no longer a price to be paid when you're hired by a company and a business in Michigan.
to wizard of wisdom (ironic), get this through YOUR fat head: Most CEO's were born into a secret society because they were born rich. Do you understand what im saying? probably not. Money breeds money. Just to let you know while your on here bashing your brothers and sisters, CEO's still think you are filth like the rest of us because your not the 1 pecent that owns 40percent of this country. You honestly think Every or even close to the majority of Ceo's just worked hard to get where they are? laughable. Do you know some colleges don't even except people without a reputable family name. COLLEGES! what? I don't expect you or people like you to learn as you are way too narrowminded. Do you have a trade job at all? If so your a cockroach to them. Small buisness? Not smart enough to make it an enterprise they would say. Teacher lawyer civil servant? You weren't resourceful enough to make billions. Were you born into the middle-class? you and your family wouldn't even be allowed to go out to dinner with a CEO but keep sticking up for them. that makes a lot of sense.
GOPExtinct,
And I hope you actually grow a brain someday.
You see genius, unlike you, I've dealt with the bad side of the unions and have seen their intimidation tactics firsthand. So kindly shut your piehole and go back to sucking on the union tit like a good little boy.
I wish I had a boss that was just like me. They would be fair, demand the best out of their workers, deliver the highest quality products at the best prices they could offer...and they would never, EVER bow down to the union thugs and their demands.
Your unions are a freakin joke pal.
ashp,
Hahahah born into a "secret society" huh? Let me guess, you think 9/11 was a government conspiracy too huh? C'mon admit it.
Try growing a brain someday.
And by the way, you and the rest of the people of the world are NOT "my brothers and sisters", so spare me the phony "us vs. them" bs ok? It's wasted on me. I don't know you, could care less about you...and based on your comments, have nothing but contempt for you.
You condemn all CEOs even though there are many who work hard, pay their workers well and do their best to run their companies well...but that doesn't matter to an intellectual reject like yourself.
Go back to bitching about the people who give you a job. Its the typical loser mentality that I expect from the whiners like you.
Ever bought anything at walmart? How much of their merchandise is union made? Yet that is what you support when you enter the store.
If the people making products are not able to purchase said products then who are the rich going to sell them to? Could this be why America became so great?
The first thing businesses do is consolidate to get more bargainingpower over the consumer (eliminate competition). So why don't workers have the same right? No unions equals sweat shops and child labor, just like in China. Apple offers additional suvivors benifits if workers suicide off company property. I wonder if they will offer that wonderful benefit here in America soon.
so the gop found another way to take from the working class and give it to the rich
also to wizzard: Corporations have the right to hire any workers, unionized or not, to build their buildings. True, BUT all citizens have the right to protest anything they deem irresponsible or unfair. I like my rights.. do you? I will and have protested for causes as it is not only a right, but a duty as outlined in the constitution you republican douches love to stick up for. Maybe the corporation didn't want to pay a decent living wage or benefits and thats why they chose something not in a union... i think that is saying far more about the corporation than the protesters don't you? hmmm interesting. So greed now is more moral than equality and fairness... i see.
cdahl: I wondered when someone was going to bring that up. Unions can't compete with China.
Michigan is a republican state, you need to live out side Wayne county and the other failing city like Flint and Saginaw. Unions did not build the middle class, hard working individuals did. The unions mostly have over paid unskilled workers. The unions built a false middle class that can not find work outside of what they do and the area they live in. As an automotive technician I made a great income in a right to work state of northern Virginia than in Michigan a union state. The UAW workers had better benefits and made more money than the auto technicians that repaired the vehicles. We are skilled in repairing vehicles, that now requires a college degree. The UAW worker is over paid and under work. They work there 40 hours a week and go home. They do not think of work during or after they get done with there shift. They have not invested any of there own money to start the business that hire them to work. So what gives them the right to say how much an executive makes when they are always working. There job does not end after 8 hours. It is a 24 hour a day ,7 day week job, that never stops. I want the companies to make a great profit. We all have stock holding in most of these companies, through are IRA's 401k's or pension founds. When the company shows a great profit it drives the price of the stock up and we make more money in our retirement funds. The more money the company makes, wages also go up. More people are hired and there is larger tax base.
When the recession hit, union workers were being laid off and started to lose there homes. The unions did nothing about it. They did contribute to the democrats party 40 million dollars to get Democrats elected into office. Wow 40 million dollars that's allot of union dues that could have been used to help the union workers from loosing there homes.
The right to work is right for Michigan for more companies to open up business in Michigan with out the fear of having to deal with unions that are uncooperative and will not work together with any company. Prime example is the Host a company run out of business by the unions.
I say to the union workers give the right to work a chance, do not let the union bosses lies make you think that it is bad thing for you and your family. There will be a better future for you and your children. Your children will not have to move out of state to find a job that they went to college for. It will be right here in Michigan.
kimbo,
with your argument that a soldier makes less than a janitor at $21/hr is perplexing. instead of asking for soldiers to get a pay increase you just think everyone should lower their wages? why doesnt a soldier make more than most professions, thats my question, they are the ones that are brave enough to fight on our behalf and for our interests. same goes for teachers, police and firefighters. those people risk their lives everyday for us (maybe not teachers, but they do a hell of alot), yet you complain that because they are paid poorly rather than increasing their pay we should just lower everyone elses pay except for the top 1% of americans?
your arguement is a poor one
Nonsense ..... The Wizard of Wisdom..... My benefits have nothing to do with unions either.
You would not have ANY benefits if it was not for the UNIONS, what you would have is the same thing people in the 1890's has.....7 days x 14 hr =98 hour work weeks, get sick lose your job, get killed just too bad, working next to 10 year old children who would still be salves to the Robber Barons and Oligarchs on Wall Street!
Again your kind are nothing but Lazy Whining Corporate "Hypocrites" sponging off of better Men & Women's Hard Work and Their Own Personal Risk and Injuries to bring about Worker Rights!
The same "Workers Rights" that the Mega Corporate Propagandists in the MEdia have torn to pieces over that last 50 years all the while they make Billions in Bailouts & Bonuses to Bribe & Corrupt Our Politicians with.
"Silence never won rights. They are not handed down from above; they are forced by pressures from below."~Roger Baldwin
uh never answered my question though did you?! You are from a working class wizzard am i correct? Secret society is just another word for networking im sorry you didn't understand for the language. Remember the old saying: Its all about who you know? Im guessing from your posts too that you are pretty old too. Am i right?
ASHP,
Corporations maximize profits, and most know that a happy employee is a productive employee. The issue to me is being forced to compete against countries like China making similar products. One of (2) things happen when a tariff against cheap manufacturing countries is legislated.
If not:
Free trade is never free. It hurts the middle class.
ashp,
Oh, I see. So it's ok for the unions to threaten a business simply because the business chooses to hire non-union labor??
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Go back to playing in traffic and leave the thinking to people who are wiser than you are.
And by the way, I'm not a Republican...so your " you republican douches" comment only makes you look even dumber than before. Nice job.
And no, I'm not old. Just a lot smarter than people like you. And no, I didn't come from a middle class family. I watched my father and my stepfather both bust their asses to get where they are now. They are successful now, but they didn't have any so-called "network" helping them out. They earned what they have through hard work, intelligence and determination. THAT is how you make it in this country.
MUW,
I work far harder than a mouthy little prick like you EVER will, so calling me lazy is as amusing as it is absurd.
Go back to sucking on that union tit though little man. It's obviously all YOU know how to do.
You loyal union workers should take a long hard look at what the thugs that run the unions make while you poor bastards are on strike. And, what is wrong with PEOPLE HAVING A CHOICE about joining a union?????
For some "undexplained reason" my post of my personal experience with a union has gone missing from these forums. I cannot imagine why... But either way here it is again
in 1985 as a high school graduate i took a job as a janitor to make money for college. The minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. The union mobsters came to my teenage self and said that i had to join the union and that the dues were $40 a week which if you can do simple math comes to $1.00 an hour out of $3.35 an hour (1 third my paycheck). When i refused they said i would change my mind and when i went to my car after work my first day all 4 tires were slashed and a note taped to my windshield that said to "respect the union".
All union thugs are prison thugs without the prisons and union people are those who cant compete in a real workplace. Simple. Wonder how soon till this somehow isnt here on the boards...
well you sure are no democrat sir. I don't play in traffic i have no idea what that means. you still haven't answered my questions because i am right. Its ok i know i hit it on the head. also i can bash the corporations because i am a teacher and have a very strong union and work for the govt. Thanks though. Sure let them threat all they want. If there is no real danger who cares what the unions say. If the company is by the books nothing to be concerned about right? And let the people decide whether or not they will give buisness to the corporation that refuses to hire unionized workers. the constitution says we the people. we decide what goes down. that is why they are protesting, to let the people know so that they can make the choice. No consumers no money. That is why i don't shop at wallmart. Like i said, you are just a bitter old man who never became satisfied with your own life. you secretly envy the rich and follow them around with your eyes all a sparkle like a little doggy going to be fed a bone.
Where are all you gun nuts now? I've seen you all talk big behind your keyboard sitting on your fat arses about needing guns to protect take over by terrorists. Well, here it is. This is what you bought your guns for. Terrorists are holding Americans in Michigan hostage let's see if you take action in protecting your country or you urinate in your pants and watch from afar.
Protect Americans and the American way of life. Insist that the government round up and put Republicans in internment camps.
Once again The Wizard of Wisdom why should non-union labor get the benefits and protections of Union Labor and not have to pay anything for it?
Just so Management can steal another point or two in profits for their Bonuses? America agree to allow these non union experiments to occur because "The Profits Would Trickle Down To US"....Well something has "Trickled Down" on US but it wasn't "Profits"!
Just say NO to more Corporate Welfare and the Destruction of America's Economy at the hands of Wall Street....Enforce the Labor Laws and Re-Instate the Labor Tariffs! Put an end to NAFTA GATHA ZAFTHA or any other Pro Corporate Nonsense put out for "Our" Benefit!
Recall Tricky Rick Snyder and any other Politician crazy enough to vote for this Legal Atrocity and let US re-learn how to "Take It To The Streets like Our Grand Parents Once Did!
"People at Bear Stearns get tens of millions for doing a terrible job at manipulating financial markets. And people get minimum wage for taking care of our grandparents."~Barry Bluestone
Psst The Wizard of Wisdom mouthy little prick like you EVER will...You are just a "we" bit presumptuous & assuming aren't you?
BTW I never said you personally where Lazy and you posted against my post Remember? Also I'd look into the News Vines COH before I said anything else......
cdahl you are absolutely correct. That is why i think the govt should heavily, heavily tax the @!$%# out of companies that send their work overseas. Im talking 50% or more. We will then take the money and hire more govt workers instead of constantly laying people off. we need to post office, dmv workers, teachers etc still right? We can fund projects that will get people back to work in trades that really matter. Somewhat like cal-trans is doing in CA. If we make enough we might even be able to pay off the deficit if the companies still decide to go overseas. If they decide to stay, they will conform and pay a living wage with benefits.
Also if the CEO's or owners decide they don't want to play nice and want to flex their power by moving to another country and manage from a far like one of the CEO's of facebook did a year ago, screw him, revoke citizenship to this fine country and tell him we never want him back. Small buisnesses can provide the bulk of what we all need day to day. If we all were working (unlike now) we could all afford to pay a little more for products since they aren't streamlined like a corporation would have it be. There are so many people that would love to start their own buisness and would jump at the opportunity to be an an even playing level. They simply cannot compete with wallmart. Wallmart CEO's and boardmembers make billions yearly and still pay their workers nothing. in fact they give each new hire a welcome package that includes who to call to get food stamps. Please explain to me how anyone working a 40hour week would make so little that they can't feed themselves? Seriously? but yet people still support this company. I refuse to shop there for this reason.
MUW,
Trying to claim that modern "benefits" are due to Union Labor now is absurd.
That's like trying to claim that you're entitled to something because your granddaddy did something once upon a time. Try coming up with a logical argument sometime
By the way, I don't agree with corporate welfare anymore than I agree with unions. I'm not a fan of either one. A company should sink or swim on its own merits and nothing more. Workers should be paid an AGREED UPON wage and be responsible for their own healthcare and their own retirement. It is not the company's responsibility to take care of you.
Period.
YOU are responsible for your retirement and your health. No one else is. I realize that concept is offensive to many people...but then I have little respect for the intelligence of most people. They would rather believe they are entitled to something than actually take responsibility for themselves and hold themselves accountable for their own lives.
It might also interest you to know that I do not agree with massive CEO salaries that are based on nothing but their position. Nor do I believe they should be receiving enormous bonuses while the company is losing money left and right. That is irrational any way you look at it.
However, it is also irrational for a union to make demands on a company that a company has no legitimate responsibility for...like retirement and health care. If I hire you to do a job and offer you a wage that you agree to...why is it suddenly MY responsibility to take care of YOU?? I'm paying you for your work, have no other input into your life outside of your job...so why am I saddled with taking care of you??
It's absurd. Which is why I detest unions. Yes, once upon a time they helped defend the working man from horrible working conditions...but now they are little better than gangs of intimidators who make demands that they have not earned.
ashp,
You obviously need to learn to read sometime. I answered your questions...and the only nail you hit on the head was your own head. Do try to actually READ what someone posts in reply to you sometime.
By the way, if the government taxed the "$@%" out of companies that move overseas like you suggest...what exactly is going to keep them here after that? Oh, that's right. Nothing. They will close their doors here and move ALL of their operations overseas.
Try thinking with something besides your phony moral outrage ok?
ashp .....Agreed. We need to return to enforcing the Labor and Tariff Laws in America, if Wall Street wants to move off shore let them, but they'd better hope the Chinese can afford their products because they should have no further access to American Markets.
Also I hope these Wall Street Oligarchs enjoy the Chinese Governments form of Corruption Punishments for Chop Chop off goes their head and then China can recycle their Organs too!
"We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few; but we can't have both."~ Louis Brandeis Supreme Court Justice
PS The Wizard of Wisdom I refuse to discuss any issue with someone who's only resort to criticism is mouthy little prick like you.....
no you didn't answer the question of what you do old man. and since you aren't old, i feel sad for you that you have such an "old soul" and not in a good way. I doubt you are my age. I also doubt that your family started from nothing. Its weird that you haven't responded to what you do. Ashamed because you didn't make it as good as your family? They worked so hard right? You say nothing of yourself.
are you serious? what in america do we have? well apparently we have income enough for luxuries other countries can only dream of. We have a country with one of the largest consumer bases in the whole entire world! what do you mean why stay in america? wtf are you talking about? why do they stay here now then? Because people here want their products. For a smart person, you seem to lack basic economic interpretation skills. You make products people will buy duh and then go to where they will buy them! where are they going to go india where the average person is impoverished and try to sell their goods that no one needs to survive there? Ludicrous! Japan maybe but that is a smaller amount of consumers and most don't live the excessive lifestyles americans do.
ashp,
To be honest, I didn't see you ask me what I did for a living.
I work for a company that puts on competitions for kids. I routinely work 50-60 hours a week, often times closer to 70-80, and handle a great deal of our technical and logistics work. I am not even remotely ashamed of what I do and am proud of the fact that I earn every dollar I make and I don't owe a union anything.
I could also care less as to what you doubt. I know where I came from and what my family started out with, so your pathetic attempts at playing amateur psychologist are little short of a joke.
Try actually acting like an adult instead of a child will you? You're starting to bore me.
*sigh* And it is also obviously apparent that you understand nothing of taxation and economics. If a company MAKES things overseas (like auto parts for example) as part of their business, if you start taxing them at a much higher rate, they will move all of their manufacturing overseas. That does not stop them from SELLING here through other distributors or stores. They will simply sell to other businesses and avoid the high taxes...while laying off all their US work force.
Understand?
Unions may have had their place but very often they are an impediment to competition and success. I have seen this in the public schools where young, talented people are laid off before less effective, more senior staff. I have also seen in healthcare where unions have pretty much forced their way into an organization. The union lost an initial vote overwhelmingly. I heard of intimidation by the union yet the union filed a grievance with the Dept of Labor and won a second vote. On more than one occasion thousands of union members were bussed in and converged on a small community hospital. They won by a narrow margin the second time. The union benefitted by increasing membership size and collecting more dues without improvements in pay/benefits. Also, everyone gets the same raises no matter how hardworking or efficient an employee is. Where is the incentive?
It is logical to assume that corporations that want to be successful need to have good employees. Companies that want to retain these employees usually pay well, provide good benefits and treat the employees well. In a good economy there is competition for workers and you can't just go around abusing or firing all your employees despite what previous, pro-union posters seem to believe. Furthermore, ompanies should have the ability to get rid of those workers who have a poor attitude or those who do not perform.
good i thought so. that was my point. you are a worker bee. Nothing to the elite. Remember that was what i was trying to get at... Again you missed my point. You stick up for the elite who have a hate for the common. even your family was common if they didn't make billions a year. If they did, well you are an elitist that lost your way. Also maybe you shouldn't decide what happens to people in unions since you aren't in one don't you think? do you pay into a union? You said no soo....anyways my part of this conversation is done.
