Alaska Girl---imagine that your life's goal is to become Speaker of the House and you achieve it, only to be Speaker of the most ineffective Congress in decades, one with an approval rating of 13%. It would be enough to drive a person to drink......or a tanning booth!

Off the cliff... I wanna see those rich bastards taxes go up. I wanna see the Bush era raid on the treasury stomped into the dust. Don't give the GOP nothing!!!

Steeler,HaHa! Yeah, I have a feeling his job is not all that he thought it would be! I would imagine he drinks in the tanning booth! May as well kill two birds with one tumbler!

How can Boehner lead anything or get anything done when he is in the tanning booth at 1 in the afternoon and then in the bars getting drunk at 3.

These Congressmen are weak, lame, and have no ideas other than to dig their heels in and say no. You said it Allen. The article gives us the opinion of the Heritage Foundation and the Koch brothers and tells us they disagree with Obama. What else is new? And might I add nobody elected either of those scummy entities to any position of power, so who gives an F what they think. They don't get to be part of the process.

The best part is these do-nothings have no room to negotiate. None. The polls are clear they will be blamed if we do go over the cliff. It's actually kind of a good thing because they lose their 1% tax breaks anyway. And since we all know these doofuses are incapable of compromising a hair's breadth..... off the cliff we go.

Hopefully, this far right republican cult will stop at nothing, even though the are on the wrong side. Oh well their days are numbered. The last election proved that we are a Progressive Nation that is moving Forward.

Let me first say I am a conservative in favor of tax rate increases... You might try to pigeon-hole me because I identify as 'conservative', but I jump to both sides of the aisle if it makes sense for all Americans!

Increasing taxes only temporarily puts a bandage on the wound. What we need for long term & sustained stability is to close / eliminate the loopholes that are taken advantage of by those of means.

Look, if you raise taxes in one area, the wealthy will just reallocate their funds to where they see a greater return - PERIOD. The only way to win is to close the loopholes.

Close the loopholes. Return tax rates (NOT AN INCREASE) to the rates of 2001 for the wealthiest. Address entitlements immediately! All 3 of these things are being pushed by one side or the other. This is called compromise, and will work to achieve what we need.

By the way - Keep the 600 million in cuts to defense and use the money to pay for my kid's college!!!

Shortly after Republican House leaders offered a proposal to avert impending tax hikes and spending cuts, conservatives attacked it as a betrayal of core principles,

Who effing cares what those right-wing nutbags think anymore?

They've made their position more than clear. Now, here's their problem: the majority of people don't share their "core principles". WE, THE PEOPLE have made OUR position clear: we don't negotiate with terrorists, and the GOTea are terrorists.

If the election outcome didn't drive the point home, then apparently we'll need to purge the rest of these fools in November 2014.

Hint to Republicans: If you're truly interested in FIXING your party, quit looking for the next Reagan. Look for the next Eisenhower.

Speaker Boehner's $800 billion tax hike will destroy American jobs and allow politicians in Washington to spend even more, while not reducing our $16 trillion debt by a single penny," Republican Sen. Jim DeMint said Tuesday in a statement… (Boehner allies point, ironically, to some past comments by DeMint suggesting allowing some tax increases might be politically expedient.)… News reported Monday by NBC that Boehner had moved to strip four GOP lawmakers of plum committee assignments due to disloyal behavior during the past two years has only threatened to exacerbate tensions between Boehner and
influential conservatives, too.

Republicans might have some credibility regarding "JOBS JOBS JOBS" if they had actually kept their mid-term promises and created some JOBS, but instead Republicans chose to stall our Economic Recovery because they "bet the farm" on making the American People continue to suffer so that we'd end up putting a Republican in the White House thinking that would pursuade Republicans to get to work. That plan failed too.

I told Republicans that the American People would NOT be intimidated or bullied, but apparently Republicans thought that was their only move, and thank the stars Republicans again failed miserably.

By the sounds of it, the snakes are beginning to eat their own.

The display of the GOPs now-public suicide pact continues. It is absolutely unbelievable that there's that many of them that still can't see the handwriting on the wall.

When food disappears off the table of their poor religious/racist supporters, the GOPs positions will finally become clear to at least some of these people. Hunger trumps 'principles' almost every time....

"This is a clear attempt on the part of Republican leadership to punish those in Washington who vote the way they promised their constituents they would -- on principle -- instead of mindlessly rubber-stamping trillion dollar deficits and the bankrupting of America," added Matt Kibbe, of the Tea Party-oriented group FreedomWorks

Idiots! God forbid they go to Washington to actually vote FOR their constituents and not for the "TEA" party. I didn't know people were elected to "punish" other Congressmen.

concern, the only thing is they dont care what you or a say about anything. These politicians have their own agenda. And just wait, the middle class will end up taking the big hit on this deal. That i will promise you. By the way , entitlements are not entitlements, i pay in every week for that @!$%#, so keep your hands out of my money pile.

And don't you dare back down on outlawing gay marriage. And you better toe the line when it comes to forcing rape victims to bear their rapists child, a gift from God. And Mr. Speaker, don't you go near immigration reform and you better make sure that health plans can refuse to cover female contraception. In fact we want all contraception illegal. Get on that now. Don't even think about "saving" Social Security or Medicare John. We don't really want to save them, we want to destroy or better yet privatize both. Don't you forget or back down on any of these issues John, or you'll be spending way more time on the golf course. It's SNAFU John, nothing has changed.

"GOP'S RIGHT FLANK WARNS BOEHNER: DON'T CAVE ON TAX INCREASES"

I can see a bunch of toothless big gummed idiots going "DON'T CAVE
ON AX INCREASES BOENHER..."

Who are these so called "Right Flanks"? Teatards maybe?

How the hell do they get to be 'Right Flanks' with mental capacities of an Orangutan?

it's interesting those leading this republican charge to help destroy America, Republican Sen. Jim DeMint, Republican Rep. Paul Ryan, and Republican Kevin McCarthy, are part of the original "13 Obstructionist" who met on January 20, 2009, plotting to sabotage and undermine the U.S. Economy during President Obama's Inauguration.

Here, let me re-post that group:

On January 20, 2009 Republican Leaders in Congress plotted to sabotage and undermine U.S. Economy during President Obama's Inauguration:

The Guest List:

Frank Luntz - GOP Minister of Propaganda

Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI)

Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA)

Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA),

Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX),

Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-TX),

Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI)

Rep. Dan Lungren (R-CA),

Sen. Jim DeMint (SC-R),

Sen. Jon Kyl (AZ-R),

Sen. Tom Coburn (OK-R),

Sen. John Ensign (NV-R) and

Sen. Bob Corker (TN-R).

concernedone...

Agree with your points. I voted for O but don't believe in "Eat the Rich". I DO agree to letting the cuts expire for the rich but extending them for the mid-class as part of getting out of the current problem.

My concern is that we'll always go to that well when money is tight: freeze MC taxes and raise it for the wealthy. If that happens, eventually we'll have a 25% rate for 98% of the pop and the top 2% will get a 90% tax rate. This would also not be good.

I propose we expire the cut for >250K and extend the cut for the rest for another two years and only for two-year increments after that (yah, each congress has to decide when to let the cuts expire for all). Additionally, the gap should be frozen; That is, you can't make any further hikes on the >250K rate without an equal hike in <250K rate.

Republicans will either cave on tax rate increases for the wealthy or have them automatically implemented in less than 4 weeks. Then, if they hold the middle class' tax rate reductions hostage, they will surly suffer in the elections the following year. Its a no-win for Republicans, yet they continue to grandstand and make total fools out of themselves and their GOP brand. I say we just let them hang themselves and offer no condolences afterwards.

moshuluu---The passenger manifest for the Titanic.

Royalstar05

keep your hands out of my money pile

So using your point, Warren Buffet should collect his $668 social security check because he has paid into the system for 50 years? This is what I mean by reform... Why should a billionaire be allowed to take payment from a system that is bankrupt? Shouldn't a logical society be able to look at a situation like this and say entitlements are for those who need it, not for those who have done 'quite well' financially?