By the way MUW, I do agree with bringing back tariffs. Getting rid of them was thoroughly detrimental to our major industries. That was part of what started driving American companies overseas. How could they compete with nations like China, who paid their workers a tenth of what we did and could sell their products far cheaper than we could?
Tariffs did help keep the playing field a lot more level back in the day. I don't think tariffs should be prohibitively high. That doesn't make a lot of sense either. They should be high enough to make prices comparable though. The idea being that if the prices are comparable, then consumers will buy based on quality and then its up to American businesses to be better than their competitors...and that's a good thing.
Union Labor Made America Number 1 and the Wall Street Corruption of our Government for Corporate Profit is what has changed!
China's economy will be No. 1 in less than 20 years, US study says...http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economywatch/chinas-economy-will-be-no-1-less-20-years-us-1C7511557
Say what you will it is still not too late but We Must Stop Supporting this kind of Genocide of the American Middle class! Demand a return to the Laws we know works. Let US demand the repeal of all Trade and Anti-Union Laws passed since 1980 and the beginning of this Wall Street Driven "Trickle Down Economy"!
Help Bailout Main Street not Wall Street....Demand the Recall of Tricky Rick Snyder and all of his Cabal of GOP Politicians! Right To Work is UN American and Pro Corproations!
"Let every nation know that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe in order to ensure the survival and success of liberty."
"The labor movement is people. Our unions have brought millions of men and women together, made them members one of another, and given them common tools for common goals. Their goals are goals for all America - and their enemies are the enemies for progress. The two cannot be separated." ~John F. Kennedy
When unions had their heyday, a high school diploma was the equivalent of a college education. If you compare the tests to graduate from high school, or even 8th grade in the 1930's, to what is required to graduate from high school today, the disparity is very large. Many who are now educating the labor force would have difficulty with these tests. So what the unions want people to believe today is they are on a whole as mentally competent as the people who first started unions. They aren't. Nor are the health and safety issues the same. It was science which identified health and safety issues, not unions. Did unions invent dust masks and safety glasses?
Unions begin to fail as the size of the workforce diminishes. So they favor large sized work forces such as public employees, or auto manufacturing. But the regional economic health often demands small scale and diversified skill levels. Why should a small group of people pay union dues when they won't be represented. BS you say. A small group is better situated to monitor the competency of the whole than a large group is. And since a small group is more prone to be subject to fragmentation than a large group is, loosing a few key labor skills can have adverse affects on the company. Thus the company's interest in treating and compensating employees fairly. whereas in a large group of employees laziness and incompetence is more common, and can grow to be the norm. If a large company fails, someone's competence must be brought into question. What if that someone, is many lazy incompetent ones?
So the questions to ask are: What job do I do at what wage? Of that wage what goes to union dues, what goes to personal property taxes, what goes to regional sales taxes, what goes to mandated insurance, what goes to retirement and pension, and what goes to federal tax obligation? What's left over goes to food, shelter, the basic trivia of life. etc. There are answers to where your union dues go, your property taxes, your sales taxes, your insurance premiums, and what you pay into your retirement and pensions, etc. if you search them out. This is why the individual worker should have a say, and the right to work allows a choice. A good choice? Another question, another answer. Many might have to choose between two bad choices.
"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.” Hitler, May 2, 1933
Sounds more like this Administration's agenda AGAINST MIDDLE CLASS AMERICA.
ashp,
*sigh* You really need to learn how to judge people based on logic and not your emotionally driven viewpoint. You call rich people the "elite", as if they are all one group and they all hate the "common man"...which is about as absurd an opinion as you can have, but whatever.
Yeah, I'm a worker bee and proud of it. I WORK for what I earn and I earn every penny of it. I don't demand a wage that is higher than I think my position is worth and I earn every raise I've received. I don't need a union to do that and am better off because I DON'T work for a union.
I don't envy the "elite". Why should I? I don't want their money. I'd rather earn my own...which is exactly what I'm doing. You see, unlike you and all the people who think the unions are so great...I'm not interested in earning something that I don't deserve. I don't believe business owes me anything beyond a paycheck for the work I do to earn it.
THAT is why I detest unions.
And I never said anything about deciding what happens to people in unions. I said if I owned a business, I would never allow one in the door. That would be MY right as a business owner. If people want to work for a union, it's a free country and they can do whatever they want. Just don't expect me to have any respect for the unions and the despicable things that they do.
"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level - I mean the wages of decent living."
"True individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made." ~Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Better said than I ever could!
Stand Up To And Demand The Recall Of Tricky Rick Snyder and all of his Wall Street Sponsored & Corrupted GOP / DNC Anti Labor Supporters in Michigan and in Washington DC!
Stand Up like our American Fore Fathers & Mothers and take Our Country back from these Corrupt Oligarchs & Robber Barons of Wall Street!
"Courage is more exhilarating than fear, and in the long run it is easier."~ Eleanor Roosevelt
So you're including all those "useless" police, firefighters, EMS union workers too? You have your personal force to take care of all those needs should you need them?
Personally I believe those I listed above are worth their weight in gold when they go to work, seems you don't have the same opinion.
Have you ever served this great country of ours in any Military capacity?
MUW,
What exactly is a "living wage"? Define that please. What constitutes "decent living"?
The so-called "poor" in this country have a higher standard of living than the poor of almost any other nation on the planet. They would be considered "rich" in most third world countries. So what exactly is a "decent living" and how exactly are companies supposed to pay them for EVERYONE??
As for "economic security", there IS no such thing except for the very wealthy...and not even for them if they get a case of the stupids. Look at Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson. Had MILLIONS and both wound up massively in debt. Not to mention the fact that economic "security" is not a right, nor should it ever be one. If people want economic security, let them go out and earn it...not demand it as if they have an automatic right to it.
Quote FDR all you want, but sound bytes don't answer real world questions. Never have and never will.
moshuluu,
Yes, I've served in the military. While I have plenty of respect for law enforcement officers (I was one in the military), firefighters and EMS personnel...I DO work physically harder than they do. I move thousands of pounds of equipment everyday and work 15-18 hours a day several days a week for over half the year.
I'm well aware of how important those people are...but the simple fact of the matter is that I do work harder than they do. How important my job is in the grand scheme of things isn't the subject of discussion.
By the way, my initial comment that you quoted was a response to being called a "lazy corporate hypocrite" by someone else.
Try actually following the whole thread next time huh?
If unions want to run the company so damn bad, why don't they start their own companies and compete?
Think about it. They have the labor, they have the money, they have the desire to run the company, so why doesn't the UAW just start its own damn car company?
Wizard, so you are saying that we should compare ourselves to "Third World" countries?
Further, why are you only working 18 hours a day are you too lazy to work the remaining 6? Give me a break.
We are Americans and we should expect Americans to look out for each other. This is not the case with today's Republicans. That party can now be simply defined as "The Party that loves America (the idea), but hates Americans (the reality)." We are a country, not just a bunch of individuals scrounging for survival in some kind of post apocalyptic world. It's time these right wingers start getting called what they really are - anti-American!
The Wizard of Wisdom
Living wage...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage
So if I brought in some Foreign Workers who would do your job for far less than $7.25 and then told you I was cutting your wages to match that would be OK with you?
And if you wanted to say "Take this Job and Shove it" and I told you I was going to "Black list"you from ever working for another Corporation Production or Facility again and that would be OK with you?
How long have you been working? You have never seen this kind of Predatory acts before? Your problem with Unions is You Are Not A Member, and you compete against those who are!
Pony up and Join the Union, Stand Up For Yourself and The American Worker, Not Against Them and US!
BTW everything you learned negative about a Union came from a SOUND BITE of Propaganda or Disinformation out of a Corporation or Wall Street Controlled Media Outlet!
Enough said...Now decide who you are and what you truly stand for!
"If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men and women have a right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the right of men and women to capitalize their labor."~Frank Lloyd Wright
Is forcing people to join a union fair?
I live in a "right to work" state. Companies here do not hire workers. They go thru temp agencies for their supply of manpower to avoid paying anything resembling benefits. No vacation time... no insurance. To add insult to injury, they demand mandatory overtime. 10 hour shifts 7 days a week. If you take a day off, you are gone. Oh well, it doesn't matter because they have no intention of hiring you, anyway. When you and the group you trained with find yourselves with notification of end of assignment, they bring in the next group of foolish hopefulls who will receive no benefits and no guarantee that any enthusiasm or dedication they bring with them to the job will be rewarded with anything more than disdain.
No...unions are not perfect. Any organization run by human beings tends to be flawed. But we are quickly returning to a system where workers have no rights whatsoever. AG99 spoke of the team atmosphere in the military and how well it works... Well, do you suppose it might have something to do with the fact that, if an enlisted man were to become a "disgruntled worker" and walked off the job, he could be shot? In the military...you have no choice but to comply. The Republican party and corporations seem to be of the mindset that this would work well in an office or factory setting .... Mindless robots...doing exactly as they are told and accepting whatever scraps the bosses want to pay.
Bill Crane,
*sigh* Why is it that people like you seem to have such a hard time with reading comprehension and basic critical thinking skills?? I just don't get it.
In answer to your question, NO I don't think we should compare ourselves to third world countries. I used that as an example as to what DEFINES a "living wage" and "decent living".
As for calling right wingers "anti-american"...gee, way to prove that YOU are the anti-american one. We don't call people anti-american because we don't happen to agree with them on everything...but feel free to be a braindead hater all you want. It only makes you look pathetic in the long run.
MUW,
Thanks for proving my point for me.
Did you happen to notice in the wikipedia article that it didn't provide a definite definition. It used a bunch of different indicators, but they are subjective indicators and are not even a standard...using such phrases as "in some nations" and "although in many cases". There is no practical definition for a "living wage". It is subjective, based on multiple variants that are not necessarily based on economics.
As for your other comments:
If you brought in a foreign worker to try and do my job, you'd have to fire me first or lay me off, since my position is the only one of its kind in the company I work for. As for paying them $7.25 an hour, well you'd have to greatly reduce the SALARY of every employee in the company...which would be an extremely stupid business decision.
If I wanted to say "Take this job and shove it" and you threatened me with "blacklisting", you would be committing a crime and would go to jail, not to mention being sued.
I have been working for over 20 years and no, I've never seen these kinds of "predatory acts" and I've worked in multiple job fields. And I actually was a member of a union once, and can honestly say that I have never been so overpaid in my entire life.
Yes, I compete against those who are union members...and I'll put the quality of my work and my overall work ethics, individual ethics and business ethics up against theirs any day of the week and twice on Sunday...and I'll win.
Why? Because MY ethics are more demanding than the unions, MY principles are better than the unions and because I don't believe in being given anything I haven't earned.
If the unions had my ethics, everyone would want to belong to one. Too bad they don't.
And by the way MUW, everything I learned about unions came from FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE...not a sound byte. I know it's hard to believe your beloved unions are far from perfect and are not the "defenders of the common man" like you believe...but try and survive the shock ok?
Bill Crane It is not just the Republicans and if you where an honest person you would have admitted it. The Democrats are as equally guilty of betraying the American Worker as the Republicans!
Worse the Democrats "Pat US on the Head" while they "Stab US in the Back!
Labor needs to drop this False US or THEM Paradigm and realize it is ONLY Them!
When during the early 1930's the Demo-Republo-Bureau-RATS tried this exact same Tactic the American Worker threatened to throw ALL OF THEM out of Office only then was Roosevelt allowed to rise to the Office of President by the Corporations Robber Barons and Oligarchs (much to their later chagrin)! Do your own research and you will see.....
Obama is as Corrupted by Wall Street as Romney, as this Election should have proven that to EVERYONE! Speaking of Which........
Impeach Obama in 2012 and Imprison Clinton for Criminal Conspiracy to Cover Up the Murder of an American Ambassador, Intentionally Lying to the American People Secret CIA Prisons and Supporting Al Qaeda in Benghazi-Gate and now in Syria!
Psst Wiz Kid how can I define something that varies State by State? I can give you indicators for each locality and a few minimums but beyond that....
OK as Management usually does Your Fired....Jose will learn your job at half the pay! Now what?
Black list Hahaha country Club "chatter" Wiz won't work and just sets around complaining......
PS you are still recieving benefits from Unions though whether you'd admit it or not!
It's amazing how Liberals/Progressives claim they are so well educated and promote moving "forward" yet they cower behind the skirts of an incompetent and unsustainable government and corrupt unions to promote their agenda.
They submit so willingly to people they have never met, know less about them than their neighbors and meekly surrender their hard earned money to them and wonder why they can't achieve anymore than middle-class status.
Barrack Hussein promotes mediocrity to them and they allow themselves to be indoctrinated in the belief that being middle class is the best they are allowed to attain. It's so sad to see them humble themselves in front of corrupt
unionsgoonions under the belief that they actually care about them. Of course the goonions tell them they care about them, as long as their union dues are paid up.The age of Progressivism that has been the slow ruination of our great Republic, along with its Keynesian economic nonsense and convoluted union support is coming to an end. Once we rid ourselves of this unsustainable wet-dream that the faculty-lounge wanna-be elitists like Barrack Hussein confabulate about, our great Federal Constitutional Republic can return to its days of pride, ambition, entrepreneurism and exceptionalism for those willing to truly work for it.
This is payback by the GOP in Michigan trying to enshire collective bargaining rights into the state constitution. they started this dog war and the elected officials of Michigan is about to put it down like a bad horse. Why did nearly 50% of the rank and file members of the unions not vote for Obama. This is all about Union leadrship trying to control the rank and file members. As an ex union steward for IAM, the glad handers are more interested in protecting their own interests than in representing the interest of the rank and file members. they are no differnet than the politicians. Anyone of you left wing libs think that when you dont have any dirt under your fingernails or blisters turned calluses, think you have any clue go back to college courses. y'all are all wet behind the ears and still children that they you know everything but dont know squat. All you libs and activist, try working for a living then come back in 20 years. otherwise put it where the sun does not shine
MUW,
Thanks for once again proving my point for me. You said it yourself:
How can I define something that VARIES FROM STATE TO STATE!!
Liberals and progressives constantly talk about a "living wage" and a "decent standard of living"...yet when you are pressed to actually say what exactly that is, this is your usual answer. That is why your argument is absurd. It lacks any foundation in reality and logic. Instead, it focuses on some ephemeral ideal that you can't even define adequately.
So tell me, how exactly is a business supposed to pay you a "living wage" if you can't even define the damned thing??
As for "Jose" learning my job at half the pay...good luck with that. You won't be in business very long. Considering the qualifications that are necessary to even do my job...yeah, I don't think that $7.25 an hour is going to get you anybody.
And no, I'm not receiving benefits from unions...but keep trying to claim otherwise all you want. I guess that means you're receiving benefits from slavery and war right? This country wouldn't even be here today if it wasn't for both of those.
After all, something that was done long ago is still giving you benefits today right? Right?
It seems like some people here are under the impression that this law is going to outlaw unions. Not sure where you got that from. It just allows people to choose whether or not they want to be a part of it. If the union is fair and worthwhile, people will join. I thought you Democrats were pro-choice?
The assault against unions is part of the class war started back in the 1980's by the Reagan regime. The ultimate goal is to bring the living standards of people worldwide to subsistence levels while the wealthy few have absolute power. The Conservative Republicans are just stooges who sold out the interests of the middle class for their own personal gain; they are just the puppets of the wealthiest few.
We are on the path of the New World Order.
The only hope for America is a revolution against the tyranny of the wealthy who wish to control our government.
I didn't have time to read the whole thread here, but I really think the issue is clouded.
First of all, wasn't this article and issue about the Michigan republican legislature pushing through this law without any committee hearings or discussion? And doing it in one day, without much discussion about doing it before?
I have never heard of the clause that allowed anyone not wanting to join a union in a union shop just having to pay a fee if they benefit from any collective bargaining from a union, but seems to me that would be fair.
The fact still stands that in 8 of 10 so-called right to work states, poverty rates are higher, no real difference in unemployment and workers have far less security. (read that as they can and will be fired if the boss has a nephew needing a job or he doesn't like the way you smile). Safety in those right to work states are also behind other states. I can only guess in those other 2 out of 10, the state has stronger employment and safety laws on the books.
So the issue I see is this is being shoved down our throats in one day without any discussion by the republican legislature during a lame duck session because they lost too many seats to hope to do this next year. When the people didn't pass the issue on the ballot to put union protections in the constitution, that didn't mean we all wanted to have legislation written to weaken unions. There is a pattern here. The people will sound off in 2 and 4 years from now. If the legislature misread the peoples desires, they will hear about it. If they read them right, they will be rewarded. This is all I have to say about the issue.
illumination fascination,
Good luck with your revolution. For your sake, I hope it's a peaceful one.
Armed, violent revolutions inevitably lead to the deaths of far more innocent people than they ever do those who the revolution is against...and rarely achieve the goals of the revolutionaries. Just ask the French, the Russians and the Chinese, to name but a few.
Something to keep in mind before you start throwing that particular word around.
The Wizard of Wisdom.....something that was done long ago is still giving you benefits today right? Right?
Exactly and if you where "Honest" you'd admit it. Still I can understand how somebody who was SOooo indispensable might not be able to understand that without UNIONS they'd be working for Peanuts in a Company Compound and still singing I owe my soul to the company store~Merle Travis
But I understand I truly do, all that is important in life is what The Wizard of Wisdom believes and nothing else counts!
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
Jebus what an Ego....Oh well enough time wasted......Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.~Robert Heinlein
Remember Folks Demand the Recall Of Tricky Rick Snyder and all of these Anti Union UN American Wall Street Corrupted Politicians in Lansing MI and Washington DC!
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind except that you happen to be insane." ~George Orwell, 1984
MUW,
Ah ok, so you admit to receiving benefits now from slavery and wars that happened long before you were even born. Whatever floats your boat pal. I guess trying to claim REAL benefits now for something that happened long ago makes some kind of logical sense to you. Hmmmmm, probably ought to thank the Greeks and Romans while you're at it. Maybe the ancient Chinese and Egyptians too.
You say I have an ego, yet you're the one whose ego seems to be way out there. After all, you are claiming to KNOW that every politician in Lansing and DC who is for this bill are corrupt, anti union and un-american.
Dude, my ego hasn't got anything on yours. LOL what a hypocrite.
As for "teaching a pig to sing"...childish insults like that only make you look...well, childish. Do grow up someday huh?
Oh yes unions will raise your wages alright, but at the same time your cost of living will consequently rise even more then your wage. Don't you understand, the company will simple raise the price of your production to offset the extra cost, so when you go to buy the finished product you, yourself will pay for your raise. We used to make a good living at $5.00 @ hour and now you complain about 50.00@ hour in many places.
The Wizard of Wisdom,
A revolution can't be started by any one individual or group. The conditions that exist within any place or time where there is mass injustice and wealth redistribution to the richest few are just a few of the things which cause the masses to be questioning the current and future direction of their lives as being influenced by their governments.
The class war is real and the victims of it are the middle class. The revolution of the greedy aspirations of the few vs. the needs of the many must die post haste; it's a cancer that will lead to the collapse of the country due to the economic instability of the largest majority of the wealth being concentrated within the hands of the fewest people.
illumination fascination,
On the contrary, revolutions are always started by an individual or group. While you are correct that the right conditions have to be there, it is ALWAYS an individual or a group that starts it. Revolts are the result of one individual or a small group that defies the existing order. That defiance draws others of similar mind to them and the revolt grows.
History is full of such instances...as it is also full of individuals who attempted to start a revolution and failed, as the conditions were not there like they thought they were. For every successful revolt, there are a hundred failed ones...and the price for failure is usually severe.
Revolutions are ugly things and very rarely turn out the way the people revolting think and hope they will.
@1.76 -- ashp said "Also, those complaining you MUST pay for the union, well you seriously think you can reap the benefits and not pay like everyone else?"
You're not the first person to make this ridiculous argument. Is it really a benefit to have a union negotiating on my behalf for my pay? I don't think so. Is it really a benefit to have a union tell me I can't go to work on Monday because we're all going on strike? I don't think so.
It's my career, my paycheck, my concern and nobody else's. If I'm doing a fantastic job at work, helping my company make more money, I expect to get a better raise than my co-worker who is a slacker and is lucky to still be employed. I don't want some union politician negotiating on my behalf, and lumping me into the same bucket with the slacker. I negotiate my own deal, and if I don't like it, it's a free country and I am free to tell the boss where he can stick it and go get a job somewhere else.
If my company wants to be tightwads and try to get away with paying less than our competitors, they're going to lose their best people to the competition, and if they keep screwing their people that way they will eventually be out of business. That's the way it should be. Free market economics, supply & demand -- for labor just like for anything else.
I am happy to compete on my own merits with anyone in my industry doing my same type of work. My performance and free market economics decide what I'm worth, not some collective bargaining negotiation.
The Wizard of Wisdom,
American Democracy was founded by revolution. Just as the wealthy few seek to subvert majority rule by undermining the political and economic power of the middle class is merely another revolution against our country. I believe that the further they push their agenda, the greater the movement will be to preserve all the gains made by the middle class in the 20th century.
If anything, I am a counter-revolutionary that seeks to restore the middle class to being strong and viable; for without a healthy middle class, true democracy can't exist.
I have pretty much decided that I AM NOT GOING TO BUY A CAR MADE BY UNION WORKERS. Sorry folks. All those a$$holes voted for Obama anyway, who wants to destroy this country as we know it.
Ok to be fair, President Obama is to Unions what Republicans are to Grover Norquist and SuperPACS. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what the difference is. Now on to my point:
Unions are like a double-edged sword. When they work like they suppose to, they are great for both the workers AND the companies. When they don't, they become a burden for both. I don't believe that no one here will disagree that when unions do what they are suppose to do in protecting worker's rights, working with companies to make the business more competitive and profitable which makes both parties flourish, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that some unions (well the leaders) become infatuated with power and greed that they only see what they want and not the actual workers that belong to the union and when they don't get their way they "persuade" their workers to stike by giving them the information that only benefits their desires. This is where the problem lies and I'm sure this is also another reason to create a bill like this one but sadly, this has nothing to do with it.
The main principle is to take as many rights away from the worker so that the companies can do what they please and not worry about the pressures of the unions. This is why I said if Unions were doing what they are suppose to do, working with the companies, instead of lobbying and paying off politicians to advance their "agenda", the Unions would be in a better position to argue their point and wouldn't have to "force" people to buy into them in order to "obtain" a job. I do believe that people should have the option to join a union or not by weighing the pros and cons respectively. I am sure that there are still some good unions left that do exactly what they are designed to do and those shouldn't have to pay the price for all the corrupt ones.
While the "right to work" law does make since, there should also be some provisions that protect the worker as well as the companies that are fighting to have this passed. Just like any bill, there should be some type of bipartisanship included or it's just the same one sided rhetoric that continues to dominate politics.
I've got to say that the amount of anti-union ignorance displayed here is truely mind-boggling (and sadly, some is by self-declared union members if they really are). A lot is just the usual RWNJ posturing too; you know, from the same people who predicted a catastrophic US failure within a year or two of Obama's first election, then when that failed to materialise, the landslide victory of Romney as well as GOP gains in the House and Senate this November. So pardon me if I don't believe a thing that falls out of your mouths; your track record with the truth is pretty poor.
So many stupid comments to rebut... sigh. In no particular order or importance, here's few that stuck out...
Seeing how less than 7% of the private labor market is union, I seriously doubt that was big factor in the outsourcing of jobs. In fact, a lot of the jobs lost to overseas were non-union (think clerical like call centers and data entry and low-skill manufacturing) where even their minimum-wage pay was too much. Most of the good union jobs that disappeared have been gone for years. How long has the rust belt been dead?
Sure, they make more money than the workers they represent; they have more responsibilty, shouldn't they be paid for that? Or is that only OK if you're a republican? And most work far more than 40 hours every week; they put in a day at the office, then have meetings in the evening when their members are off work. And none of them make even close to $10 million a year, which is the average CEO pay. And if you don't like where their political contributions go, ask for your money back; virtually all unions account for this and will refund that if asked as it's a law.
Really? You've worked next to every union worker in America and out-worked them all? Do you have a large 'S' on your chest? Pure ego-driven drivel here....
As to all the supposed current and ex union members who are whining about how unions are bad, what did you do about it? Did you go to meetings and voice your opinions? Question your union officers? Run for union office so you could effect change? Unions are democratic organizations, and every member has a voice and a vote. If you didn't do any of these things, then you're just another talk-is-cheap blowhard.
I'll add one more observation. I have personally seen top-tier non-union employees offered union membership, and less than 5% of them refused; the rest nearly leaped on the opportunity and not one has left membership and gone back non-union. Several of their former employers have since become union businesses because they were unable to replace them, even after they offered them more money.
truely believe that subjects like this need a public vote. Most politicians have not real reference to how working people feel and for that reason can not know what thier constituants really want and should allow the peole to say yes or no on these union busting measures.
many of you seem to have no grasp of reality either when you describe unions as thugs and worthless money grubbers or what ever acronym you chose. Unions still have a place today. Without the union we all (anyone who is not a CEO or very top level management) will suffer in the coming years. Anyone who believes they will be treated faily if the labot watchdog we call unions is gone is living a pipedream. In less than 10 years you will see your working conditions erode and wages erode even faster. I know you say I have never worked at a union job and have done well without them. The fact is wheather you have ever been a union member or not is irrelivent. Unions have still affected your work environment. unions brought you the 8 hour day as the standard mark. unions brought you safe working conditions and holiday pay, Unions brought you vacation time and sick days. Unions are in large part responsible for FMLA being passed so you can care for a sick family member.Unions faught for fair wages that transfer in most cases to the non union worker in the same facility which sets a higher standard wage for ALL salaried workers across the country. unions got you overtime pay and the list goes on.
If you who complain about unions think all will be well after unions are finally gone you are pretty nieve. Just look at the nation wage average over the last several years. Down quite a bit isn't it. Many are being forced to work 12 hour days and 7 day work weeks to keep thier jobs. Why? because there is less union influence today. Corporations don't like to share profits. They prefer to give bonuses to CEO who cut the thoats of the worker. all unions attempt to do is make corporations recognise that the CEO is not the only one responsible for the sucsess of the business.If this union busting continues you will be looking back one day and remember " the good ole days " because you will feel like you are living "a Christmas Carol" in a few years.
"Management should be part of the team, not the enemy". I wonder if pigs say that about the farmer.
Unions did not create the "Us vs them", mentality. Companies did that with subhuman labor conditions.
I can understand why people feel unions are outmoded and archaic. But be careful what you wish for. Management is not your friend. They view you as an unavoidable expense, one to be minimized. That is their job.
"Right to work" just deals with private sector unions.. It's the public sector unions that are destroying Towns, Cities, & States here lies the real problem.
I thought liberals were for "right to choose" and "free choice", or does that apply only to abortion?
right to work state? no! a right to work for less, state. So the gov. can have a voice. the corporations can have a voice, but the worker shouldn't? That's what this is. If you want so called "free markets", then eliminate the corporate laws all together. make them operate as a single entity without the special protections that the gov. is giving them. That "we the people' are giving them. Treat anything that is made over seas as a foreign product and put a tariff on it, just like our founders did. Just like china does to us. If you make your stuff over seas, then you should not be an "american" anything. If workers do not deserve the protection of a union, then he owners should not get protections either. But the rich and their republican defenders, just love having it both ways in their favor. And you republicans just love supporting your own demise.
Just another nail in the coffin of the republican party, showing that they only care for the greed and profits of corporate America and nothing about the middle class and workers!
Michigan Gov.
"We must reduce the salaries of workers and their right to strike!" NO, these were Hitler's words in 1933. T
The Nazi's live again in the republican party. I know! I lived, as a youth, through the raise of the National Socialists and the similarities between them and the republicans today are many! God save us from the republicans!
Lying Obama youth. Get out of the union hall and go picket, somewhere!
Monkey@Keyboard, #1.13- EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've heard this same thing bogusly called "Employee-at-will". 20 years on the job and you can be let go on a whim, with not even having to be given any reason for your dismissal, even after 20 years, because you're an "Employee-at-will"? Who's will?
"FORCED" ARBITRATION is UNconstitutional in and by the "effective" deprivation of Due Process of the Law to the Individual. The 14th Amendment expressly states that Congress has the power "ONLY" to enforce, by Legislation, that Individual Rights are upheld. They DO NOT have the power to legislate these laws that blatantly violate Individuals' Rights of the Bill of Rights. NO DEPRIVATION TO DUE PROCESS (5th Amendment), just as a beginning.
I don't quite get why voters elect any republican anymore. Don't you people see the path of destruction left behind after they are through with you?! I refuse to pity a population that self inflicts these actions upon itself as though they have intentionally contracted a flesh eating virus!
Stop voting republican and these attacks on the middle class will end!
GOP wants US workers to be just like the Chinese workers.
unions are america at it's best...the hell with the rest...
Pigotry and AmericanGirl - You two have lost your minds. You two would fight to your dying breath to ensure that your Right to Choose whether to have an abortion or not is not restricted, but you cannot find any way to support the right of an American to choose to join a union in order to get a job.
The law that is about to pass in Michigan, and already exists in 23 states, only says that no one shall be required to join a union to obtain employment. That is it! If you must join a union to get a job, that is being forced to join a union.
Unions are nothing more than watch-dogs for the corporation... you pay your money & in turn, the Union "claims" to be watching your back & fighting for your rights.... in reality, the union is just extorting money to be used for illegal purposes..... Unions today are nothing more than a scam to make a few leaders wealthy & keep the many in their place.....
...and the horse you rode in on, #1.159- What a TOTALLY EXCELLENT! post!!!!!!!! EXCELLENT!!!!!
I think the "path of destruction" is [under the rug] that gets vaccuumed to be neat and tidy DAILY and around-the-clock!
Not to say that Unions don't have a couple of fingers in it, too; but at least it's not the whole hand, arm, shoulder and housing of the cerebral cortex in the head!
Steve-44600, #1.163- EXCELLENT!!!
And "literally" unfortunately there seem to be many-many indicators to the "truisms" that you speak!
While workers do have a RIGHT to organize (even in a 'Right to Work State), it's wrong to FORCE them to join a union in order to work, and to require that the least capable employee get the same pay as the most competent.
This change is just common sense.
AG99 Comment collapsed by the community
"I would rather work for a company than a union. Management should be part of the team, not the enemy. Unions foster an "us vs them" mentality that leads to an unsatisfying work environment.
And I don't want membership in an organization to be a requirement to get my job, especially one that forces me to pay them dues and promotes others with less merit ahead of me just because they've been there longer."
And what company would you rather work for then ? MOst all company's that do not have unions today have a pay scale at or very near what unions do pay to enable then to keep good workers. Even their benefits given to these same workers match or are better than those of union company's in order to keep the best workers. So..what happens if all company's get their way as the republicans are pushing for..just where will the pay scales go..up..highly unlikely...down..bet on it. Will cost of goods made go down along with wages..not likely nor will the pay for CEO's go down. JUst what kind of help or protections will you have with the loss of all unions ? I can see none at all. With unions gone company's can hire or fire you at will and will do so...just as they did before unions were started. Granted..the government unions are a bit different....their pay scales are off most charts that I have seen...and do not compare to any pay scales outside of government...that one does need a looking at..but in general..unions have done well for most workers..protecting then from company's that care nothing at all about who makes their products...just the profit they get from them.
Economists say that 'Right to Work' States tend to have much stronger economies and lower unemployment rates than 'Union Required' States.
This is a no-brainer for those that want jobs instead of rhetoric.
Can anyone say: Andrew Carnegie?
Get rid of the protection offered by unions and every time management has a nephew graduating from school they can fire a loyal worker, give the nephew the job then bump him up the ladder over the people who have been dedicated workers for years.
Get rid of the protection offered by unions and they can get rid of those workers who have been dedicated workers for many years so they can hire people in at minimum wage.
Get rid of the protection offered by unions and there will be no negotiations regarding wages or benefits; it will be 'Our Way Or The Highway".
Get rid of the protection offered by unions and workers can expect to work for the same wage they were hired in at ad infinitum.
Get rid of the protection offered by unions and the retirement accounts, if any are offered at all, will not be vested. After you have worked for 29 & 1/2 years preparing for retirement at 30 years they will fire you, your retirement will disappear and you can start over at square one.
Get rid of the protection offered by unions and the corporate greed monsters will continue to pick away at OSHA, DEP, EPA and Labor & Industry health and safety regulations, leaving workers' at the mercy of the corporations.
Getting rid of the protection offered by unions is the first step in a corporate take-over of our government. They want to eliminate minimum wage laws, workers compensation insurance regulations and overtime requirements. Our workers will be in no better shape than those in third world countries.
This is the GOP proving who it is that they represent. Big money, big business ... and to hell with the working class!
I support thr right to work states. I am against any union that forces me to pay into the system, then use my dues, my money for their own political party that I do not agree with. I feel its up to the person's choice if they want to be apart of the union or not. I also think unions are so corrupted these day especally the union workers who work at the crysler plant who got caught smoking pot and drinking and still got their job. I would never buy a car from a a company/unions that allows employees to get away with that sort of behavior.