I will give you an example of my personal situation... About a decade ago, the auto industry was sending their parts manufacturing jobs to Asia. My plant supplied GM to the tune of 70% of our business. GM decided they could no longer do business in the USA ($$$), so they removed their production equipment from our plant and sent it to South Korea. Now they import the same parts for their "Made in America" cars and trucks...

Anyway, I was let go since my job went with the equipment. After 2 months, the bank accounts were looking skimpy, so I turned to the "welfare" system. They asked how much money I had in my bank accounts. I foolishly answered honestly... They asked me to leave and not come back until I had less than $1,000 to my name! This taught me several important lessons. The one pertinent to this thread is this: If you NEED the money, take what you can. If you don't need the money, come back when you do. Harsh, but true...

the administration has nothing to lose; if no compromise is reached , then Obama gets all of his tax raises and balancing the budget; if the Republicans cave, and give him the additional revenue and tax hikes on the wealthy, he gets what he wants, either way the Administration wins; the only losers are the working middle class, they get it in the neck either way; social security taxes are the biggest single revenue source for the federal Government making up about 38 - 40% of ALL tax revenue.

tracontech

Republicans will either cave on tax rate increases for the wealthy or have them automatically implemented in less than 4 weeks. Then, if they hold the middle class' tax rate reductions hostage, they will surly suffer in the elections the following year. Its a no-win for Republicans, yet they continue to grandstand and make total fools out of themselves and their GOP brand. I say we just let them hang themselves and offer no condolences afterwards.

While this makes sense in a perfect world..... let's not ignore the implications brought on by actually going over the cliff in reality. Our credit score will be subject to a downgrade. Stocks will plummet. The dollar will weaken. Companies will refuse to hire. And the pieces will be scattered all over the floor once again for someone to pick up.

The insane logic here is that we have to allow our economy to once again walk the tightrope, blind and without a safety net before we can implement the necessary corrective actions. And in the end, you can thank the wormy tongues of special interests, lobbyists, big business and the puppet congressmen whom without question do their bidding.

There is without a doubt no chance of a compromise. If they do reconcile their differences before the New Year..... I will go out on the limb and tell you nobody will be relieved or happy with the deal in place (especially the middle class).

GOP lost the election by listening to the Right. Now they keep making the same mistake. They will lose even more races in the future if the economy gets worse because there is no budget deal.

I don't recall ever voting for Grover Norquist. Why are those Republicans so afraid of him? If they think pledging allegiance to a lobbyist and well-funded special interests is going to keep them in office, they are sadly mistaken. I want my Congressional representatives to represent the public majority interest, not the .01%. Most of the deficit is not programs for the poor, it's the the systemic looting of public funds and resources by the rich and powerful. War for Oil, Defense industry boondoggles, low cost leases, "socialized" banking losses, deregulation encouraging wall street fraud, Tax breaks for off-shoring labor or profits, Subsidizing real estate profits by way of tax revenue loss... the list goes on and on.

I say tax them heavy and then offer them a tax incentive for every job they bring back or create. It's time to get the cash flowing again - not just greedily sucked up and horded. We need to get back to tax surpluses and keep a lid on wasteful Government pork spending. Once the economy is repaired, the overall picture will improve.

TO: tracontech who wrote:

"Republicans will either cave on tax rate increases for the wealthy or have them automatically implemented in less than 4 weeks. Then, if they hold the middle class' tax rate reductions hostage, they will surely suffer in the elections the following year. Its a no-win for Republicans, yet they continue to grandstand and make total fools out of themselves and their GOP brand. I say we just let them hang themselves and offer no condolences afterwards."

Agreed.

Maybe that's the Republicans' plan, to go over the fiscal cliff to cancel the Bush Tax Cuts, and that way they can try to blame those higher taxes for the wealthy on the President.

...we are being played for chumps by both sides. Just a distraction while our pockets are picked.

Google "Charley Reese's final column."

Once again the tail wags the dog.

Pitiful, just pitiful.

Hold tight Mr. President, if they want to drive us over the fiscal cliff let them. Many of them will not survive the fall and we'll make sure of that in 2014. We can do it, let them go.

Buh-bye GOP, buh-bye.

I"m sorry President Lincoln, President Roosevelt, and President Eisenhower, your once great party has lost it's way and I don't think it will ever come back. It started with that fraud and charlatan Ronald Reagan and has been in steady decline ever since.

For the fiscal cliff battle the GOP needs to adopt Custer's battle-cry from the movie LITTLE BIG MAN.

"ON-WARD TO LITTLE BIG HORN AND GLORY!"

We the people....(along with the Sioux and the Northern Cheyenne) will be waiting.

American Girl-724855

Agreed.

Maybe that's the Republicans' plan, to go over the fiscal cliff to cancel the Bush Tax Cuts, and that way they can try to blame those higher taxes for the wealthy on the President.

I think that is their game plan. Wipe their hands clean of the tax hikes...... and further pat themselves on the back for writing (re-writing) tax breaks for 98% of the population. Then they will obstruct the reworking of the major cuts in entitlements and defense spending.

Seems to me they will be ok with that deal, right? And if we want to amend the deal in any way, we have to get it past the GOP House per usual (which means nothing will get through)

"THe time for negotiating is over. THe time for overheated rhetoric and self-serving posturing has arrrived!"

Since the "right flank" has driven moderate and independent voters away from the GOTea in enough numbers to ensure the reelection of Obama, it could be said that it's time for them to STFU.

I lean towards conservatism on fiscal issues and more liberal on social issues. At any rate, I used to be a Republican and switched to Independent because the only time the Republicans ever called me was for money to block a bill. I told them to call back when they came up with an actual idea- they never did. This is totally ridiculous. A compromise must be made. Raise taxes on the rich- and not just the nominal rate, but the actual rate, and cut back entitlements. Were these politicians never married ? Do they know how to get things done ? Compromise- look it up in the dictionary ! The current gap between the rich and poor has not been this wide since the roaring 20's. Since 1968, U.S. income has steadily become less equally distributed. In 2011, income for the bottom 80% dropped and for the top 20% it rose. The middle class is shrinking. There are even current books out about our disappearing middle class. Does anyone think 2 classes for the U.S. is a good idea ? I'm sorry, but this is unhealthy for the country. On a side note, I don't think lack of capital is causing our current unemployment- there's trillions of dollars on the sidelines. It's policy and uncertainty. It's political gridlock- thanks guys and girls in D.C.. Don't even mention special interests- that's what fuels the party machines.

"Speaker Boehner's $800 billion tax hike will destroy American jobs and allow politicians in Washington to spend even more, while not reducing our $16 trillion debt by a single penny," Republican Sen. Jim DeMint said Tuesday in a statement. The South Carolina senator – an influential figure among conservatives – was referring to the new revenue projected in the GOP proposal that would come from closing loopholes and deductions in the tax code rather than rate increases.

Gee Sen. DeMint - you have had the Bush tax cuts for over 10 years - so where are the jobs these job creators are suppose to create??????????????

Well GOP...Hold your ground! Lets see how many of you will still be in office next election!

And Boehner is still the biggest @$$ in Washington.

@Fishead....that is exactly what the ONLY good GOP president in the last 112 years did...Eisenhower taxed the rich at 90%, and then warned all of us living at that time to beware the Military/Industrial Complex. But we didn't listen. He paid off the war debts of WWII and Korea with the tax rates paid during his administration.

I've been promoting the only fair tax for the past two decades...a gross income tax where ALL sources of income (including dividends, capital gains, estate, alimony, under-the-table cash, etc.) are taxable at the below noted rate schedule. There will only be individual filings on a very simple form (that includes corporations, since the SCOTUS has ruled them to be people). No married filings, no dependent deductions, no other deductions, credits, subsidies, or any other type of loopholes. All "trust" funds are either voided or taxed to the full extent of the following schedule at the time of disbursement of the funds, but money cannot be moved into any such trusts to avoid paying taxes on it. That is why this is a gross income tax.