Right to Work states are not what you people think they are, it gives the right for any Employer the right to fire you without cause, don't like the way you look your fired, don't like your religion your fired, don't like your age your fired, don't like your race your fired,and you have NO right to appeal your firing that is the Right to Work policy, really nice system I know I've worked in states that have those Right to Work labor rights, I thought the Union was the enemy but I found out different believe me .... ANYTHING the right wants is not good for the working people.
Let me give some of you a little back ground information as to why this is happening. Outside of southeastern Michigan it is not pro union nor anti union but what is right. A few years ago our former Gov. Granholm and the seiu got to gather and decided that day care workers now belong to a union no vote no asking them just a union dues notice. since most took care of their neighbors kids or helped look out for the elderly the amount was more than most could afford. When they complained they were told that they were classified the same as teachers thus belonged to the union. So this is the reason this has come about. No one should be forced to join but are not stopped if they choose to join.
Crazy Steve,
Your comment about military pay was very inaccurate. Yes, they get housing allowance or base housing. Base housing is very scarce, usually only for officers or higher ranking enlisted men, IF there is availability. The allowance comes no where close to paying for even a cheap apartment. Often enlisted families live in undesirable locations due to cost, even though the military can determine that a complex is "off limits". The base retail stores (PX, BX or commissary) are not cheaper than off base retail. They just do not charge the state taxes like local stores. This is really good for smokers and drinkers. The medical is not always top notch on base. But the Tri-care for off base used to be good, I don't know how good it is now. But since you are property of the U.S. government, they are only protecting their property, while you are owned by them, after they are through with you, forget it. Benefits for education are a must! You really can't use them while you are in the service due to assignment changes, but since these young men risk their lives for our freedom, they DESERVE a chance to get an education so that they can live a productive life after the military. What risk did your $21.00 an hour janitor take with Cadillac insurance, and guaranteed pension?
As far as slavery goes, in the military, you cannot just quit if you get tired of it. The military owns you until your contract expires, and sometimes even past that. You go where they tell you to go, when they tell you to go, and take whatever risk you are told to take. Used to you only had to go to combat zones for a specified length of time. Now, they send you back again and again, like a bad game of Russian Roulett, until you are no longer able to do what they ask, or dead. And don't get me started on VA hospitals. Most of them, (not all, there are some in smaller cities that still go good work), are like a bad horror movie. You go in for one thing, they experiment on you for another. And of course, they only treat non-retirees fo issues that started while in the military. And STILL they are overcrowded. That is a lot of damage for 4 to 8 years of service (on average). IF they treat you for the problem that you do have, you are likely to die just waiting for an appointment. It's no wonder that there are so many damaged military and Vets. They fight for the people who do nothing but expect more and more, only to come home and be spit on (literally). IF they survive, many have PTSD due to experiencing and seeing things that no one should have to. If they do not experience PTSD, many cannot go to college even with funding: how do they support their families while in school?
Military personell deserve everything, benefits wise that they get and a whole lot more. What have unions done for American freedom? Nothing. Even the good that unions have done, vacations, shorter work weeks, etc, do not equate in the least to what our fighting men and women do with little or no thanks.
BRAVO MICHIGAN!!!!!!
It's long past due that we move into the 21st century.
Unions had their place and purpose 100 years ago. I challenge any union supporter to tell me what significant improvement they have provided to the workforce in the past 25 years. The FMLA is the last workplace benefit and it was passed as legislation in 1993, not as a union initiative.
Union coercion must be stopped. The 19th and early 20th century goonion strong arm tactics must end. A business should never be required to submit to a strike with no equal response to that action.
As the global economy grows the unions have 2 choices. They can either adapt or work with industries to grow the economy, not their political war chests, or they can continue to diminish and eventually disappear.
There are 6.7 billion people, other than our 300 million, on this planet.
We can look at them as competition or consumers. Both are good. In a true free market economy competition and consumption are what drive commerce.
Union intrusion has put us at a decided disadvantage in the new 21st century economy. The Liberal/Progressive convoluted isolationist mentality will never work. We have massive debt and unfunded liabilities that must be paid. To think we can do that without a significant and dominant global presence is delusional.
We need to realize the days of the illiterate, unskilled, untrained worker making $50,000 and benefits is long gone, there are hundreds of millions of foreign workers that will be doing those jobs from now on. Technology, automation and decentralization are what will improve our productivity and prosperity. Our economy must become centered on science, technology, engineering, math and manufacturing innovations.
It's a shame the goonions have been complicit in the failure of our public education system. Our society will never be competitive when we graduate illiteracy. Union intrusion into our education system is to blame.
Michigan will become the 24th Right To Work state, soon the rest of the nation will realize this is the path to prosperity and growth in the new economy. I'm proud to be a witness to this truly historic freedom to choose.
It will be interesting to see how the unions can compete in a free-market system rather than by force.
@Pat (way up this thread at this point) -
You're right, they did help develop a better working force. As in past tense. Also, I might point out that most southern states have disavowed unions since the conception of the idea, and most working conditions are fair and equal. Secondly, there are other state run/government run safety regulators that monitor everything anyway, so what is the point of the Unions?
FCC? BBB? OSHA? There is always someone to run to in the case of a serious situation or scenario that might require aide. The union, essentially, is a "get me out of work" free card and at points "give me the right to riot without prosecution" card. Bunch of damned whiners. Ya know, if I were making $28 dollars an hour and screaming for more money because I wasn't making enough compared to.... hmm The president? I think I'd need someone to run me over with a car. Here's a thought - many southerners work and live on HALF of what Union-run states live on. Either 1 of 2 things: 1) Economy differential, cost of living, which has been steadily increased because of the increase in Union control in the North (which obviously cost of living is lower in the south) and 2) Southerners are smarter than northerners at knowing how to make a dollar worth a dollar. - My bet is both.
Quit relying on the Unions to control your life and learn to take control of your own. Individuals in Unions just make me think them weak and much like a puppet - let's pull a string or two and see if we can't get OUR way (says the unions).
Gotta love the Great Divider. obama says that giving people the option to join a union is merely politics. Then being required to join a union is just as political - but of course he wouldn't dare state that since unions supported both of his campaigns. Why would he want less support?
He did get that correct - the unions give you the right to work for less money since they require paying dues.
The only people who make out in a union are the thugs who run them. You peons dutifully pay your dues only to go on strike because of the unreasonable demands of the union thugs. Do you ever make up the money lost???
northern MI, #1.172- You can join a Union, if you want, but you can't "collectively" bargain, isn't that what's being said/done? Then why join a Union, even though you can?
Am I missing or misunderstanding something here?
Imagine that? Freedom of choice. Does anyone else see the hypocrisy of those on the Left? By the way for all of you stating that when the unions go away so does the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, sick pay, etc... please tell me why they haven't gone away already? Seeing as only 11.4% of the working US population is a member of a union. Looks like there is hope for manufacturing coming back to the Midwest yet!
Sam627556, #1.171- EXCELLENT!!!!
D. Appel, #1.169- EXCELLENT!!!!....EXCELLENT!!!!...EXCELLENT!!!!!....EXCELLENT!!!!....EXCELLENT!!!!....
JimSpence, #1.174- only because you asked, or was it "challenged"(?).........you might want to take a look at comment #1.169, and what does appear to be coming from, at least, not a Union Hater/ if not Supporter.
I thought Democrats were for "choice"? If a 15 year-old girl gets pregnant isn't it Democrats who yell and scream that this young girl should have a CHOICE of whether to have the baby or not? And isn't it the Democrats that say if a young man loves another young man he should have the CHOICE to marry?
So when Democrats are SO concerned with "choice" then why is it when Republicans say a person should have the CHOICE of whether to join a union or not ALL OF A SUDDEN Democrats no longer believe a person should have a choice? Democrats believe it appropriate to FORCE a person to join a union even if he doesn't want to? You don't want young girls to be FORCED to have an abortion - do you? You don't want young men to be not have the CHOICE to get married - do you? Then why is it appropriate to FORCE someone to join a union? Shouldn't they have the CHOICE?
And if unions are SO good then why should they care about this "choice". Shouldn't workers STILL flock to join the union if it is so good? Or is it people DON'T want to work for unions and they simply want a "choice"?
Democrats are supposed to be Pro-CHOICE.
Shouldn't we have the right to work without being forced to join a union under duress?
Dues, taxes, Obamacare -- Get your big government Lib hands off my paycheck! Get your OWN job!
RIGHT TO WORK!
You pro-union activists need to stop believing the conspiracy propaganda the goonions keep feeding you about all the bogeymen in corporate America. You make yourselves more insignificant than you already are.
I grew up in a UAW neighborhood and even worked part time at the Ford Trim plant in Michigan while I was in undergrad. My parents and I saw what the unions were doing to corporate America even back then. At least Ford maintained its dignity and held onto its assets and weathered the auto industry collapse. GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to go through normal bankruptcy proceedings. Instead it was another criminal sell out of legal creditors and bond-holders to the thugocracy of the goonions by Barrack Hussein so they can redistribute the billions of dollars they make for political purposes.
I saw the idiocy and corruption of the unions on a daily basis and could only wonder how the people involved could allow themselves to be so easily manipulated. Long ago my dad told me the only people who support unions are those that know they are overpaid and under qualified. Not everyone fits that description but its more obvious today than ever.
Unless unions realize they can no longer protect incompetent workers, make unsustainable demands of corporations and continue their thugocracy mentality they will be extinct in less than a decade.
There is a place for unions in the 21st century economy, they just need to figure out what that place is. When they do they will benefit the workforce, the industry they represent and the prosperity of our great Republic. If they don't it will be a painful collapse to watch.
The ball is in the unions court, they can either keep trying to win by intimidation or they can help our economy by supportive involvement.
By the looks of things the decision should be easy.
First the schools are being shut down, then shut down the whole state of Michigan! See if they take unions for granted then!
The People of Michigan want the Republicons to get Lost !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why? Because they have a choice? So essentially all of you supposed adults are going to deprive children of an education because of your philosophy on having the ability to choose for yourself whether or not you'd care to be in a Union or not? You're an idiot.
Also, did this not recently happen? Due to teachers wanting more pay? Selfish and indignant. The only individuals suffering are the children's education. Quite frankly, if a child has to learn from such moronic individuals, perhaps the child shouldn't be receiving an education from these institutions.
The Wizard of Wisdom, Xaziol, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Well, the wingnuts are still spewing the same talking points (and rather repetitively at that), but let's take a shot anyway....
Wrong; RTW law effects all unions; it's the public-sector ones that are targeted in this case. And one thing to remember is that any labor contract can be broken without RTW; simply wait for the contract to expire and don't sign another one. This is the GOP betting on their favorite emotion (greed) and hoping that enough members stop paying dues for services rendered and the unions will go broke.
Who is forcing them to join? Even the dimmest-bulbs among you must understand that if you apply for work at a 'closed shop' union job where union membership is required, you'll have to join. So don't take that job; go find one of those non-union jobs that are heavily mentioned here that pay as much or more. And who determines who is the least or most capable? One thing that has been lost here is unions were founded on the idea of equal pay for equal work; if both are doing the same job regardless of 'capability', why should one be paid less? It should also be noted that employers determine job assignments, so if a worker is put into a job they can't handle, how is that the unions fault?
Only some say that. And if you're going to quote economic data, don't forget to mention that nearly all RTW states also are in the top half of welfare, food stamp and medicaid usage, get more money from the federal government than they pay in, and rank in the bottom half in terms of education. That's what RTW buys you...
And for all you union-haters that think that unions wages don't affect yours and they're simply overpaid, here's a cautionary tale. In the mid-80s when construction work was poor, a skilled craft local union here voted a $5 per hour wage decrease to make them more 'competitive' with the non-union shops. Result? The non-union shop owners promptly cut all their workers wages by the same amount (with no vote it should be mentioned) and nothing changed except every worker made less. The non-union employees were p!ssed, but had no recourse. What was even more interesting, it was found by checking bid results that the shop owners (both union and non-union) only reduced their costs to the customer by $1-2 per hour at most and pocketed the rest.
Welcome to the 'future'....
Selling out to big business, corporations and the rich is the new motto of the scum republicans!
I guess rewarding Greed with more Greed could also be said of the Party of NO!
I have to wonder how many of those out there protesting voted Republican.
This is nothing more than the systematic destruction of the working class by the GOP in order to kiss the collective a$$e$ of their contributors.
I saw on the news a few minutes ago (MSNBC) ,that:
7 out of the 10 poorest US States are RTW States.And only 1 out of the 10 wealthiest US States was a RTW State.
I think that says it all.
And the one 'wealth' RTW state that made the list was Virginia which seeing how it's a more-or-less a bedroom community to the capital is to be expected. Bring in enough polititcians and lobbyists and it's bound to skew the results.
For the rest of you RTW boosters, go ahead and wallow in your poverty, low wages, unsafe workplaces, and poor schools. Stop trying to drag the rest of us down to your level out of envy...
It was worth the one day suspension getting to call someone exactly what they are. Disagree with the fact that I was suspended for merely stating the truth however.
I have worked at two Co.s in my career that were non-union. I admit that both of those were good to work for ,but they committed the one unacceptable crime to me. After a time they became boring,so I left. all of the other places ,excluding my apprenticeship,which was a compulsive five years,which truly meant sixty months were union places.I often worked with people who had worked in so called right to work states and ,without exception ,they hated them and after having a job in union shops claimed that they would never work for a non union place if they could help it. Most professions insist that you join their unions such as Doctors, Lawyers ,Politicians,,Judges ,Medical Techs. E.T.C. These unions were formed to advance and protect the conditions of their members and have done so. The people who are saving their membership dues may be pleased that they do so ,but should remember nothing is for free.
Unions are important ...as checks and balances to corporate tyrrany. Unions are not perfect, but unions are important to fight corproate tyranny and market tyranny.
Unions suck and are sucking the life out of America.
wrong corporations are sucking the life blood out what do ceos make compared to average worker? Whats the bonus paid on dividends? WHY HAVENT WAGES GONE UP IF ceos make millions? Corporations are greedy vile and evil they need unions in order to force decent wages out of people who otherwise would let workers starve.
wrong corporations are moving to China and Mexico honey so they don't have to put of with your @!$%#.
TO: rgsdca1965 who wrote:
Unions suck the "GREED" out of greedy businesses that like to treat their employees like crap.
They also brought you the 40 Hour work week, bettr pay and a safer workplace and dignity to work. BUt thats okay, I dont expect malcontents like you to acknowledge anything outside your Teabagging moron mind.
The coorporate pigs just want to pay you like a 3rd world worker, not provide ANY benefits like a 3rd world worker. RIGHT TO WORK = GREED
Dear Corporate America, Go @!$%# Yourself. Lets RIOT!
So give Corporations all the tax breaks they want, no regulation, no minimum wage, no product safety, no child labot laws, no product safety laws, no health insurance , no retirement, no profit sharing. IN other words, MIDDLE CLASS, you need to be more like the slave laoborers of China, Indonesia and Insdia.
The GOP, SELLING OUT THE AMNERICAN WORKER and the Countyry for GREED and the almighty @!$%#ing Dollar
And union's demand for exobitant pay for unskilled work is what has moved millions of jobs overseas.
But union workers don't care, as long as they get that $25-$35 an hour to stand on a a production line and drill in screws.
I live in a town with a GM plant and most of their workers drive fancy cars and live in big houses, all while doing unskilled work and most not having a HS diploma, let alone a college degree.
Shameful that you guys believe that you actually DESERVE the wage that you squeeze out of management for the work you do.
Hey Pork Lady you have the right face Pigotry..You are one of the lazy bitches that expect the government to take care of you. Well the party is over for you free loading piece of dog crap.
We own the real world and you are not welcome, get a job.
The unions have served their purpose.
There are federal laws on the books that prevent the types of actions that you say will happen without unions, and government oversight for complaints, etc.
Just another excuse...do you guys realize how RICH the union bosses are?
wrong, corporations are moving to China and Mexico so they can pay the workers less than a dollar an hour.
@ Pigotry
The same checks and balances you blatantly want to overlook for the GOP in the house?
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
Besides, the right to choose is a checks and balance system, not forced Socialism through Unions.
Workers and families have to have the right to spend their money how they want to. Being made to pay union dues should be their choice, not the unions.
If it's a good deal, people will flock to them.
Seems very fair to the worker and his family.
And then bring their products back to the US, sell them at WalMart to the masses while the CEOs sit back and rake in their profits. Meanwhile, the WalMart cashier qualifies for food stamps in order to make ends meet while enjoying their non-union job.
@Kimbo47
Feds prevent this?
So do Feds doing anything about the new part-time hiring only or diminishing benefits?
Look at Germany, they have LAWS to control corporations by putting labor representatives on top of each company and punish corporations from shipping jobs elsewhere.
The result: One of the lowest unemployment and one of the strongest market you can find in any control.
Is that so bad to control corporations?
2-Lane Gypsy
I guess you are not aware that the government has rule and regulations on business.
Such as the ones you listed, there is child labor laws, Safety laws (companies are the ones that have to pay when employees do not follow the rules that they were told to follow and got caught, minimum wage law.
Fed law say companies only have to pay for work they actually performed. Vacations, holiday pays, retirements, paid sick days, other paid days off is a bonus. Just like the CEO get bonuses, so are you. And non union companies pay those as well.
@Pigotry and American Girl and all other laughable union apologists...
...please explain to me why, if unions are so swell, that people leave them in droves when they're finally given the choice? If unions are so great, why is their membership the lowest it's been in 70 years?
Then, while you're at, explain to me how the 88% of the people in the workforce who are NOT in any union are able to negotiate their own wages and salaries?
pigotry: And now please tell us how the unions have represented the workers of Hostess so well?
Unions are the dinosaurs that are destroying America. They forced the American automobile into the Dead Zone. They gave the auto industry to the Japanese and Koreans. They destroyed the tennis shoe industry. They are only concerned with power for the elite, just like that bozo-bama, the affirmative action prez.
AG99 Let me tell you some bout the support team of the military-WIVES! The twit wife that carried the ENLISTED OFFICERS CROWS WAS GIVEN MORE RESPECT THAN A BOOK LEARNED OFFICERS WIFE!. Only and "only" if college boy learn dirt up, did they get respect! May have been different in your world. In this new world, and in the 1960's we understood.
"Look at Germany, they have LAWS to control corporations by putting labor representatives on top of each company and punish corporations from shipping jobs elsewhere.
The result: One of the lowest unemployment and one of the strongest market you can find in any control."
Your info is a bit stale. Germany is slipping into recession, unemployment is on the rise. Much manufacturing moving to China.
@Rob-523523
Your information seems to lack about Germany lending huge about of money to bail out the rest of Europe.
Yes, they are slipping, but comparing to US and everywhere else, they are still in much better shape. Nothing is perfect.
If you have any better idea or know anywhere else better, do tell.
Why do republicans despise the middle class anyway? I got news for you repubes, Unions Are Here To Stay as long as there are republicans continually attacking the middle class. So my best advice is to get over yourselves.
@truthseeker-
Unions are a different discussion but the US auto industry doesn't have to look any farther than themselves for their failures. The Japanese developed a completely different model to design cars. They streamlined the process and took a cycle which took five years to three. Now that cycle is nearing one year.
There was also a completely different mentality about the future and quality. The future means US manufacturers went for the high profit trucks and SUVs. So they had a feast/famine cycle. Foreign developed economical cars knowing that is where the future would be and had much more even business. Regarding quality, of course the US manufacturers won't want to manufacturer poor quality cars. Still they considered certain failure rates acceptable. Others not really.
Now do the higher labor costs of "Detroit" make it harder to compete? Certainly! Not as much hourly wages as much as high benefits. Still management signed on the dotted line. So you have to give that a shared responsibility to management and union.
Non Union workers make $5,500 a year less than Union workers doing the same job.
Non Union workers have 15% less health care benifits than Union workers.
Non Union workers get in 53% more accidents than Union workers. Around here non Union companies have a very hard time quailfying for the ability to even bid on a contract because their safety records are so bad. The outfit that killed their workers on that oil platform last month is not allowed to even bid on a job around here. They are not worthy. We do not hire murderers.
GRAPH: As Union Membership Has Declined, Income Inequality Has Skyrocketed In The United States | ThinkProgress
"I just don't believe crap like that. First of all, the employees have to vote on whether or not they want to strike, and secondly no one is EVER forced to join any union"--American Girl....iowaretiree gives you their first hand perspective/experience, and you simply desregard it with "I just don't believe crap like that". Rather than give any benefit of the doubt, you simply say "that doesn't agree with my AGENDA but I cannot prove your actual experience wrong sooo....I just chose not to believe it"....You are exactly what the continous Obama campaign wants...a drone with a big toe called Pigotry...
People oppose unions by claiming they lead to "forced socialism" are attempting to force fascism through corporations.
The only serious danger the country faces is the stupidity of right wingers. For example, parse this phrase: "johnwaynepolitics." There can be nothing more idiotic.
The guys who complain about how much union bosses make - they make far less than corporate bosses, so what's your point? That's for the members to deal with, not some twink neo-fascist teabugger politician.
want to know what good a union in 2012 is look up the following terms
1. Featherbedding
2. Clerical workers making 165,000 a year and wanting 195,000 + 11 weeks paid vacation.
Shows how greedy and useless unions are.
I personally witnessed a union loose 200 people their jobs and the other 400 non union employees today still have their jobs. Unions are like the gov't take take take.
Any employer who treats people poorly or under pays = no employees and no business
Agree with JohnWayne, Jax, etc.
The lefty circle-jerk is just too much. It's comedic gold, but it's still somehow sad at the same time...this is now the world we live. SMH for my business, family, and employees.
And what the CEO's make is up to those companies' board members, not some whiny little pillow-biting communist.
88% of the workers in our country found a way to do it without unions...and union membership is at a 70 year low. People are leaving the unions when finally given the chance, just look at AFSCME numbers...try explaining those facts away, Sparky...if your mom lets you stay up late enough.
rosieodonnellsmoustache ....
Great discussion on this board tonight about unions and Right to Work states and that is what YOU contribute? Go back to the basement and come back with a thought or contribution rather than your usual insult against those that post liberal.
I graduated high school in 1984 and took a job at a local lock manufacturer in Tennesee while trying to earn money for college. My first day I was shown my duties of basically cleaning up the shop and all janitorial work. Minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. During my first day a couple union thugs told me that I had to join and my dues would be $40.00 a paycheck. Do the math. That is $1.00 an hour from $3.35 an hour. That was almost 1/3 my paycheck. I told them i wouldnt do it. When i went to my car after my first day of work all 4 of my tires were slashed and a note taped to my windshield that said "respect the union".
Unions are nothing but prison ganges minus the bars filled with people who cant compete in the real job market.
hey howdidwethere just o let you know i reported you for inflammatory comments. Your comment just shows how you have to attack individuals because you clearly are on the wrong side of the argument. You are either an elitist or someone scared to bite the hand that feeds. Either way i hope your banned.
Unions are nothing but a bunch of pathetic thugs.
I've been threatened by them before and a number of years ago, I even had to stick a gun in one big dumb welder's face to make him back off after he threatened me with bodily harm if I didn't join them. They LIKE using strong arm tactics until you make them realize that such tactics could prove fatal.
So, anyone who supports the unions...don't you EVER talk to me about how great they are. I know better. I've dealt with them and I've watched them destroy more than one company over the years. They are nothing but a bunch of blackmailing, corrupt extortionists who think they can demand whatever they want from whoever they want and get away with it.
Take your bloody unions and shove them up your backside.
randy i want a link for your information saying clerical workers are paid that much. i simply don't believe you. there has to be another title to their job. and saying i knew a girls whose cousins cousin made that much doesn't count as facts.
Randy-840072 . . . .
Seriously? Can I have a link? I've been an Administrative Assistant and a Partner (in an accounting firm's) personal secretary. I'd LOVE that job! Keep us all posted on your so truthful (NOT) post!
Pot meet kettle Layton? Is that all you do?
You're material is gold...please keep it coming.
rosieodnnellsmoustache ...
My "material?"
coming from the likes of you, what a compliment. no pots and kettles, I'm way above you on the IQ scale and on how to communicate and have a civil discourse. What rereg are you again? BigBenAlaska springs to mind .... Can't keep a screenname without being banned? But still totally addicted. S A D!
^^ LOL!!! You just lost all creditability.....that's funny, you're one bad dude.
moshuluu,
I could care less about losing credibility to someone like you. It was an incident that did occur. Whether YOU believe me or not is irrelevant. Do you believe unions don't use intimidation tactics? Perhaps you should actually do a little thing called research sometime.
By the way, sticking a gun in someone's face doesn't make me a "bad dude". It just makes me someone who will not be bullied. If someone threatened you with bodily harm and you were in a position to defend yourself, what would you have done?
So, feel free to mock me if it makes you feel good. It only makes you look stupid in the end.
Simply put, a loss for unions is a loss for everyone. I am not in a union, but with a deterioration of unions comes a deterioration in the power of the average American worker. The US is being run over roughshod by international bankers, and with that, we are losing our national sovereignty and being "put in our place" by them, like we are some Banana Republic. Tyranny has never died, but this tyranny hides its face from public. Anyone ever wonder where all these "bailouts" went? Follow the money trail and it leads to the criminal, who controls both Republicans and Democrats alike.
Germany has the strongest labor unions in the world, and the strongest economy. Coincidence? I think not. The reason all this is happening, is because Americans have taken what generations of Americans worked hard for pre-WWII for granted. Everyone got comfortable, instead of remaining vigilant, and just like that, we are going in reverse, more divided than ever, while the criminals we should be going after, are sitting back, having a smile, and celebrating their achievements of reversing the rights the masses have struggled for, for hundreds of years.
sandmantruth,
I hate to break this to you, but Germany does not have the strongest economy in the world. The US, China and Japan all have stronger economies than Germany does.
And no, a loss for unions isn't automatically a loss for everyone...contrary to what you appear to believe. In an ideal world, the unions would be what you believe they are, the guardians of the common man against the tyranny of corrupt management/owners. However, this is not an ideal world.
Many of your unions are corrupt and are only interested in the power that they wield.
Nobody is being forced to leave the unions. They leave because the avg. worker knows what B.S. the unions are. Unions steal your money, give it to democrat lawmakers who pass laws that demand you be in the union and pay dues. The dues money is then skimmed, stolen, by the union for their very fat salaries and benefits and given to cronies to "manage" union finances, all for a fee of course.
There is a real reason why most people leave the unions at the first opportunity to do so, and it is a reflection on the unions and no one else that the workers leave in droves as quickly as possible.
The only reason the unions and their purchased politicians fight an individuals right to make their own personal decisions about union membership is to insure the mandatory cash flow. They don't give a damn about the worker.
And I thought the likes of you are all about keeping guberment out of your lives....
Wrong, corporations are moving to China and Mexico so they can produce goods and services cheap enough to sell to the American Consumer.
So a woman should have the right to choose to have an abortion but a female worker shouldn't have the right to decide to join a union or not?
Pigotry,I want to have the right to choose wether i join a union or not.I also will not let someone like you take my choices away.People like you are so anxious to make the right choice for others but i am not going to let you do that to me.No way no how.
Wizard of Wisdom. Thank you providing further corroboration of Rule#2 of the internet - a poster willl always post something that is exactly the oppp[ostite of what their name implies. Your posts are the unmistakeable sign of a Right wing ROm-chioppped special. Picking a "fact" from here, and one from there. Keep it up and you'll find enough ""facts" to justify an invasion of Iraq. Shouldn't you be whining about Bengazi today? I think that's the order that's come down from the radio, no?
Layton - I don't have to explain myself, but find it somehow necessary to given your delusion. I have NO idea why you think that I posted under a different name, and WHY you would want to believe that. I don't even know if you CAN change your screen name. I've been on MSNBC since just before the election, and am new to this whole forum thing...which I am finding more and more creepy every day. Believe what you want, but if you continue to think I am some other person, you're a certified nut case with WAY too much time on their hands. Again, feel free to think I am some different "rereg?". Want more transparency? I, like countless others simply LURK these stories to see what kind of wacko's are out there...it's comedy, like your material. Sadly, I get sucked into posting sometimes.
Secondly, just because I believe differently than you, you have to stoop to saying someone has a lower IQ? Really? What grade are you in? Hahahahaha...everyone knows that when you resort to babyish tactics like that you're trying to compensate for, well, you get it. Honestly, you may be psycho.
Most people are losing focus on this union vs non-union debate. The change isn't outlawing unions - it is outlawing requiring people to join unions as a condition of employment. If people want to join unions they can still join unions. The problem is that the unions probably will refuse to support the workers since they will not have the management by the short hairs.
I guess people are to lazy to google info, so here ya go:
Boy am I in the wrong business...
Everything the American people worked for the Republicon Tea Loonies want to take it away !!!!
Howdidwegethere, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Kimbo-I live in a town with a GM plant and most of their workers drive fancy cars and live in big houses, all while doing unskilled work and most not having a HS diploma, let alone a college degree.
Shameful that you guys believe that you actually DESERVE the wage that you squeeze out of management for the work you do.
So,you have a problem with "mere workers" daring to step above their station in life and try to "ape their betters" huh. Daring to want to live a middle class lifestyle and make decent wages and benefits. OMG,who do they think they are anyways. Next,those "uppity" workers will want the right to vote,and the whole social structure could collapse.
@ Chong
If you have any better idea or know anywhere else better, do tell.
Remember your post 1.47 saying that 40% of Americas policies are already Socialist?
How much more so, is Europe in the utter failure that Socialism is? 80%, 90%?
The fix is easy, start undoing the Socialism that started with FDR, and watch America stand at the head of the class again.
Americans need to stand on there own two feet again, not the shoulders of our childrens over burdened tax future, brought via expanded entitlements and a suffocated/over regulated economy.
Randy-840072 ...
Please stop visiting my page and posting your innane comments on articles I have written that have NOTHING to do with this subject. You have the option to e-mail other "viners" and I'd suggest that in the future. I didn't report you this time. Do it again and I will.
Sorry just wanted you to see that I posted the truth.
Next time don't be so rude and I won't bother tracking you down.
For most of my working life I have worked in union shops and the anti union lies and rubbish that I am reading has never,in my experience happened.I have been on strike a few times and yes it is a hardship but it is one of the costs of gaining a fairer share of our endeavours. We still do not have the conditions and benefits that we should receive considering the profits that we make for those companies. The stories that I have heard from people who work without representation make me know that unions are worthwhile.I admit that the Union officials are like our political representatives,paid far too much in wages and benefits ,but that only means that neither of those members should be trusted to make their own working conditions. The old saying still is true,don't throw the baby out with the dirty water.
yeah this is what you get when you keep voting against your own will...its your own fault
NOW you want to fight....we told y'all what the republicans have been doing all these years..you voted them in
STSD! Shut The State Down! Every public employee should walk off their jobs and onto picket lines. Supervisors should be blocked from filling those positions. Every union member in the state should strike immediately. If scabs are hired to fill positions they should be treated exactly as scabs deserve to be treated. The Republican Party has declared war on the American worker, the American Middle-Class. They lost the prsidential election, but the battle still rages on. ALL Republicans need to be voted out of office.
even i am amazed at how clueless this party has become. they are in their death throes now; which each election cycle they will become more and more irrelevant.
Unions are democratic and if their officials acted in as unruly a manor as you detractors claim then they would be voted out of office. The shop stewards have to listen and respond to all of the members complaints irrespective of how ridiculous they are. If they don't handle their members in a reasonable way then they wouldn't be shop stewards for too long. Shop stewards have to respond in as diplomatic a way as they can,irrespective of how ridiculous the complaint from the aggrieved member may be.If they don't then they will not be a shop steward for long and that is the first rung on their ladder to advancement.I have never been a shop steward although i was asked to run for that position once . For a one of them to behave as some of you claaim can not be true .Either that or you are stupid for allowing anyone to behave to you in that way.
Unions through the early part of the last century were a good thing that taught companies how to treat their people and get better production from them. Today's Union is nothing more than the Mob gone legal. Essentially they are collecting protection money just like the Mob use to do in ht 20's. I guess i do'nt have a problem with people that want to belong to a Union but what I do have a problem with is the Forcing it on a person in order to have a job. That isn't right. There should be a National RTW law. What I do believe though is that if you don't belong to the union then you should not get union pay nor their holidays. That would make it equitable and the unions should buy that. But since it isn't about being fair only about getting the money of course the union won't accept anything that cuts into their funds. Unions in the later half of last century have done more damage than good. They look at their members as a hindrance that they have to put up with just to get the money. If we were to change the way they are allowed to operate that might show us thier real intent. As long as Unions are around the Mob will never die. People that object to the RTW laws are just as greedy as the unions are.
Most unions are just company's that whore out people.
Unless you are a multi-millionaire who loves tax increases, you're pushing for a system designed against democracy and against your own self interests. Capitalism is not democratic; it's autocratic with those who own or run the business making the rules.
Enjoy what you get. It won't be much.
Most Companies and CEo'S are just...WHores
2-lane...