The simple filing form first line will be TOTAL GROSS INCOME. Subtract $25K (first $25K of income is tax free). Any balance between $25K and $250K is taxed at 15% (subtract that maximum limit from Balance A.) Then calculate the balance between $250K and $750K at 30%. If you have a gross income over $750K, then the balance of your income would be taxed at 45%. See how simple that form would be? If a person wants to have ten children, then that is that individual's problem. Why should the rest of the taxpayers be penalized for his/her choice. If a person wants to be married (same or opposite sex), why should they get a special rate...that marriage is their choice. See how the fairness comes into this tax structure? No "special" benefits for anyone in this tax code.

P.S. What are you going to tell them at the pearly gates ? I had to do it to get reelected ? Grow a set.

Oh please.....fake indignation from the Reps to make it appear they have given all they can give.

The Reps better get ready to get voted into obsurity if they don't budge on tax cuts for the wealthy. The wealthy had 4 years to be "job creators" and they ended up just being greedy instead.

A little myopic don't you think folks? It's called compromise which requires giving from both sides...perhaps some Obama statements from the past are fitting;

Raising Taxes

January 29, 2010 - "I am just listening to the consensus among people who know the economy best. And what they will say is that if you either increased taxes or significantly lowered spending when the economy remains somewhat fragile, that that would have a destimulative effect and potentially you'd see a lot of folks losing business, more folks potentially losing jobs. That would be a mistake when the economy has not fully taken off."

Deficit Spending

March 16, 2006 - "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. ...Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that 'the buck stops here'. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Amazing how so much has changed in so little time...

It's time to go off the fiscal cliff. Only a true emergency will energize America to truly tax the uber-rich; and to realistically deal with our certifiably insane federal spending. Conservatives hate Secular Progressives (and God knows) Liberals hate Conservatives..

This pressure on Boehner from his right flank could have the unintended benefit of signaling to the White House just how narrow his space to negotiate really is.

Unintended my arse. We all know this is supposed to convince Democrats they won't get tax rate hikes........and it won't work. Geitner said they need to limit deductions, close loopholes AND increase rates. If we go over the cliff that's going to happen anyway, and, the changes will be more severe for the rich. Then, Obama can propose a middle-class tax cut retroactive to January 1st and we'll see who supports the middle-class.

These Republicans are a joke.

Changing pensions into 401K plans.

Limiting unemployment benefits.

Lowering taxes for the "job-creators".

Privatizing SS.

Vouchering Medicare.

Block Granting Medicaid.

What do all of these have in common? They all screw the middle-class and are all Republican ideas. Now, who cares about the middle-class?

GOP CORE PRINCIPLES????

Where were they as they voted, en masse, for two unfunded wars, unpaid for tax cuts, and the Medicare Drug Law--all the biggest drivers of our deficit and debt??

Such a laugh.

The current gap between the rich and poor has not been this wide since the roaring 20's. Since 1968, U.S. income has steadily become less equally distributed. In 2011, income for the bottom 80% dropped and for the top 20% it rose. The middle class is shrinking. There are even current books out about our disappearing middle class. Does anyone think 2 classes for the U.S. is a good idea ?

This is true, and one of the reasons I do not understand the GOP.

The GOP claims that we are spending too much in entitlements. More specific, they claim that we are "taking" money from the affluent and "giving" it to the poor. However, over the last 30 years the wealth of this country has moved AWAY from the poor, and TOWARDS the rich.

So, logically speaking, if what the GOP says about entitlements are true, then the wealth of the country should be moving towards the poor because we are "giving it" to them. However, the wealth is moving in the opposite direction.

I can not, for the life of me, understand how the GOP can claim we are giving too much money to the poor, when the factual math shows all the money is going to the rich. If you step back and look at the economy as a whole, it would seem that we are taking money from the poor, and giving it to the rich.

Unfortunately, the spending habits of the rich can not support an entire economy that is based on 80% consumer spending. Unless we redistribute money back to the middle class (who will spend it in BUSINESSES owned by the rich, thus giving it back to the rich), we are screwed. If we continue with policies that redistribute money to the wealthy, we will end up with a 2-class society and fall into 3rd world status just like every other 2-class society.

Out of curiosity, why is that closing loopholes and ridiculous deductions is presented by the A-hole talking heads on the right as tax hikes? No tax rate is raised, just those that cheat and wiggle their way out of paying their legal obligation are stopped. F@#$... ridiculous. And tired... and sad... and typical. Hate to say it, but I think Boehner was actually on to something. I do think that the bush tax cuts for the upper 2% should expire, but I think they should expire for everyone. But if it's going to wreck the economy, keep them going for another year, but close deductions and loopholes (and raise capital gains, since that's what will have more of an effect anyway). Combine that with spending cuts and we might have a slightly balanced stepping stone.

I'm not liking this whiny little give me exactly what I want or no no no attitude from the white house or from the GOP.

Don't give the welfare riding Takers another penny to spend! Every time they raise taxes ten percent they increase spending 30 percent! Enough is enough!

And what idiot would agree with that kind of plan in the first place? And it's THEIR fault?

Why don't you negotiate a little better rather than gripe about the way you let his happen. No, instead you try to do the same thing, by completely screwing the middle-class, and wonder why it doesn't work.

Don't blame the other guy for your ineptness.

Bring on The Cliff. You can't work with these Right-wing morons, so just let it happen. The country knows it's the Selfish-Right's fault...let's stick it to them. All because they are afraid of Norquist...let them fry.

The government creates tax deductions to spur growth in certain areas of the economy. That's why home interest is deductible...to encourage home buying. So, using the Selfish Right's lame approach, all non-economically beneficial loop holes should be closed anyway. So let's close them AND raise the rates on the top 2%.

And their proposal to raise the retirement age and stopping cost of living hikes in Social Security puts the burden on who? THE MIDDLE CLASS.

It's just not that hard:

Raise the rates on the top 2% to Clinton era rates. Most CEOs AND WARREN BUFFETT agree.

Stop invading guiltless, sovereign countries like Iraq and cut the military spend in half.

Make everyone agree that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS and if they don't, give them shock therapy to remove that part of their dysfunctional mind. More money in the hands of consumers creates demand and that demand drive the economy. Not more money in the hands of millionaires. You Nazi posters on this board who continue to push this tripe are either being paid with the little money that Rove and Norquist have left, or are just idiots.

Why are lobbyist even allowed when their tactics are used in the private sector there is a law suit for bribing. MY question is should it not be illegal for congress to participate with lobbyist.

Jim DeMint the traitor complaining....? DeMint was one of the 15 repub politicians that pledged against the United states 4 years ago the night President Obama took office. DeMint Pledged to vote against any bill that might make president Obama look good in the next election....and vote and obstruct DeMint did. The traitor was elected to office to serve the people of the United States who put him in office, the n the traitor took the pledge to King Norquist not to raise taxes on the rich. Next he took the pledge against America, to vote against the good of America....When you need a traitor, look no further than Jim DeMint.....He should be tried for treason.

I can muster a tiny bit of sympathy for Mr. Boehner (just a tiny bit), but this problem for the repubs is completely self-imposed. It started when they decided to genuflect to their nascent leader Pope Grover 25 years ago. Then they drank fully from the Tea Party kool-aide. Galloping with unabashed abandon to the hard right has enclosed them in a very tight box. And with the results of the last election (which they so badly misinterpreted), now shows that the American public has had it with their vaginal-probing, election stealing, science-hating, middle class stomping, 47% B.S. - these guys are toast.

If they drive the bus over the cliff, you can kiss the Tea Party good bye. And Good riddance.

So in order to fight a small tax increase for some (only 2% of the population) the way to fight it is a automatic tax increase for all? Kind of like fighting a brain cancer with a 45. Cal automatic? A person earning $300K a year would get the under $250K old tax rate. That would be 98% of us. That would mean a tax increase on the remaining $50K of almost 4%. 4% times 50K =2K. 2K on 300K =less than .7% tax increase on total income. How unfair!! My god how will they take care of their family and business. Can't you get more from a single mom with two kids earning $20K as a burger flipper she pays nothing! How unfair!!!!