Just like Jimmy Hoffa, right? Unions are a perversion of their original self. They cheat, rob, and beat anyone that doesn't tow the line. I work for a company that has a union. When contract negotiations came around, the union held a meeting at their hall...guess what? Those members that didn't attend the meeting were fined. How democratic is that? Giving people the CHOICE to decide to support their union financially without extortion by the union leaders gives people the chance to work in companies that are union based without the financial burden of supporting such an obsolete organization.
@JK1963
Nothing is perfect, there are some bad unions out there, but to lump everything together.
Here is an idea, you post your sources about corruption of unions and try to list the damage. I'll post the corruption in corporations, banking and how much they lost over the years. We then compare who cause more damage to the US.
Before you start, let's me remind you that talking about big cases alone would result in almost over 200 billions caused by corporation.
So, Let's start, shall we?
CuongD,
Not interested in having a pissing match with someone. Perhaps we could also talk about the failed auto industry that was caused by domestic car producers not being efficient (and more costly) than foreign counterparts, but that is a discussion for another time right? You see it works both ways...You cling to your ideology that all corporations are bad and unions are good, and the rest of the hard working people that don't make a living being under the tyranny of a union sucking my hard earned money for their undisclosed union president's salary, and undisclosed political contributions will think differently, ok?
@Pigotry
I hate to break your bubble but corporations are by definition there to make their shareholders money and not the public good. If they were there for the public good then they would either be a charity or a government institution. They are supposed to do everything reasonable to further their shareholders profits. Government on the other had is there to provide limits so everything reasonable is not against the public good.
Cuong, so why not give workers a choice?
They can join the good unions and not the bad. Are you saying that workers are not smart enough to make an intelligent choice on whether or not to join a union?
One thing for sure, if a union is not representing the workers and enough refuse to join the union would have to change to survive. Unions in the early 1900's were made up of and by the workers. Many now have large corporate sized governmental structures that could care less about the individual worker. They've become the evil corporation they're supposed to protect the worker from.
JK
Remember Reagan's tirade against the foreign auto makers, and his insistence that local content laws be ramped up so that the American workers could compete on a level field with their foreign counterparts? HAHAHAHAHAHA Reagan just kicked you in the nuts, piss artist!
@JK1963
Here is something you failed to understand. I never claim unions are good, I only say comparing to corporations, they are much smaller on the scale of corruption.
You don't want a pissing contest because you can't even list your sources. I live in Vietnam, one of the most unregulated capitalist market that close to China and I know more about corruption than you know.
You know the different between US and China? They have no unions in China, that is enough to tell about their working condition.
@Mike_P101
So, did Unions scam investors or losing billions of dollars? Or create one of the most historical price fixing-rate in the world?
I never said unions are perfect, but they are check and balance. Without unions, tell me how can average workers able to get a fair benefits?
China is without unions, do you like working there?
It must drive you connies crazy that Ford just opened a brand new plant in a right to work state (Kentuckey) and Ford welcomed the union while the employees openly embraced the union. Nothing like a real middle class wage, some benefits and a secure pension. Boy those kinda things really drives those nutty connies up a tree.
Cuong, I'm not a fan of corporations cheating people either! I've worked for non-union and union places and my pay was pretty much the same for either one. The non-union place gave more profit sharing. I'm all in favor of a good union.
So again, Do you believe that workers are not smart enough to make their own choice as to if they should join a union or not?
Pat,
Pretty mature response for a 3rd grader. I also seem to remember Reagan was in office oh about 30 years ago...domestic automakers during that time made significant strides in an effort to compete with foreign car manufacturers. You really need to go back to elementary school for much more mature responses...
Choung,
I hope that you are typing your response on an Apple product because you would just be keeping those Chinese workers enslaved....
@JK1963
First of all, spell my name right, that's a common courtesy, something you lack of.
And no, I don't use Apple, I have an android and I am typing this on my Window 7 Desktop.
And what does Chinese cheap labor has anything to do with what we are discussing? You know why those Chinese work 16 hours per day, 7 day per week? Because they have no regulation and no unions to fall back to.
Want company to move back here with deregulation? Make it so we American can work in the same conditions, no benefits, no healthcare, no insurance 16 hours per day, 7 days per week. That's the future if we keep lowering and lowering the salary/benefit standard to cater to the demand of corporations.
Cuong,
Its not the demand of the corporation....it's the demand of the consumer. People forget that consumers look for value vs. price. Given the choice between product A being produced in China and cheaper, and product B being produced here in America and more expensive, which do you think the consumer is going to buy? When people realize that labor is just another component of cost for a product, you'll quickly realize why the growth of products are being manufactured overseas. So go ahead and defend the unions, but in the end if unions can't stay competitive in cooperation with corporations, then they will be done.
YOUhateliberals,
If the non-union workers want the same benefits, they could be paying a "management fee" for doing the collective bargaining for them. Otherwise, they could be their own bargaining unit and be on their own. I bet the company would treat that person very well, getting others to join them. When enough cross over, their wages and benefits would be slashed. I saw just that happen in the industry I worked in. They got a great offer if they would leave the union. When they did, everything was great for them the first year. The following, they got exactly half what the union got. The union wouldn't let them come back, which I wholly disagreed with but that is what would happen more times than not I would fear. If they wanted to re-join the union, they had to start all over by paying another initiation.
@JK1963
Demand of consumers? You shrug off the whole thing nicely without even understand the basic of corporate way of doing things. Yes, consumers want cheap stuffs, but corporations want to make as much profit as possible.
Tell me, how much do you know the base value component of Apple product? How much they profit with each device?
Consumers want cheap stuffs, true. However, when corporations rake in record profits, making like double the cost and more, then everything you said are throw out of the window. Corporations only have one thing in mind, PROFIT, PROFIT AND MORE PROFIT. That's their biggest greed and that is the motive for shipping jobs and making more money. Simple as that.
THe anti-union hate the GOP has managed to create is the crowning achievement of the Right WIng Propaganda machine.Gettting a guy in the top 1 per cent to be jealous of a guy working to get by and provide and health care for himself and his family is a stunnning achievement. Luickilyt they aren't able to sway as muych a half of the electorate or we wold alll be in trouble.
Let's not forget without "evil corporations" there be no private sector unions... And without JFK's executive order he signed into law there would be no Public sector unions.
And by extension, unions should be held as accountable as management is. There is nothing wrong with forcing union brass to enumerate exactly how they have been representing their membership's interests and how indispensable they are to their base. Please tell me how any of the following is unjustified:
It's easy to see how nonsensical the "every worker should have to pay for union benefits because it's unfair for some to get the benefits for free on the backs of everyone else" argument is when these supporters can't even explain what the union actually provides for these workers anymore. Besides, isn't the essence of this argument the basic premise of the Democratic party? By that logic, it IS fair for only some workers to pay union dues - and the top wage-earning members should actually pay MORE so that the lower earners can enjoy the same benefits!
Not-so-bold prediction - the legislation will get passed, and subsequently turned down via ballot initiative, just as SB5/Issue 2 in Ohio last year. Case in point: congressmen & women may represent their constituents in the statehouse, but not all those constituents make it out to the polls. Additionally, the unions are typically able to largely outspend their opposition in these kind of campaigns.
Google "Ohio Senate Bill 5 Issue 2" and check the ballotpedia(dot)com link.
Oops, I misspoke above. Unions DO actually represent their members:
www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/chrysler-workers-drinking_n_2272291.html
This premise is completely flawed. All we hear from the right who whine and complain about unions is how overpaid the workers are with too many benefits while being so darn lazy. That's what unions do for the workers.
Let's look at it from another angle. Everybody not in a union is being underpaid, enjoying ever-diminishing benefits, and working the job of two people while receiving the paycheck for less than one. Then one day, management may decide that they can pay a fresh out of college kid less to do the same job, so they lay off the older more-expensive crowd who've earned a few too many promotions through years of hard work.
You all happy with the way the vote turned power in your state? Remember to vote with your brain every time.
Our Planet: I live in California and we are very happy everyday here!
Yep...happy in the knowledge that we will have THE highest state sales tax in the nation to support a corrupt public union system. We will also be happy in the knowledge that we are going to spend $100BILLION (yes...a BILLION) on a high speed rail line to nowhere... We will also be overjoyed when city after city will default and file bankruptcy...yes...it's one happy place being here in California!!
You mean, CA, where cities are filing for bankruptcy? Do you live in Pelosi's district? Where she said we have to "pass it to see what's in it" to tell us how wonderful Obamacare was? And then, it was SOOOO wonderful, her district got a waiver from it?
Yes, we are talking about California, which is looking to see a budget surplus possibly as early as 2014 after a decade of republicon deficits.
Oh, and did you hear about that whole county going bankrupt in right to work for less Alabama?
California Budget Deficit Shrinks; May See Surplus By 2014 « CBS San Francisco
Bankrupt Alabama county OKs budget with skipped bond payments | Reuters
It's going to see a surplus when more bankruptcies are expected?
Yeah, OK...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/california-bankruptcies_n_1799543.html
Milkit,
You are delusional. There has not been a Republican majority in California's legislature in over 30 years!! Anybody who lives in California know that the real power lies in the legislature, so how come we haven't we seen a surplus sooner? You obviously cowtoe to the liberals in this state. There will be no surplus by 2014! It's amazing the amount of ignorance in this state. You do realize that if Obama gets his way with the tax increase on the wealthy, plus the passage of Prop. 30, the highest earners in this state will now be subject to a marginal tax rate of 52%!!! Your blindness to the old ways of spend, spend and spend more are what California into this mess. You, sir, are part of the problem why California has the problems it has...
And I noticed that you didn't bother to defend my comments about the corrupt public unions here, or my comment on the billion dollar high speed choo-choo to nowhere...typical!
52%? It should be more as they have been able to own 45% of the wealth up from 44% and 42% in the two previous years. America doesn't need an Aristocracy!
52%? It should be more as they have been able to own 45% of the wealth up from 44% and 42% in the two previous years. America doesn't need an Aristocracy!
clwyd,
I'd expect that from someone that doesn't make the kind of money. Gee...why don't you tax them at 100%?? Would that be enough to keep the wasteful spending going in the state? Perhaps even better, they move out of state...then who is going to replace those lost tax dollars?? You? Would you be up for a tax increase as well? You seem to forget that you have enjoyed a tax break (thanks to Bush...). It's amazing the amount of ignorance when talking to people about taxes. You think that the rich should pay for everything...that's how California got in this mess. Rewind back 10 years when the tech boom was happening...states were rolling in tax revenues. Instead of saving for a rainy day, what did they do? They went out and increased spending at all levels of state government, they negotiated huge benefits for public employees. Now when the bust happened and the tax revenue dried up, what did California do? They certainly didn't cut back on spending, they kept going...spending even still....now with the money run out, what does California do to fix this? They raise taxes....gee...our politicians are morons and us as citizens keep electing the same spendoholic liberals election after election.
Please pass this law.......good by GOP in the next election
The Unions are the Last Line of Defense for all working, union, middle class. They help keep businesses in check, so that they act in fairness with their employees. Unions should represent all non-union workers, to lift them up from slave wages & poverty.
EXACTLY wages in right to work states SUCK and NEVER GO UP. Without unions whose going to fight for you if your boss fires you for no reason which does happen. Whose going to ensure that the corporation pays workers enough NO ONE. UNIONS should be nationwide and companies forced to pay high wages.CEOS should get no bonuses unless everyone in the company does.
TO: Tiffany1 who wrote:
They probably fire someone everytime they find someone who will work cheaper.
Bosses should be able to fire for no reason.
You get to quit for no reason, don't you?
Don't they deserve the same protection?
You speak out of both sides of your mouth.
TO: Kimbo47 who wrote:
Well, they're not allowed to "fire for no reason".
That would be illegal and subject the company to a wrongful termination lawsuit.
Tiffany,
What about the reverse? What about people that quit without notice? How would you have a company deal with that?? You see it goes both ways...
American,
Most non-union people are employed "at will", which means either party can terminate employment at any given time for any reason, non-discrimating issues aside.
American Girl ...
Unfortunately in RTW states, they can and do. I've not had a raise in five years and I work in an IT Department. My boss continually states that I am receiving a raise as he subsidizes my medical and dental benefits. I've moved in with a friend to assist with my costs. He on the other hand bought a restaurant and makes it into the office once a week. Yes, I could change jobs but when people see what I make now, they tell me it's too high for them to pay. Should have been a programmer!
Not in a RTW state.
RTW gives employers authority to hire and fire at will.
Gives employee's the right to accept and quit at will.
Perhaps you need to bone up on all the intricacies of a RTW state. I live in one and administered the law in one.
Actually American Girl..depends where you live. In California where you live, you are correct. In RTW states like Texas (where I am), you can be fired for almsot any reason that is not a federal discrimination case. Yes, I can fire you for not liking your shoes.
That alone is a good reason to Unionize. Stop the tyranny of the boss.
Oh, and political money spent by business is 17 times more than the money spent by Unions.
And who keep the unions in check ? I know how they look and smell because I'm a former member...
miklkit ....
No kidding! Can we all say Adelson? Koch? GOP'rs STOP trying to demonize unions and making them a political statement. They exist for a reason and yes, everything can become corrupt, but not all. I read newspapers and don't think all are BAD because of Rupert Murdoch! Open your eyes people and STOP generalizing!
in texas, don't they have alot of part time jobs with none or very few benefits? & now they can fire just because they don't like my shoes. Glad I don't live there.
Do you really think that corporations are going to treat their employees good, if they don't have to?
Layton,
Demonize unions? The same unions that trashed the statehouse in Wisconsin and left a mess behind? Or do you mean the union that proved to be the demise Hostess? All this legislation does is allow people to have a CHOICE in whether or not they want to contribute to a union. Nothing more, nothing less. What is the union so afraid of? If the people feel that the union is doing a great job representing them, then wouldn't they want to continue to contribute? The reason the union is so upset with this legislation is because it takes away the control they have over their rank and file membership. They know full well that given the choice most of its members wouldn't pay a dime to the union, simply because they know better than anyone how corrupt their leaders are... Don't blame politics on this one, blame the union leadership. They are the ones that made a mess and created a atmosphere of distrust among its members...now they are living with the consequences...
Best thing that could ever happen - Could never figure out why the Unions would back Obama since he thinks the government can take care of everyone to the point no one needs to work much less belong to a union.
Why do you waste everyone's time with fictions like this?
Obama thinks that? How do you know?
Best thing that could ever happen to who?
The only "right' in "right to work" is "right wing." Period.
No kidding, Rational! My boss actually told me that because the President won re-election, his costs were going to go up and because I voted for him, I should take that into consideration when asking for a raise. My State is totally red .... EVERY county came back for Romney but my vote apparently cost me something.
Layton if I were your boss and I saw an Obama sticker on your car your work issues would be over at that company. And I will bet money that it is happening now all across the country.
Teaching, thank you.
I'm sure it is as well and what does that say about us as a nation? SAD!
Layton
I think it says that the people who actually work for a living are tired of feeding all the freeloaders. Time to pay the rent!
This afternoon while driving home from work, I heard the host of some wingnut talk show make a riotous assertion: That the Michigan "right" to work law would allow employees to make more money because they would be free to negotiate individually with their employer -- as if that would really happen! Somehow, phantom individual bargaining will result in greater earnings for workers than actual collective bargaining. Go figure.
Totally agree.
Employees, in a capitalist economy, can only negotiate well when there is not another prospective employee outside the door willing to work for less.
Companies don't love you. They don't respect that you're faithful. You are a commodity. And that's all you are.
And gee monkey, what do the employees of this nation see companies as? Why a PAYCHECK of course. They don't care about the companies and whether they are BANKRUPTING them. What do employees of the government see those governments as? Why a PAYCHECK for course. They don't care what it costs the taxpayers to get them their checks, their pensions, and their Cadillac health care plans, they just want them.
People don't love companies or governments. They don't stay loyal to companies, they stay loyal to the almighty DOLLAR and what it gets THEM. They don't respect what companies do for them, whether it be good pay, a decent pension, or a good health care plan, they just want MORE, even if it BANKRUPTS the company or government. They are just money, a pension, and health care insurance. And that's all they are, a piggy bank for the employees.
Look at Hostess and the "loyalty" of the UNIONS with them. They pushed the company into closing their doors. Look at Caterpillar a few years ago, the UNIONS were told that their demands could not be met and that they would have to concede SOMETHING for the plant to AFFORD stay open. The UNIONS went on strike. And Caterpillar closed the plant and now they are manufacturing in CHINA.
Look at states like California, who despite handing out massive tax dollars in pay, pensions, and health care, to the point of bankruptcy, STILL have to fight with the unions because it's still not enough!!!!
If employees are bankrupting the company because they are (and can) demand more pay (aka, software designer, high-end attorneys), then the company's business model is a failure and the company SHOULD go bankrupt. You can't have capitalism where companies don't suffer from bad decisions.
My point is that employees used to be seen as assets and loyalty was a two-way street. For example, that dedication built HP into a company with over 80 billion in marketshare. The current strategy of cutting workers who reach retirement age or who reach the top end of their pay scale, regardless of employee activity, has cost the company billions in new successful research and cut their marketshare in half.
You do realize that HP's entire inkjet line came because an employee worked weekends on his own time because he was committed to HP's vision. That was good business and that represented an $8 billion upgrade to HP's bottom line.
Treating your good employees great is simply good business.
"...They pushed the company into closing their doors."
And, in the process, PUSHED those execs into taking big ol' bonuses or parachutes.
Sheee-it, Cheryl. WTF?
@Monkey - "If employees are bankrupting the company because they are (and can) demand more pay (aka, software designer, high-end attorneys), then the company's business model is a failure and the company SHOULD go bankrupt. You can't have capitalism where companies don't suffer from bad decisions."
Do the Corporate names of General Motors, Chrysler, Delta Airlines, United Airlines, American Airlines, et. al., mean anything to you? All heavily laden union companies, with large qty's of union employees and massive pension debts, all struggled / struggling to stay alive in a competitve global economy.
pkgoode ...
Switch to NPR, a little more soothing a lot less biased! Just my $.02. :)
Russ lots of numbers, so what your saying is the executives of those businesses are complete inept idiots and those businesses should of gone out of business because the CEO's offered contracts to unions they knew they would never be able to afford??? Blaming employees for managements stupidity is laughable at best and is totally flawed. Nice try and thanks for playing, there will be some nice parting gifts for you at the door.
Only 6% of Michiganders are in favor of this union busting law. 2014 can't come soon enough.
If you are not siding with workers of the unions, you are siding with The Kochs, obscenely rich people using their money to influence the lives of everyone to their own benefit.
Guess all those anti-union people want us to go back to no holidays, no health insurance, no overtime pay, no weekends off, child labor, employers can fire you just because they don't like you, or corporations that can threaten you if you don't do as they say (like those that told their employees would be laid off if President Obama was re-elected).
Unions fought for all those things and more. Do unions need to do some housecleaning, yes, do unions need to revise some of their rules, yes....but we need unions to fight for the average worker.
And don't tell me that there are laws in place for protect workers....laws can be changed as we have seen.
Yeah, yeah, let the fearmongering begin.
How about having crap like what happened at Chrysler, where 13 UNION members were suddenly given their jobs back, despite being fired for getting DRUNK and HIGH during their lunch breaks, people that actually want to work PROFESSIONALLY be given those jobs by Chrysler?
How about instead of unions bankrupting the states and companies all across this nation, people be paid for WHAT THEY DO, and not because someone goes in and either extorts money by threatening to destroy the company (Hostess), or having a bunch of Democrats BUY their support with taxpayer money and bankrupting the states and local governments (like California and Stockton for example).
It's one thing to BARGAIN, it's another to present "DEMANDS" and then either walk out without any real compromises or negotiations, or to be so GREEDY that you actually don't care that you are going to bankrupt the companies and governments.
cheryl: And corporations don't demand things of their employees????
And you are citing 13 union workers, when there are millions of them? So you know of no private sector non-union people who get drunk or stoned on the job....really????
It is not unions who are bankrupting companies....look at Hostess, claimed they were bankrupted because of unions, then wanted to pay their upper management millions in bonuses!
TO: CherylLM who wrote:
WTF are you talking about? Unions are private organizations.
The only "public" unions are like state workers and teachers, jobs for companies that need government money in order to function, like schools.
But like cashier's unions are private, and construction workers, etc., belong to private unions who pool their money and their resources and manage to protect workers AND provide their workers with some kind of retirement pension, which is similar to social security, only more "secure".
TO: Dragon-1573721 who wrote:
I heard on the news that Hostess went out of business because they were pissed that Obama got re-elected and didn't want to provide their employees with health care, so they 86'd themselves and retired to the crapper.
Yes, you're right, they wanted to divide all that cash on hand between the executives and then did a "Mitt Romney" (filed bankruptcy) to cover any money they owed.
It's not cost-effective for ANY COMPANY to provide employees health care, you know why - because those same employees ABUSE IT and rack up high dollar amounts in health care that an average employer cannot afford.
Case in point - when I was HR Manager for a GM plant, we had 400 workers, but yet had 1.5 million - YES I SAID MILLION in one year in health care costs. Absolutely ridiculous for 400 workers and their families.
But not ridiculous when you count that they go to the ER for a stubbed toe; have to get stomach pumped after they OD on illegal drugs, popping out babies like they are mints, and all on the companies dime.
And people wonder why MORE don't offer health care - it's because of YOU that they don't. Americans are well versed on taking advantage of everything that is given them - EVERYTHING.
Companies cannot stay afloat with the greedy, money-hungry employees trying to leech them out of every dime they own.
I worked in it, with it and have seen it personally - it DOES HAPPEN and not just where I worked.
TO: Kimbo47 who wrote:
Hold on. First of all the employer pays a portion of the premium, the employer DOES NOT pay the doctor bill, the insurance company pays that.
I don't know ANYBODY who likes to go to the doctor enough to "abuse" their health care.
If you were HR Manager for a GM Plant, you were most likely a union member, but it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about.
As for popping out babies, you must be the first person I've heard complain about unions that wasn't also "pro-life"!
Kimbo47: I am an employer and health care costs are not my employee's fault. It's the fault of flagrant abuses by hospitals and doctors to not correctly treat and insurance companies and lawyers that take advantage of a very corrupt system.
In Japan, people are shocked that Americans go bankrupt because they get cancer. Over there, medical care is not for profit and their citizens are very healthy compared to us.
Make Americans should take stock.
And kudos American Girl-724855. I'll have to remember the "pro life" jab. Brilliant.
American Girl ...
I posted earlier on a different article about unions and someone turned it around to abortions as well. Regarding Hostess, the union workers actually worked WITH the company to try and find a way to stay in business. They gave up their pensions to restructure and when Hostess went bankrupt, the judge stated the pensions were a loan to the company and didn't need to be paid back. Also, the last offer was a 20% reduction in wages over the next five years AFTER they had just taken an 8% reduction in pay. The union tried to work with the company but Hostess failed their works dismally.
AmericanGirl,
I was MANAGEMENT, hence the title HR. Management are NOT PART OF THE UNION.
Which you would know, if you knew anything about UNION plants and management - I do.
And each company has their health care structured differently. Costs to our company exceeded 1.5 million in one year.
And I'm not union, don't agree with unions, think they have had their day in the sun and need to go away.
I TOTALLY support RTW legislation and think there should be National RTW laws as another poster indicated.
And I'm not pro-life. I'm pro-choice--my body, my business.
It is interesting that over 40% of all the coal mined in the USA comes from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming. There is not one union mine in the basin and the miners make in the range of $80,000 and up with great health insurance, lots of time off and lots of other benefits. Wyoming is a right to work state.
hww, they should offer you great benefits. Coal mining is one dirty and unhealthy job. Unions are not encouraged in Wyoming as it is a RTW state. My cousin lives in Wyoming and I do appreciate her input when it comes to issues there. How is your life insurance package?
Oh it is not so bad. All the mines are surface and the equipment is air conditioned and heated so it is quite comfortable. The workers are quite happy with what they have. I don't believe that they need any more life insurance than anyone else, I know quite a few that have retired after 30+ years and now are in their 80's and having a great time living on their retirement benefits.
@Kimbo47 -
Careful what you wish for... I live in Delaware and it's a RTW state. Companies can fire you just because they don't like what you wear one day. Granted, they also have to pay you un-employment. Which, isn't enough to survive on, but it's the price you pay. Also, I have seen wages continually go down, reduction of staff, and benefits continually go away. All the while, making employees work longer hours for less wages. The bottom line is companies do not care about employees, just their bottom line. I am not gungho for Unions but, we still have a need for them in todays society. Granted they really need to re-define their business ethics. If not for unions, who would be looking out for the worker? And please don't say FLSA or the Department of Labor. Everyone knows it's a joke and companies pay those labor laws no mind at all. IMO it's just another way for companies to legally get away with paying employees next to nothing and force them to work longer and harder.
This is NOT a "blow to labor", this is just to stop unions from extorting money from people that should have a RIGHT to work without having to join a union, or being FORCED to pay a union just to have a job.
My husband went through this once. All he wanted was a JOB, period. And even though it was NOT a union job where he worked, he was threatened with physical violence and even death just because he wouldn't join the union and pay them 4 hours a week of what HE earned and what the union had NOTHING to do with.
It's DISGUSTING that to simply WORK in this nation that you can be forced to join a union you don't want to join, and pay "dues" to the unions that use that money NOT for the member's pensions or health care, but instead to buy political influence and for the union "leadership" to live first class lifestyles on the BACKS of the people doing the work.
TO: CherylLM who wrote:
They say there's one born everyday.
No one is EVER forced to join any union, but the ones who do join are always better off than the ones who don't.
TO: CherylLM who wrote:
Did you call the cops, because that ain't no "union" and that's NOT how unions operate.
If you didn't call the cops maybe he was just making excuses for missing a portion of his paycheck.
Sounds like somebody might be watching too many crime dramas on TV.
Hey American Girl-724855 yeah this reality speaking, yes actually some unions do work that way. Most of the rank and file people are good people but honestly most of the upper guys are thugs. All they really care about are their paychecks and their power, most of the little people in the unions don't actually get a say just an illusion that their opinion matters. I say this from my own personal experience, my husbands union usually told the guys they couldn't help them, they needed to pay their dues and well if the union decided to strike they really had no choice in the matter. I don't know maybe you've never actually experienced a union or you are one the thugs in charge.
I don't believe AmericanGirl is actually from America.
She lives in some type of dream world where there are fairies and magic wands.
Unfortunately the rest of us live in the real world and see what unions actually do.
But, then again, a union troll is NEVER going to see what is right in front of their face.
The last time I walked a picket line there was only one fatality. A picketer was run over and killed by an 18 wheeler driven by a strike breaker from Louisiana.
It is the non Union thugs that are causing the troubles.
LOL - You both are right. If you don't join the union then you don't get the job in a lot of instances. And yes, there are unions out there that are nothing but a waste of workers pay and they get absolutely nothing in return for paying their dues. However, there are some good unions out there that actually work for the employees and do what they can for the betterment of their members.
When you pay a UAW worker almost $74 per hour (wage + benefits) its no wonder GM has trouble making cars people want to buy. In order to be competitive, you have to cut corners on materials and quality because your labor costs are so high. Ask the BMW workers in SC how they like their jobs? The love it!!!!! No inflexible work rules, competitive wages. Unions are responsible for alot of jobs going out of state and country. Its a global economy and the company that puts out a quality product at the lowest cost stays in business.
Factcheck.org squashed that conservative nonsense years ago:
Q: Do auto workers really make more than $70 per hour?
A: No. That figure is derived from what the auto companies pay in wages, health, retirement and other benefits, and includes the cost of providing benefits to retirees.
The automakers arrived at the $70+ figure by adding up all the costs associated with providing wages and benefits to current and retired workers and dividing the total by the number of hours worked by current employees.
Labor Costs Aren’t the Same as Wages Earned
The result is the per-hour labor cost to the automakers, which is very different from "pay" or "wages" or even "wages and benefits" earned by their workers. As David Leonhardt pointed out in the New York Times (countering, in a sense, the earlier piece by Sorkin), the average GM, Ford and Chrysler worker receives compensation – wages, bonuses, overtime and paid time off – of about $40 an hour. Add in benefits such as health insurance and pensions and you get to about $55. Another $15 or so in benefits to retirees (known as "legacy costs") brings the number to roughly $70.
If your employer pays for your health care do you not think that is part of your salary, or if they contribute to your 401K is that not part of your salary?
So, what do you suggest, Jerry? No matching contribution? No health care benefits?
I'm all for that monkey....this "worker" crap is unreal. You want worker "rights" open your own biz and take the risk. Oh right ...you not edjumacated for dat, are youse? Try eastern europe then...
RIGHT TO WORK!!!
United we bargain, divided we beg.
Right to work for less.
Non union companies have 53% more accidents than Union companies. When you get hurt on the job will your company continue to pay you, or will they fire you and hire another warm body?
Realitty Check ...
Apparently, you're not educated much and should seriously reconsider prior to calling others out.
Reality Check-1104333: I did and I pay people a good wage to ensure the best stay put. It's good business.
I work for a company that has given me a raise at every performance review, has given me a share of the profits every year and is very understanding when my personal life comes in conflict with my work schedule. All this from a non-union shop in a right-to-work state. I actually work for my pay as opposed to some union bozos that get paid to sit around and do nothing. Unions had a purpose and a place at one point in time. That time has passed.
So in your estimation every union worker is a slug.
TO: Jonathan Reid-1158169 who wrote:
HEY, I work for my money too, and just because you're being treated fairly doesn't mean you need to try to stop other folks from doing what's necessary to be treated fairly too!
In my experiencing, working in a UAW plant for 4 years....MOST ARE!!
We're not talking on your back AG.
What suckers you righties are, what cowards you are. "Ooo, we can't fight the rich, they're too powerful. We better just work for what they'll pay us or they'll outsource ALL the jobs, THEN what will we do?" What a pack of pathetic pussies you are. These scumbags weren't happy with incredibly low [yes dumbasses, LOW] effective tax, stagnant wages and an entire major political party as their handmaidens, oh no, their incredible greed led them to take jobs from the hard-working American people who MADE them rich and outsource to countries where they could use child and slave labor! You lilly livered little pukes cower in the corner clutching your guns afraid that the liberals are going to take your guns away leaving you COMPLETLEY impotent, while supporting this gang of corporate thugs who REALLY ARE out to destroy the American way of life. You righties are too pathetic for words. Get a brain...and a backbone!
What suckers YOU lefties are. We apparently can't get good pay without a union to "make demands" for us. We can't get a pay raise without the union getting the pay raise for us. We apparently just can't find a good paying job, with good benefits without that union of course doing it for us. We can't make a dime based on HARD WORK, or achievement. Nope, we've got to have the UNIONS do it all for us, right?
Why don't you take a look at the FACTS? Out of the approximately NINETY MILLION middle class employees in this nation, ONLY about 14% of them are union. And those union members actually LOSE in the end because they have to actually pay the unions for the "right" to work, or they LOSE THEIR JOBS! Meanwhile the rest make just as much, if not more, based on their willingness to WORK for it, to actually PERFORM.
But you'd rather have people like those 13 drunks and dopers that got their jobs back at Chrysler actually building the car that you trust will keep you ALIVE instead of someone with some PERSONAL RESPOSIBILITY, wouldn't you?
People like YOU are the thugs who are out to destroy the Americans way of life. Because the American way of life is NOT based on UNIONS genius. It's based on personal responsiblity, a willingness to WORK and work hard, and not have some thieves like the AFL-CIO President and "business managers" tell us how they are "fighting" for us as they live like royalty on the BACKS of the workers.
People like you are beyond too pathetic for words, because you don't want a brain or a backbone. You just want someone else to do everything for you!
cheryl: So only 14% of 90 million workers are union....then how come the GOP rants about how unions are ruining the economy, how unions are bankrupting companies....your own facts prove that to be incorrect.
If only 14% of 90 million workers are union, then why is the GOP so scared of them?
" Nope, we've got to have the UNIONS do it all for us, right?"
Nope, Cheryl. All we have to do is seize the means of production, and..............send 'em to China so we can have even MORE!
Nice deal, huh? I bet you are juicing up over the very thought of it.
Cheryl: Do some research and look up Paul Volcker's activities during the late 70s as Fed Chief and then his activities behind Reagan to fire the traffic controllers in the 80s. The whole idea of raising interest rates to 20% was a union busting tactic because unions were seen as drawing too many profits from business and drawing too much money into foreign banks.
Unions fell to 14% of employed because government and every major corporation has targeted employee interests and unions. This was very much a concerted and powerful force against unions, so please don't act surprised that only 14% remain.
Dragon,
You have to separate private sector and public sector unions. It is my belief that if a company offers to pay somebody then they have to live with it, but in the public sector if they campaign for a candidate and then the elected politician gives them pay and benefits that are above the average for the work done they there is a problem.
If you look at some of the public sector plans they are crazy and bankrupting the states, and cities.
Here here .
As the number of Union workers has declined, so has the income of everyone. there is a very close relationship between Unions and income. What is your time and labor worth?
GRAPH: As Union Membership Has Declined, Income Inequality Has Skyrocketed In The United States | ThinkProgress
The quality of life in America has been reduced, over the years, in exact proportion to the reduction of union members. Remember that when you complain about the trajectory of quality of life.