What seems to be missing in this conversation is WHY so many people are insisting on revenue/tax increases 'on the rich'. No matter what metric you look at, the fiscal decisions made in the last 20 years have by and far benefited one group at the expense of the middle class. It is clear at this point that giving existing wealthy people more money does not grow the economy (of the US). Instead they invest it globally to take advantage of emerging markets and/or finance corporations that view employees as 'resources' to be used and discarded at will.

Many of us have watched our jobs get moved to low cost locations to create record corporate profits while the lucky ones work harder and longer for less. Small businesses get killed off by a system that is bought and paid for by mega corporations who's executives flit from one job to the next making insane amounts of money regardless of performance. Look around at who the truly wealthy are - these days, hardly any started like most of us. The "risk" they brag about is mitigated by inside deals and lobbyists who get the laws (business and tax) shaped to their benefit. Its not gambling if you are counting cards or playing with loaded dice.

No one disputes that America's economic engine is the middle class - all the metrics prove this out. It makes zero sense to continue to starve the engine while ensuring 1% of the citizens are untouchable. We're quickly becoming a caste system where either you were born into riches and will die that way or you were born to work your life for no better future than your parents. Retirement is quickly becoming just a pipe dream that previous generations enjoyed.

The tax rates were cut because we had a deficit so the theory was we didn't need to take in so much. Well after a couple of wars, a housing market bust, and a financial crisis brought on by the mega banks who escaped scott free, we are now in a big hole. The majority of us have been dog paddling like crazy to keep our heads above water yet those people drinking champagne on the yacht now insist that they can not afford to throw any of their precious life jackets into the water. Let them sink or swim they cry.

Well enough is enough. No one is asking them to live like the rest of us, just assist in getting this country out of the mess that their friends created.

Honestly, we're all socialists people... No matter what your argument is. Republicans are socialist for the wealthy (they fight against unions, minimum wage, health care, helping the poor, tax rates for the wealthy). The Republicans do everything in their power to increase the wealth of the rich as much as humanly possible.

The Democrats are socialist for the poor. They increase spending (often with little thought to overall consequence) and they try to make the rich pay more in order to benefit the lower class.

The only socialism we're missing is one that supports the middle class. We're all pretty much f@#$ here in the middle.

And yes, if you've ever dialed 911, enjoyed an city museum, had your country defended by the military, or checked a book out from a library, you're a socialist. Stop the angry whining.

Crazy Steve @ 1.14.......

When food disappears off the table of their poor religious/racist supporters, the GOPs positions will finally become clear to at least some of these people. Hunger trumps 'principles' almost every time....

Don't bet on that happening.......my guess is that they will just dig in harder to blame Obama and the Democrats harder, they've become convinced that he's the anti-christ and no amount of logical reasoning or hunger can reverse that. Their increasing hunger will only increasingly convince them that they were right, they are not able to understand anything else. It just 'HAS TO BE THOSE SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS FAULT!!'

2014 needs to be a reminder to Koch Bros, Karl Rover Rove, Pope/Gov Grov No-brain Norquist they have destroyed democracy with their money and now it is Repubs time to SUFFER big time.

Don't they mean, "The GOP's Hind Flank"??? The far right already cost you the election and seats in the house, you think you all would stop listening to them already.

It isnn't going to help one friggen bit to raise the taxes on Americans making over $200K. Quit trying to fool yourselves. ALL taxes need to og back where they were. You libbies think that just 2% of the population is going to support your grand illusion of a great America? Well, think again.

How about we make a law that taxes all elected officials at 50% on all wages that are over the medium wage of their constituents? Those clowns might be able to come up with some better ideas of how to make things work if their wages were dependent on their policies.

I hate to tell wje37fcsm, that while he rants about the Bush tax cuts for the rich, unless he's making minimum wage, he, along with most tax payers, had their taxes cut too.

Trickle down economics does not trickle all the way down.. Tax breaks given to corps and the wealthy are used for stock buybacks, dividends and bonuses while these corps wait for demand for products to increase.

Let the Bush tax cuts expire and return capital gains taxes back to normal income levels for the over $250K crowd, Increase taxes on companies that out source jobs reward those that in source, and start up much needed infrastructure projects with increased tax revenues.

Infrastructure projects that stimulate the working class by creating good paying solid benefit jobs will increase demand for goods and services which will trickle all the way to the top were raw materials, manufacturing, and banking resides...­.. The more money being spent by the citizens, the working classes will increase demand for good and services. When goods and services demand increase small and large companies hire to handle the increased demand, this then has created more jobs. All of these increase demand jobs down low means that citizens with more money are spending and as they are earning and spending they are creating more tax revenues as the money trickles all the way back to the top

which will further increase the need for raw materials and manufacturing which will increase the need for investments and increase the number of jobs, and increase Wallstreet stocks,
and will exponentially increase our tax revenues allowing us to pay down debts and further repair infrastructure as well a shore up our social safety nets.

(not so) common sense 101..(for so many people)

The money pushed up top does our economy no good... A capitalistic society thrives on the ability of the working classes to consume goods and services. If the wealth pushed upward is not pushed back into our economy down low to the workers..., then we have what we have today, a barley growing stagnant economy.

Let the Bush tax cuts expire, return capital gains tax rates to normal income rates for those making over $250K a year, close tax loopholes. Reward corps that create good paying jobs domestically, increase taxes on corps that take their jobs overseas, or import mostly foreign products.
Use the increased tax revenue to start up some major infrastructure jobs and put lots of people back to work at good pay with solid benefits.

once more people down low are spending money, local businesses will pick up, suppliers will pick up and they both will hire more to handle increased demand...
This will progress to the next level of the economic pyramid which will start seeing increased demand and they will hire, all this hiring creates more demand..
Each step along the economic pyramid will see an increase in tax revenue generation, and by the time all that money pushed down low trickles all the way to the top it will have an exponential effect our economy, tax revenues and our ability to pay down debts and further stimulate the economy with more infrastructure projects.

the very infrastructure by which all wealth is built upon and maintained.. Tax breaks to the uber wealthy starve this nations ability to function as a capitalistic country...
We are well on our way to being a plutocracy...

Taxes are the only thing that will raise the money to get the economy going again. It will reduce the debt and thank goodness the GOP members are starting to get fingers pointed at them.

If the GOP wants out of politics, just keep it up and the Democrats and Republicans that are sick of you will make the changes that are necessary. Find people willing to work and solve the problems, rather than cry about taxes for the rich and scream that it won't help anything. The billion we make will not disappear into thin air, it will go towards the deficit. 4 years of taxes will fix everything.

If obama gets the tax hikes he wants, that will run the government for 6 days. Seems to me that there is a spending problem here.

If 9 trillion in debt is un-American (obama's words) then what is 16 tillion in debt mean?

Isn't it time to put the teaparty to rest. You lost, @!$%#s. GTFO! Taxing the rich only helps the economy. Anyone telling you otherwise is either rich or a @!$%#ing idiot.

@ Dave Simpson The billion we make will not disappear into thin air, it will go towards the deficit. 4 years of taxes will fix everything.

What world do you live in? The tax increase on small business will do ZERO to reduce the deficit. And only covers 10% of the annual deficit spending. What programs are you willing to cut to get to the other 90% of the annual deficit. And you have do do that first before you start to reduce the deficit itself.

while not reducing our $16 trillion debt by a single penny," Republican Sen. Jim DeMint said

I hope Jim DeMint is intelligent enough to realize that neither the mandated cuts/tax hikes nor any deal the rethugs/Dems strike will not REDUCE our national debt by "a single penney". All either does is reduce the rate of our yearly deficits. Even with an agreement our national debt will INCREASE by another $10,000,000,000,000.00 over the next decade. If our pols can't even agree on this how can we expect them to make any really meaningful efforts to reduce our debt.

53% Percent of America will blame Republicans for going over the fiscal cliff?