Unions today have grown far too powerful and have gone too far in what they demand. Instead of fighting for wages, hours, and working conditions, they demand the most money they can get and the best working conditions, to the point where it's unreasonable. Often, Union's succeed in getting their workers significantly higher pay, to the degree that higher labor costs are subsequently reflected in higher product prices, wage increases will be transitory in real terms, disappearing as inflation eats into them. For example, in Michigan there is a massive automotive industry.Unions were able to get very high wages for workers whose jobs required little skill, had little risk, and were not laborious at all. The problem this creates is multi-faceted. Those with little experience or education, i.e. general laborers, are making as much or close too those with experience and education, i.e. special laborers. Since unions have demanded higher and higher salaries and more expensive benefits, the cost to pay those who are special labor, (as opposed to general labor) becomes enormously high; this demand for such high pay results in the company sending the work overseas. Often the benefits of unions are what make them so attractive and appeal to people who aren't in them, but the reality is they damage the economy (like sending work overseas) and have a significant political, local and national.
The pay of a job is generally defined by what you do, your experience, your education, and potential risk. Why does a person who does very little at a job that requires little skill (no specialized training, i.e. college degree, trade school, etc…) and has little risk deserve a large amount of money? Or, why should a union worker make so much more than a non-union worker? Should a worker at a company who does entry level work, i.e. watches an assembly line make $20 an hour?
The chief reason I disagree with present day unions is the power such a minority has. Though there are many unions, small unions, that maintain a balance, the big ones have great power. During the 50's, 60's and 70's private union workers consisted of 40% of the work force thus giving them a say in the economy. Today, the official 2010 statistic (most recent) of workers in a private union is 6.7%, giving a minority great power, as seen nearly every election. Interestingly enough, most unions themselves are businesses; they have all the hallmarks and even employees. Unions mainly benefit those who are in them. Furthermore, generally speaking, they have a monopolizing power over their employer. If union workers don't get their way they just go on strike until they get what they want or something more than they already have; too much power in the hands of too few people. Every election you can see the political influence of the unions. Unions also have massive lobbying power (generally speaking) and often make it too difficult to fire someone who should legitimately
be fired.
When asked what organized labor wanted, Samuel Gompers (who became the first head of the AFL in 1886) replied "More". This remains the essential purpose of labor unions to this day: to get "more" Unions are hard-wired to press for "more" as long there is "more" to get, even in the short run.
"The purpose of a union is to extract from its employer more than the market wage. If it doesn't do this, then there is no reason for workers to support it or to pay dues to it. Because companies must sell their output at market prices and pay market returns for the capital that they employ, they cannot afford to pay more than "market" for any major input. Accordingly, any unionized company for which labor is a significant part of its cost structure will eventually be destroyed… Unions are in a difficult position today. They exist to get "more", but they can only get more if someone else can be forced to take less. As economies have globalized, capital has become increasingly mobile, making it impossible for unions to extract "more" from business owners…. As a practical matter, this means that unions need the government to use its power to force people to pay above-market prices via taxes and/or trade barriers."
This destroys companies and forces the unions to rely on the government. Today, the majority of
businesses in the United States, their workers, through constitutional, federal, and state laws, have sufficient rights. I agree with what labor unions stood for decades ago and with what some do, education, training, working conditions, and wages, but I think many, especially the big ones, have gone too far by demanding too much.
Granted, this is merely a brief look at unions and not even focused on the concept of an individual's right to choose whether or not to be in a union.
Next thing, the GOP will pass a law making it a crime for workers to protest for a living wage.
In all of my 55 years I've never known anyone who was either forced to join a union or work in a union shop. You were free to leave at anytime.
IaintdrunkImjustdrinkin
"In all of my 55 years I've never known anyone who was either forced to join a union or work in a union shop. You were free to leave at anytime."
To get hired at many places you have NO CHOICE about joining a union,so yes,it IS FORCED.
Forced to join the union just to get the job,forced to pay union dues just to keep the job.
That is bullsh*t,NO ONE should be forced to give up a percentage of their pay just to get a job,or to keep a job!
If any of you need a place to do buisiness. Come to my town. Its in the middle of Missouri on Interstate 44. Low taxes, cheap vacant manufacturing facilities, and a deep predispositioned anti union setiment. Folks here are happy with $8.50 an hour and they vote no on the union every time. They just did Friday. Check the local paper. www.lebanondailyrecord.com. You would think that would bring in jobs, but there is still a large unemployment rate in the county.
Wow Dean, a whole $8.50 an hour. I was making that in 1977.
And look at your monniker, drunk on the job and the union got you hired back, huh?
If he was making that much in 1977 he is probably retired by now and kicking back on a beach under a palm tree.
In 1986 an non Union company came in and rebuilt a local steel mill. A local newspaper interviewed an electrician working there. He was from Louisiana and was staying at a trailer park with his family. He was making $7.35 an hour, and he qualified for welfare and food stamps. That non Union company cost our local economy money in welfare alone. They were just like Walmart is now.
GRAPH: As Union Membership Has Declined, Income Inequality Has Skyrocketed In The United States | ThinkProgress
@ Kimbo:
Let me get this straight. So a guy cleaning bathrooms doesn't "deserve" $21 an hour...but a CEO deserves 400 times his employees' annual salaries for doing...what, exactly? Playing golf? Traveling around on the company jet with a pack of prostitutes in tow, gobbling up the corporate welfare? And then moving YOUR money to offshore tax havens?
And then they laugh at you for being stupid enough to vote against your own best interest. You're an indentured servant and don't even know it.
What's wrong with higher wages and better health care and a pension to boot. Isn't that what we would want for all Americans. I was union for 27 years and I did.
It's called FAIR.
And it's not FAIR to pay an unskilled janitor $21 an hour.
And the fact that you think it is, says a lot...
Kimbo ...
Iaint posted at 5:11 pm MST .... you posted at 6:06 pm MST ... I don't think Iain't said anything about unskilled janitors.
But, speaking of that, how can a janitor be unskilled? You're pissed over their pay but do YOU want that job? Would you take it? I've friends who ARE janitors and work at night and clean up more things than you can imagine. Personally, they really deserve their pay. More so if you work in some cush office and come in every day with your trash emptied and floors clean and vacuumed. Those type of workers allow those that work in those offices to not worry about things and have a fresh start daily. I applaud them just as I do every person that works a job that I couldn't handle. Diversity is a good thing.
Company makes thingamajigs for decent price and sells to people for $5.00. Union comes and decides that unskilled worker who screws one piece to another piece is not getting enough money and needs 10 paid holidays and 2 week paid vacation and 2 weeks paid sick and paid health care and salary increase to $25/hour.
Company concedes and then must now sell thing-a-majig for $15.
People who want to buy thing-a-majig now learn their cost of living has gone up...not because item is worth more or better made or larger or will last longer...it just costs more to make.
Now there is your lesson in economics. Next week we will discuss how unskilled worker becomes unemployed because his company closes shop in America and moves to 3rd World company....Company still sells for $15 but has cut costs in half.
Btw, I paid ino my pension which was matched by my employer, no different than a 401k except that as a collective we possessed more bargaining and investment power than an individual.
My daughter works very hard at a bank in Columbus the last 5 years her total raise has been .36 cents !!! that's .07 a year and continues to be one of there top tellers.
That's easy, tell her to fill out her resume and look for a different job. Free country no one makes her stay.
Tell her to bargain for a raise. Bet she gets fired and replaced by someone willing to work for less.
United we bargain, divided we beg.
So anti-union folks....when your house is on fire, or you were robbed, you don't want the nasty union firefighters or police to help you....right?
Or when you are in the hospital, you don't want some union nurse working on you, right?
You rail against unions but are more than willing to use the services of a union person when you need to....just like Cristie when Sandy hit....he ranted about the government....but when he needed federal money he sure was quick to ask for it.
Repubs.....two-faced moochers.
I pay for those services in the taxes I pay for my house each year and fees added to my water bill for fire service, etc.
So I'm not getting them for free and neither are you.
Excellent, Dragon-1573721 (#24)!
It's too bad the Conservatives don't see and understand that. You're 100% correct.
And Howdidwegethere (#23.1): Obviously you don't "get it" and never will.
@kimbo47....
So you are paying those Policeman, Fire Fighters, Nurses 2 cents of your taxes and you want them to die for you!!! I hope nobody helps you in time of need!!!
Most nurses are not union, in fact you might have noticed that obama stopped lumping us in with the "teachers, police and firefighter" lines he so often uses when demanding more taxpayer dollars for "jobs". While there are nurses unions the numbers of nurses in unions is small relative to the number of nurses.
It's also true that nurses strike because of safety issues such as forced overtime and too high a patient load not over pay. Nurses in California have had to strike in the past because they weren't allowed to leave when the next shift's nurse called in sick or there weren't enough scheduled. That's dangerous, when people are tired mistakes can be made and a simple mistake in nursing can cost a life. That's what nurses strike over.
Since I do live and work in Texas I can give everyone first hand experience. Right To Work Laws are anything but to guarantee your right to work. Unless it is the right to work for less. Texas is a proud state, and everyong in the State gov. ought to be proud of these great truths of Texas:
Texas is number one in the nation for having the most minimum wage jobs.
Texas is sometimes number one in the most incarcerated citizens in the world.
Texas has the most citizens without health insurance.
Is number 2-6 in having the most Illegal Aliens, not undocumented workers as some people call them. They are undocumented because they came here Illegally, breaking the law, not once, not twice, but three times, in order to work(Illegal Entry, and 2 fake IDs so they can work).
Texas is 47th in education.
Now those things are really something to make The State Legislators proud. Wat a joke. All of that ought to be a Shame to every politician in Texas. That is what you will get from a "Right To Work" State. The biggest shame is that the people in politics such as Congress are paid over 100,000 dollars per year and only work 158 days or less, and receive great benefits, then turn around and pass laws to cheat the ones that elect them from having a livable wage with benefits. Most people would love recieving over 100,000 per year for working only 158, or less, days. Want to cut spending? Stop starting uncessary(and unfunded) wars(WMD's what a joke), Take away the pay for holding public office, like it was long ago, raise taxes on the top 2%(they can afford it), cut CEO and Board salaries down to 300 times the hourly worker of their company(instead of 1500 to 3000 times)giving the hourly worker a pay raise, then come talk to the american citizens about entitlements.
Yes, I would rather have a non-union competent employee working on/for me. One that got there because of training and education and not because they were next in the Union line.
Can anyone explain why those UAW workers who were fired for tokin' and drinkin' during lunch got their jobs back? Would you buy a Jeep that they built? Used to be don't buy a car made on Friday or Monday. Now it's don't buy a car made after lunch!
Glad I bought my Jeep Comanche in 1987!! Those were the days that people took PRIDE in their work and the product they made!
Slodon, I certainly don't condone the workers action I don't believe you think only union workers have ever drank on the job.
Nope, but THEY ARE the only ones that know they will probably get their jobs back and will be repeat offenders.
@Kimbo47 Oh BS Kimbo47! That is just some crap you have cooked up in your brain! Actually any person (whether union or non-union) caught drinking or drugging on the job won't get fired if they go for help and sign a contract with that company! If either violates that contract they are fired! All this talk of bad people being protected by the union is just folk tales! No matter how bad the worker, both union and non-union companies have a set of rules and when the bad employee breaks those rules... they are fired period! All people have things happen in their lives that makes them "less" of an employee than they normally are so that is why people should be given a few chances! This crap that I hear of bad eggs being saved by the union is just not true! Find a better argument!)
I can tell you! Those people have a chance just like ANYONE has if they have a drinking or drug problem! It's the Law m/o ron! People working at a Non-Union company would have had the same opportunity to get help and then sign an agreement with the company! Try finding another argument...this one is for 2nd graders! I bet if you had the choice between $10hr non-union versus $20hr union....you would gladly pay those union dues!
Funny how people who this bill won't even effect, get the right to vote on it! There are so many people who life has been good to! They have been lucky enough to work the job of their dreams and get good pay to do it! Now these same people get to vote on the life of some guy who's parents beat him, he had to quit school and get a job, keeping him from finding his dream! Yep these people who had it made from the start get to decide whether this guy has to take on a second job just to keep a roof over his baby sisters head!
All you people, with your noses in the air, need to stop for a second and walk a mile in someone else's shoes! Ever see that show where the boss goes under cover? Notice how the boss is always blown away by the crap his employees do for him and the hardships they have? Well my friends...that is life! Not everyone has life treat them so good and now you want to take away from these types of people! This just proves how the rich treat the poor and what happens when we leave it in their hands! Union, Union, Union!
Unions have helped workers to feel at home at the workplace, help workers love the work they do, help workers participate in decision making. If workers are proud of their workplace and feel needed and involved, their productivity is higher.
1
Corporations just want absolute power, like kings of past. Unions have been a counterweight to that. But what happened? Republicans represent corporations, not people, and helped give even more powers to corporations by cutting union power. Corporate lobbyists have delivered tons of corporate welfare that has drained state and federal coffers. Corporate profits sometimes are not the result of innovation and hard work, but government subsidies and giveaways.
Pig:
Absolute power and kings. I didn't realize this article was talking about Obama.
We need FEDERAL legislation making it illegal to cross picket lines when there is a strike and FEDERAL closed shop legislation. And for those fascists that would say that that would be an overreach, Romney was ptoposing federal right to work laws so this wouldn't be any biggerof one than that!!! We also need a law making hireing scabs and brining in union busters illegal. These groups are a threat to the American way of life and freedom. They are unamerican economic terrorists!!!!
"All this talk of bad people being protected by the union is just folk tales!"
Bullsh*t-saw it in person at the Chrysler stamping plant in Twinsburg,Ohio back in the late 70's/early 80's, at Northfield Park harness racing track in Northfield,Ohio, Thistledown thoroughbred horse racing track in North Randall,Ohio,Maywood horse track in Chicago- (maybe a suburb-been a while,not sure)-Cahokia horse track in Illinios,River Downs horse track in Cincinatti,Ohio, and at the Coca-Cola bottling plant in Twinsburg Ohio.
That enough real-world examples for you?
I worked at all those places,and personally saw the unions protect drunks,drug addicts, who showed up drunk or stoned,or drank/did dope during their shifts,people who slept on the job,clocked in and left,people who stole from the companies.
(All of the horse tracks were operated by the same company,Coca-Cola was a seasonal job,just worked it as extra help they hired yearly for the money.)
Just like the two parties, neither is perfect. But the two party competition system has worked well.
Unions are not perfect, but unions have served the purpose of combatting corporate greed and corporate excesses. That's enough. No need to use a few extreme anecdotal cases to discredit the usefulness of unions as part of American democratic system of checks and balances. How about too many of the extreme cases of corporate corruption - why don't use such cases to totally discredit corporations? Are we in the worst recession since the 1930s or not, then can we use it to totally undermine corporations? No, on the contrary, the taxpayers actually bailed out the misbehaving corporations, such as AIG. BTW, government has just sold all its shares of AIG after the bailout.
Why has it become the goal of every democrat in this country to wage war on every buisness and small buisness. Its time for the unions to go. They have no use anymore except to strangle the companies that employee them. If you need recent proof of that ... remember twinkie... bye bye Hoosier! Thank the unions for that one. So let me get this straight..a pay cut is worse than no jobs at all !?!? Amazing...
First key point to cover... companies in this country are not the enemy but in fact the savior. The more people working means less people collecting unemployment, so thats less money payed out to unemployed and more revenue from taxes. Thats called a win win... a double positive... kinda a real key point.
With that said...
Companies are in buisness to make money. They need money to survive. They need money to pay their employee's and pay their taxes. Do you have any idea how over extended a company like Boing has to go to produce a new plane. There's a huge amount of risk there. Everyone's got their necks on the line. Did the unions in Washington State care, hell no they want their cut. So guess what bye bye Washington State... hello Charleston SC. Good job union guys way to stick it to em!
Second point... bailouts are wrong! Too big to fail is the biggest crock of @#$%! We live in a capitalist free enterprise country, so when the big fish dies... the little fish get alot more to eat and become big fish themselves! Hell can I make it any more basic than that! So the government picking and choosing which companies live and die is the biggest crock and soo political. Remember what the first thing Obama did when he got into office, I do... He jumped in and gave a ton of money to GM Automotive. A company that was well on its way to a restructuring Bankruptcy. What does that mean? Ask Ford, they did it just two years prior and they survived without a bailout. How amazing! The big key is that if GM would of restructured under that bankruptcy the contract with the unions would of been void, and GM could finally be out from under that strangle hold. Hey but you gotta get those union votes in Michigan and Ohio right? And dont get me started on Solyndra, a big flop and ran by some of your biggest contributors Mr President.. hmm. All that aside, the government is not here to run buisnesses, its here to govern.
Let the wheels of capitalism run and you'll find that it always works itself out. Well I mean if you stop overtaxing, under tarriffing, over regulating and basically scaring every major company in this country to China, Mexico or pretty much anywhere but here!