Ha ha. Given margins of error, I'd say "53% of America" sounds deceptively like the same half of America that voted for this Socialist President the second time around.

If the Republicans hold their ground and force cuts to entitlement programs one thing is for sure...some liberal MSN posters on here might be without a welfare check to pay for internet.

Boehner is an ass who made promises not to raise taxes on his contributors, while continuing to fail the majority of the people in this country.

He is a poor leader of the house as he is working for a few while the majority get lost in his promise.

Yet anyone with intelligence knows that promises can be broken and sorry Boner but the time has come to break those promises in exchange for bettering this country for all!

I say screw the GOP.

Just pass an executive order and let them deal with it.

Enough is enough.

HEARD ON CAPITOL HILL IN THE GOP CAUCUS

"Quick, circle the wagons, the Liberals are attacking, the Liberals are attacking, protect the wealthy, we must protect the wealthy for they are the life blood of the GOP. Circle the wagons and protect the wealthy from the heathen Liberals."

Onward to Little Big Horn and Glory, boys.

For the likes of SabotAndHeat, I say go for it!!! let's bury them Sons-of-Bitches once and for all. Problem? YOU DON'T HAVE THE BALLS. That is the reason why the Tea Party will wash away like dirt on your car.

Provened over and over, Politicians will do what it takes to perserve their hides... John Bohner is not about to cry over the loss of his Speaker postion after the long negotiation of redistricting that helped to remove Democrats from House Majority. It was a poison pill that the Democrats willfully took to pass bills... Unfortunately, I don't see that kind of give and take... JUST TAKE. in this regard, the Republicans will EAT THEIR YOUNGS....

So please stop with the whinning and take your pills. The difference is that you chose not to take preventitive medicine, and now you're in the emergency room... lol... and still refuse to believe that you're sick...

steve-605134

Don't give the welfare riding Takers another penny to spend!

Steve, I say the same thing about those blood-sucking, good for nothing but lining their own pockets welfare corporations, wanting to pay very little or no taxes but get federal tax returns for sending jobs overseas.

Isn't that what Romney and his crew said, he will help companies move their operations overseas so they DON'T have to pay ANY USA taxes on money earned there?

I believe Romney did say that.

@ I'm Just Saying

Taxing the rich only helps the economy. Anyone telling you otherwise is either rich or a @!$%#ing idiot...

or doesnt want to follow the teachings of Karl Marx's, Communist Manifesto, steps to overthrowing Free Trade. Step (2 of 10.) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Progressive tax: Tax rates rise, as one earns more money.

P.S. Taxing the rich and simply giving the money out in the form of programs doesnt help the economy whatsover.

@ GungaDin

Just pass an executive order.

i.e. bypass our Constitutional checks and balances. You know if you liberals didnt hate our 2nd Amendment rights, you might be dangerous.

@ Moshuluu

Blood sucking? I think not.

You act as if you didnt have a choice in the matter. You handed the rich your money. Your just suffering from consumer guilt. It will pass as you mature.

Boehner thinks he's GOD because of the wealthy are spreading him with Gold Silver and Cheer but he shooould ...take a bus to the Democratic state of Ohio and listen to to the people that didn't vote for him.

Sometimes I think our election process is getting closer to that of Iran.

@Thturd

Hmmm. Go for what? Don't have the balls for what?

Maybe less mouth oozing will help your communication style?

JH-479998

It isnn't going to help one friggen bit to raise the taxes on Americans making over $200K. Quit trying to fool yourselves. ALL taxes need to og back where they were. You libbies think that just 2% of the population is going to support your grand illusion of a great America? Well, think again.

This...... right here........ is the problem with society. This is the type of person that the left needs to negotiate with. Someone who is so delusional, so brainwashed by thousands of hours of talking head pundits, that they couldn't form a coherent thought if their life depended on it.

And that is why we are in the conundrum we are today. We're fighting an uphill battle vs. an opponent who would cut off their nose to spite their face. It's very similar to terrorism in fact. The concept of suicide at the promise of 30 virgins.

JH doesn't know how to have a two way conversation. He comes here and spews his newest (or oldest) talking point..... thinking it will make a difference. Thinking it will convince others and at the same time strengthen his allies. There is no compromising with ignorance. As has been stated time and again...... it will not be tax increases that fixes the economy. That is just one small component of righting the ship. Just about everybody knows that spending needs to be addressed. It is on the table.

You're being naive and trying to drive a wedge where one is not needed. Go read some unbiased journalism, and stay away from the news crack you're so hooked on. You know who I'm talking about.....

@ Lusitania

Or perhaps take a bus to a Republican state and listen to the other half of the country that did vote for him.

I'd say a 30% loss in President Obama's first time voters doesnt exactly scream everyone agrees with his game plan.

@ Tea Party Downgrade

We're fighting an uphill battle vs. an opponent who would cut off their nose to spite their face. It's very similar to terrorism in fact. The concept of suicide at the promise of 30 virgins.

This...... right here........ is the problem with society. This is the type of person that Conservatives need to negotiate with. Someone who is so delusional, so brainwashed by thousands of hours of talking head pundits, that they couldn't form a coherent thought if their life depended on it.

See how fun this is? Just randomly assuming your opinion is more important than another Americans?

Its called checks and balances. Get over over it.

moshuluu

Welfare is a drop in the bucket compared to off shore entitlements, congressional entitlements etc.

You should learn to fight for your own it may help.

Here we go once again with the phony arguments from both sides. Obama and company want rate increases on the rich and the republican right want no changes in taxes. BOTH are playing into the hands of the so-called 1%.

Let's look at the reality of this issue. In the 1950's the RATE on the rich was 90%, that's right 90%. Does anyone seriously think the ultra-rich really paid more in taxes? NO they did not. The reason is the ridiculously enormous tax code filled with loopholes and deductions ONLY the super wealthy can afford to hire lawyers and accountants to figure out. You and I and the small business man don't have the resources to even find these loopholes let alone take advantage of them.

Add to this - and listen up all you "progressives", who love the Kennedys. Those born into wealth rich that are not listed in the "who's richest" reports that live off of trust funds are taxed ZERO - yes zero, nadda, nothing, no one red cent. Why because the tax code exempts them from taxation. Income tax is only on earnings not actual wealth.

The new royalty, the Rockefellers, Carnegie's and even those in the lower echelon like the Kennedys are all part of this group of non-tax payers. For those that are in some "job" like members of the Kennedy family they only pay taxes on their earnings as politician. So someone like Joe Joe Kennedy who just was elected to Barney Franks old seat in Congress will get taxed on the 170,000.00 a year he makes as a congressman - his millions from the Kennedy trust fund is not touched.

The Republican neo-cons want no changes in the tax code at all. The ONLY advantage to this is that at least small business won't be affected, but the rich will keep right on whistling their way to the vault. Regardless both sides are NOT fighting for the middle class as they claim but are making up phony arguments to convince their respective constituents that they are "fight for them". It's all B.S.

Since the Federal Reserve and Federal Income tax came into play in 1913 the U.S. Dollar has LOST 98% of it's buy power. The FED prints money with not backing, in fact the money in the monopoly games has about the same REAL value as the dollar today. And the main reason that our debt ccontinually is less due to "entitlements" but to the interest we pay the FED and other outside sources for "borrowing" to raise the debt ceiling.

WAKE UP PEOPLE WE ARE BEING SCREWED BY BOTH PARTIES.

Skip in OKC:

"your once great party has lost it's way and I don't think it will ever come back"

Spoken like a true one party communist. Good luck with that comrade.

If you actually wanted a deal to get done, why in the world would you involve Paul Ryan in the negotiations? From Simpson-Bowles to the Supercommittee, all he's ever done is derail any possible fiscal progress.

The Republican tactic of pitting the craziest, most extreme right wingers against pragmatic, centrist proposals from Democrats, then agreeing to "compromise" on something well right of center isn't going to work again. America has figured out that scheme and they're not falling for it any more.

Looks like the next 4 years in Washington will resemble the last 4 years. Things must be pretty good as we are not going anywhere fast. $16.5+ Trillion in debt, economy stagnating, unemployment queues remain the same, foreign policy in tatters, WH without any clues about what to do next and the rest of our political hierarchy remind me of used dishcloths. Yes, things are pretty good in our Capital, not!

God help America because no one else will!!!

I know moshuluu! Oh pity the poor billionaires and millionaires! But screw the poor and the middle class. The rich are getting richer--the poor and middle class are getting poorer. The rich refuse to create jobs--or even keep their money in USA banks!

They complain about the poor on "welfare" but they take corporate welfare no problem! Privatize their profits but socialize their losses.

If they think welfare recipients have it so much better than the millionaires and billionaires--then I dare them to give away their money and try being really poor. I guarantee you they will not!

@ SabotAndHeat

Your just suffering from consumer guilt. It will pass as you mature.

@ Lusitania

You should learn to fight for your own it may help.

I guess I hit a nerve!

I'm doing well, and don't mind helping my fellow Americans, just as I helped ALL Americans by spending 34+ years in the U.S. Army Infantry, but thanks for your concerns.

No need to apologize, I don't accept ass kissing, you said what you said without knowing anything at all about me.

Hope you guys are doing well also.

If obama gets the tax hikes he wants, that will run the government for 6 days. Seems to me that there is a spending problem here.

The same is true with letting the payroll tax holiday expire and the federal government pay freeze yet I haven't heard 1 Republican (or Republican poster on here) say anything against that.

Comon hypocrites, where are you when the middle class is getting tax increases and pay freezes?

That's right, it proves the fact that if they aren't the rich you couldn't care less. Republicans and their drones don't care about tax increases when they affect the middle-class, but if they're rich it's the end of the world.

Strategically, Republicans should cede the rate increase. The wealthy will simply shelter their earnings, move more of their investments off-shore, and tax revenues will likely fall rather than increase, just as has happened in the U.K. (The U.K. parliament is now looking to reduce U.K. top rates again, since their rate increase on the wealthy in the past 4 years has been such a resounding failure.) The wealthy did this for years back in the '50s thru the '80s, when top tier rates were higher, but they were actually paying less in taxes than they do now. There's no reason to think they won't do it again when rates go back up.

Given this will have no material effect on deficit reduction, only then is there any chance the voting public will finally see that all of this "increase-taxes-on-the-wealthy-to-solve-everything" is a complete class-warfare fiction for the purpose of scoring political points, and we can finally debate solutions that will actually have a material effect on reducing deficits, thwarting inflation, and getting America back on its feet.

As Cox & Archer noted last week:

"The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion. Nothing like that figure is used in calculating the deficit. In reality, the reported budget deficit is less than one-fifth of the more accurate figure..

As of the most recent Trustees' report in April, the net present value of the unfunded liability of Medicare was $42.8 trillion. The comparable balance sheet liability for Social Security is $20.5 trillion…

When the accrued expenses of the government's entitlement programs are counted, it becomes clear that to collect enough tax revenue just to avoid going deeper into debt would require over $8 trillion in tax collections annually. That is the total of the average annual accrued liabilities of just the two largest entitlement programs, plus the annual cash deficit.

Nothing like that $8 trillion amount is available for the IRS to target. According to the most recent tax data, all individuals filing tax returns in America and earning more than $66,193 per year have a total adjusted gross income of $5.1 trillion. In 2006, when corporate taxable income peaked before the recession, all corporations in the U.S. had total income for tax purposes of $1.6 trillion. That comes to $6.7 trillion available to tax from these individuals and corporations under existing tax laws.

In short, if the government confiscated the entire adjusted gross income of these American taxpayers, plus all of the corporate taxable income in the year before the recession, it wouldn't be nearly enough to fund the over $8 trillion per year in the growth of U.S. liabilities. Some public officials and pundits claim we can dig our way out through tax increases on upper-income earners, or even all taxpayers. In reality, that would amount to bailing out the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon. Only by addressing these unsustainable spending commitments can the nation's debt and deficit problems be solved."

This is the most damming evidence ever and it proved the Republicans are unfit to serve as elected representatives.

They want to "Starve the Beast" but they forget the 'beast' is America. Playing at political brinksmanship and continuing to drive us into the ditch by jinxing the economic recovery is anti-American.

A good representative is one who does what is best for the nation, before partisan political interests.

This is clear evidence that Republicans can not govern. We must remove the obstructionists from all levels of government at every election.

The wealthy did this for years back in the '50s thru the '80s

Well, let them do it again, then. From 1950 to 1980, the middle class grew, as well as the upper class. From 1980 to 2012, the upper class has grown immensely and the middle class has stagnated.

I'm sorry to say, then, but if your best argument for not raising taxes on the wealthy is that it will take us back to 1950s-like growth, it's not a good argument at all.

I don't get Republicans, I really don't. They're all about patriotism and true Americans and 'Murka this and 'Murka that. Then there's this group of people whose "love" for America is so superficial, so tenuous, so phony, that they threaten to leave the country and fire employees if their personal income tax rates go up four percentage points. But somehow, Republicans, the party of true patriotism, are willing to fight to the death for these phony patriots, for these people who would allegedly leave the country if their tax rates go up four percentage points.

On the other hand, they hate the people who work hardest and do the toughest jobs to keep this country running. They say they're all "moochers."

I really, REALLY don't get Republicans.

Strategically, Republicans should cede the rate increase. The wealthy will simply shelter their earnings, move more of their investments off-shore, and tax revenues will likely fall rather than increase, just as has happened in the U.K. (The U.K. parliament is now looking to reduce U.K. top rates again, since their rate increase on the wealthy in the past 4 years has been such a resounding failure.) The wealthy did this for years back in the '50s thru the '80s, when top tier rates were higher, but they were actually paying less in taxes than they do now. There's no reason to think they won't do it again when rates go back up.

Given this will have no material effect on deficit reduction

Oh, so when the CBO says it will generate $800 Billion over 10 years (and Republicans gripe that it will only pay 8 days of expenses, per year), they don't know what they're talking about, but you do.

Gota Love the conservatives......they try every trick in the book.

AndresTM: "Well, let them do it again, then. From 1950 to 1980, the middle class grew, as well as the upper class. From 1980 to 2012, the upper class has grown immensely and the middle class has stagnated.

I'm sorry to say, then, but if your best argument for not raising taxes on the wealthy is that it will take us back to 1950s-like growth, it's not a good argument at all."

U.S. growth in the '50s had nothing to do with tax policy - in fact, it was in spite of tax policy. Rather, it had everything to do with the fact the U.S. had little in the way of international competition in the immediate post-war years. The boom ended when Japan, Germany and then Korea came roaring back in the late '60s the '70s and '80s. Barring the U.S. prevaling in a WWIII scenario, the U.S. will never see that kind of growth again. That period is no benchmark, given it was an anomoly in U.S. economic history.

Stopthecannibals: "Oh, so when the CBO says it will generate $800 Billion over 10 years (and Republicans gripe that it will only pay 8 days of expenses, per year), they don't know what they're talking about, but you do."

Oh, so everything the CBO says is gospel? Before it was enacted, the U.K.'s CBO-equivalent said their rate increase would generate an additional $8B/yr. Now they're saying it actually cost them $7B/yr in tax revenues.

Yes, John Boehner, by all means don't let go! Hang firm onto the chain attached to the anchor that is plummeting deeper into the bottomless tea cup with every passing moment.

Just remember how valuable the advice from the brainiacs in the Tea Party has been over these past few years. Yes, pleeeeease continue to just hang on to their self-imploding ideas with every ounce of strength you can muster. Do it for your country. Remember also that tea stains are some of the most difficult to remove.

I'm not bashing BUSH

but

what ECONOMIC DECISION

did his Administration make

that was truly

LONG TERM BENEFICIAL
? ? ?

.

.

.

Bush's 2% can get that "reprieve" if anyone of them filing taxes served in IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN.

Because they already PAID for those wars. The rest need to do their part....and write that bigger check.

Wars cost money. An economic reality that Bush didn't observe.

(cue the background music from "Jaws")

FEEDING FRENZY IN THE HOUSE!

I did a search to see if there was anything that would tell me how much money would be generated if the wealthiest were tax at a higher rate. I came across an article and pasted it here. Many of you keep saying the wealthy are paying at a lower rate than you. many of you are using information that obama used in the election to get re-elected and some appears to be false. it really looks to me that Obama expects ythe upper 2% to simply fund his run away spending. He did ask for $1.6 Trillion in new spending just the other day and only a month into his second term which follwed the biggest national debt increase in our history. THE PROBLEM IS UNFUNDED SPENDING. No matter how much we tax the rich. you will only get so much. They didn't get wealthy by letting poor budgeting steal it from them. If any of us budgeted our homes the way Obama has the country we would be homeless in months. It is time for real debt management. If going over some imaginary cliff does that then i say lets do it. It looks like many of you andObama think all we have to do is raise taxes on the wealthy to fix the mess we are in.... What a sad sad misguided belief.

the following is form the article....

Well, I'm not sure where you define wealthy...but the upper 50% of the wage earners pay @97% of all tax collections, and the lower ones only @3%. The upper of the upper pay a disproportionate share of that too, the Top 1% of earners = 37% of taxes paid, the next bracket 2-5% accounts for another 20%. So about 57% paid by the top 5%. Especially as this is for Personal Income Tax only, and many of the more wealthy have much of the income taxed (some would say double taxed) by in the Corporate returns of those corporations they control/own.

Also, this is of those filing returns. The percentage of people whose income is, because of deductions/exemptions below where they have to file returns, and with things like Earned Income tax credits, actually get more back than they might pay, is huge...something like 40% of the populace. And of course, the lower earners pay at much reduced rate anyway.

Some quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes paid at an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of all taxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom 50% pay 3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%.

The deficit was zero, hell it was better than that, it was a surplus. The call was to pay down the debt with that. Instead the Republicans decided to ram their tax cuts down our throats. It was passed under reconciliation, with Cheney casting the deciding vote with most Democrats voting no because they felt it was too heavily skewed to the wealthy. Then 9/11 and a recession followed by unnecessary war with Iraq. McCain asked the question, do we really want tax cuts during a war? If the Republicans really cared about the debt would they have let all this happen? The rich in this country (through their Republican lackeys in congress) have declared war against unions, workers and small business start-ups, using the latest Republican caused depression as an excuse to slash wages and benefits (or worse to ship the job overseas to slave workers). Who are the takers in this society?

wje37fcsm

Off the cliff... I wanna see those rich bastards taxes go up....

All I had to do was go off the first dozen trolls to see reality. Welfare leaches waiting for more $$$ and sucking any greatness out of ANYBODY that truely thrives to work and better themselves. You have re-elected an idiot that has done NOTHING for America for four miserable years. You'll truely be eating your own in another 3 years because nothing will be left. THANKS FOR NOTHING.

Russian nuclear submarines in the Gulf of Mexico, North Korea testing ICBMs, Iran developing nuclear weapons, Syria using WMDs exported from Iraq before the war....how the he_— does SOMEONE give any of you takers the wakup call???!!! Pathetic.....

America has voted. The overwhelming majority of American voters voted for Obama. Obama campaigned on the fact of putting an end to the entitlement of a tax cut for the 2%. It is that simple. Any congressman that votes against it, is voting against the wishes of the American people.

For the whiners still crying about losing the election, time to grow up. You are in the minority. Mainstream Americans do not want what you want. You either suck it up be an adult and live under the wishes of the majority, or you pack up and move elsewhere. I'm getting tired of having to hear these people say that America has to change to suit their needs. My country doesn't have to bow to the demands of a few republicans who feel every other America owes them a living. America, love it or leave it.

We are in an amazing amount of trouble. It's all of our own doing too. Some above want other people's taxes to go up so they can continue to have their own free stuff, maintaining this will fix our economy. One says to not negotiate (which isn't a bad idea imo) and instead issue an executive order. Others say that the debt doesn't matter at all. Most Americans today, if the majority of the posts above are any indication, are totally illiterate regarding economics, constitutional law, history, among other things.

I don't want a deal. I want to go over the cliff. I want the taxes on the people who just voted for free stuff to go up just like anyone elses. But EVEN if we go over the cliff and cut and tax as much as that implies we are still only about half way to ending deficit spending. The argument about how to avoid going over the cliff, if it's solved, would end up with our debt rising by just $4 trillion over the next four years rather than $4.4 trillion. Wow. I mean, seriously, wow. This is what America and Americans are reduced to? Whether we should steal from the future $4 trillion of $4.4 trillion? Maybe what we really need IS a cliff, and with just a sliver of luck we will be awakened from the impact when we hit bottom.

Sorry, but you leftists, and also you conservatives who also claim to want more and more government (for yourselves, not for other people), need to be told no. You need to be told to do more for yourself. You need to be told you are immoral, yes, IMMORAL, for wanting to be given something paid for by someone else so your lives can be better today. You who do this are immoral.

Robert1717

America has voted. The overwhelming majority of American voters voted for Obama....

Take another toke 'Robert'...look at the facts..."overwhelming"???? LOL....we're neck in neck and both of us has everything to lose.

1.99

Avenger

Your survey is NO EXCUSE that WE THE PEOPLE did NOT PAY for the WARS that BUSH got us into.

However WE THE PEOPLE overwhelmingly agree that it is time for the 2% to pay more.

ALSO

WE THE PEOPLE ALL PAY TAXES.

We are taxed on utilities, our phone, the gas we put in our cars, our water, our home property, our schools, our clothes, our shoes, our birthday cards, our holiday wrapping paper, our toilet paper.

All that leaves 47% of the population struggling.

Dangerous Mind

The best part is these do-nothings have no room to negotiate. None. The polls are clear they will be blamed if we do go over the cliff. It's actually kind of a good thing because they lose their 1% tax breaks anyway. And since we all know these doofuses are incapable of compromising a hair's breadth..... off the cliff we go.

Damn Straight! "Danger Cliff Ahead" ...hit the gas, we've seen this movie before!

Rich-281385

We are in an amazing amount of trouble. It's all of our own doing too. Some above want other people's taxes to go up so they can continue to have their own free stuff, maintaining this will fix our economy.

Talk to the hand...we're going over!

See you on the flipside!

There seems to be some mistake about who the "core" of the Republican Party is. The top 1% doesn't dictate everything for the party, especially when you look at the number of voting constituency in the recent Presidential election. I think the majority of conservatives are more concerned with fiscal responsibility, a reduction in the abuse of entitlement programs and for some logical plan to help safeguard the borders and encourage LEGAL immigration.

FrankLtree, you speak for the rational and disenfranchised currently, moderates are gaining a voice in the GOP and sanity will have to prevail but not without cutting the cord on the tea party zealouts.

FrankLtree

There seems to be some mistake about who the "core" of the Republican Party is. The top 1% doesn't dictate everything for the party, especially when you look at the number of voting constituency in the recent Presidential election. I think the majority of conservatives are more concerned with fiscal responsibility, a reduction in the abuse of entitlement programs and for some logical plan to help safeguard the borders and encourage LEGAL immigration.

Really Frank? Where are they...sure as hell not in Congress! The Fiscal Conservative moderates have all been primary'd out or retired. If the Republicans you described are the majority, they are a majority without a voice. I always wondered where the "Silent Majority" went.

RI Mom

Avenger

Your survey is NO EXCUSE that WE THE PEOPLE did NOT PAY for the WARS that BUSH got us into

Oh Avenger...please read without prejudice...it's important that the FACTS get out. NOW Syria has those weapons that Iraq dumped BEFORE the war...LOOK AT THE FACTS, READ THE HEADLINES..you've been duped. And now after 4 years of nothing we have 4 more of the same....READ

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

47% not paying taxes means there are way too many who cannot sustain the cost of living with their employment. You want to cut pay, this republicans is what you get, a nation needing subsidized.

And where were all those WMD in Iraq? Oh thats right, they didn't exist and as Germany begged Bush to give them time for weapons inspection we went into a war and we kill at will, for no other reason than to suit Dick Cheneys defense corporation. Bush and Cheney are wanted in 147 countries for war crimes, they were tried and convicted of war crimes.

Stop the BS please, war is not a way of life.

U.S. growth in the '50s had nothing to do with tax policy - in fact, it was in spite of tax policy. Rather, it had everything to do with the fact the U.S. had little in the way of international competition in the immediate post-war years. The boom ended when Japan, Germany and then Korea came roaring back in the late '60s the '70s and '80s. Barring the U.S. prevaling in a WWIII scenario, the U.S. will never see that kind of growth again. That period is no benchmark, given it was an anomoly in U.S. economic history.

I'm perfectly aware of that (although you fail to mention that competition was already quite strong by the '80s and '90s, periods of very high job creation and higher tax rates than today — you could even make a case that other first-world countries were relatively stronger then than now), but let's clarify things: I didn't say that growth in the '50s was due to high tax rates, I said that there was much growth in spite of them, so they're not the best example of what the purported doomsday scenario caused by higher tax rates look like.

Plus, international competition hasn't got much to do with the share of the country's wealth (and growth) that is held (and enjoyed) by the upper 1% vs. the middle class. Back in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, the middle class grew along with the upper class. The last three decades, it has remained stagnant as the upper class has exploded. I'm just saying — precedent does not support the idea that the middle class benefits much from tax cuts for the rich.

General Electric (GE) pays no oncome tax and actually gets money from the government. GE's CEO is Jeffery Immelt and is on Pres Obama's Economic Advisory board.

Does anyone else see the problem here? Poor people (Democrats) want free money from the government. We will have a Republic until (probably now) the poor people realize that they can vote themselves a "pay raise" from the public treasury.

The solution: if you do not pay anything in taxes you do not get to vote.

You really can't compare the recovery effort of post world war 2 with now, the effective tax rates were not to spend and put us in deficit back then. Right now, we have a no tax and spend policy, which is only slightly less terrible than tax and spend policy. We have a revenue problem and we have a spending problem, both issues have to be addressed.

So GE pays no taxes and your answer is not to allow the poor to vote? Unconstitutional garbage. I know plenty of democrats that are not poor, middle class and there are even some wealthy ones. Trolling Limbaugh BS makes you sound stupid Andrew Dickens.

Do you even realize that almost all parts are made in Asia now? This just didn't happen during Bush it happened mid 90's til now. Just people didn't care til it started effecting jobs they wanted. My family had sent business overseas since 90's and they now make their products their also. Allot of companies had to do this all over the world. It just funny that no one fusses about Walmart and the other companies they regular use that do the same. They don't seem to get the products are so cheap because they are done there.

And we reward sending the jobs to China with tax breaks, yah that makes sense.

Jan-21270

And where were all those WMD in Iraq?

...please read without prejudice...it's important that the FACTS get out. NOW Syria has those weapons that Iraq dumped BEFORE the war...LOOK AT THE FACTS, READ THE HEADLINES..you've been duped. And now after 4 years of nothing we have 4 more of the same....READ

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

Here Grover Norquist is the deed to the united states of america, you successfully bought the GOP and since those loser democrats can't vote anymore its yours. Geesh I can't believe people buy that kind of garbage.

Justoneguy, I have read them and I was very much a voting adult when Clinton was president, just because some politician says something does not make it true. I am more inclined to trust Clinton than Pelosi or Albright, but these are excuses for war not hard evidence of WMD's when we did not allow the weapons inspections to finish. I have a longer memory than a gnat, I remember what the excuses were for Iraq. We are there, its done but I will remind you that while its easy to want to get involved with Syria, when we did that with Afghanistan we created Bin Laden. You have to be careful who you hand weapons to, you might just be making worse than what is there.

Sounds like a continuation of another 4 years of debt, unemployment and deceit, but hey, our fearless leaders will still get their paychecks, so no worries for them.

Enjoy the ride ........ it's gonna' get a lot worse before it gets any better.

Brooklyn, the house controls the purse strings. Basic American government 101, the president is in no way a monarch. Three branches to be a check and balance, executive, legislative and judicial.

The fact that republicans need Obama to hold their dicks while they pee is a little weird. They have been the worst congress in history, its their job to pass the budget. I blame all of congress, not one of them have shown leadership the last 4 years. Obama had 26 days of freedom in his presidency, 300 filibusters is earning filibuster reform that to me is a mistake because it has been abused. If you want to hand out blame, it goes to all of capital hill.

I hope Boner feels Eric Cantor breathing down his neck because if Boner is unsuccessful bringing this to a satisfactory conclusion, Cantor will run against him and Cantor is one of the darlings of the extreme right.

Core Principle ????? Is that the one that says "protect the rich and the heck with the 47%?

Dear republicans, you have no principles. only anger and sadness.

According to CBO if the Obama jobs bill had passed our unemployment numbers would be closer to six, it never even got to the house floor. Don't tell me Obama hasn't done anything, and is to blame for everything, its simply not true. He has made mistakes but republicans have a really bad habit of making messes and then blaming it on democrats.

KimH Cantor bailed on Norquist, he is fron northern VA. He wasn't going to last a moderate electorate taking the hard stands. Boehner is a piss poor leader, I think its time to replace him.

Yesterday it was the Democrats turn for rhetoric and posturing. Today it is the Republicans turn. Nothing has changed and there is little hope left. BOTH parties are to blame and the quicker Americans realize this the quicker the issue will be resolved.

Jan - I agree about Boehner (can't help calling him Boner) but I'm not sure if Cantor is the man. I don't trust him any more that I trusted Ryan when he started to go a little "moderate" during the campaign. I heard that Ryan is now trying to brand himself as an advocate of the poor. Really???!!!

Jan-21270

Justoneguy, I have read them and I was very much a voting adult when Clinton was president, just because some politician says something does not make it true. I am more inclined to trust Clinton than Pelosi or Albright, but these are excuses for war not hard evidence of WMD's when we did not allow the weapons inspections to finish

Jan....QUIT with the partisanship....just quit it.....it's not beneficial to our interests!!! SYRIA now has those weapons...read the news!

Throw 13 million illegals and their bandito kids off that cliff.................SAVE AMERICA!

DeportObama!

Throw 13 million illegals and their bandito kids off that cliff.................SAVE AMERICA!

I for one am looking forward to the extinction of the Old White Male party...tea bags and all...now THAT will save American!

Deport,

Tell the business and corporate world that hire these illegals, for their own greed, low wages and benefits to stop it. We have a foundry here that has 5 men with the same name and Social Security number. It isn't the presidents fault you fool! It is greed for the rich businesses and corporations. GREED< GREED GREED!

How about some solutions that could be compromise?

1 The President wants to tax the richest 2%. How about give something to the GOP that they want, SS and medicare reform? Make SS and Medicare need based and take it away from the upper 2% that are retired. Someone earning 10% on their 401 or IRA when they clearly have 10 mil, don't need to bleed the system. It was never designed that way.

2 Let all the Bush tax cuts expire for all income groups to the extent of 40% this year, another 10% next year and so on until taxation is what is was before. The economy was just fine before they went into effect. They were only passed to quiet the masses about going to war with Iraq anyway.

3 Cut spending as was originally laid out in the "cliff" because I am tired of government being larger than the masses anyway.

Do all this and you don't have to raise the debt ceiling.

And just for me, include in the legislation that henceforth "ALL" lobbying in Washington is illegal. The reason: We, as citizens, do not have representation is because a finite number of groups is determining policy for all of us.

Now you see why the GOP's becoming an ever-smaller political party. They disagree to agreeing within their own.

Republicans are now bitterly divided in numerous different ways (and they rarely agree on the details of governance or its policies):

• Ayn Rand Libertarians
• Grover Norquist Anti-Tax Fiscal Hardliners
• Religious-Right Social Conservative Bible-Thumpers
• Machiavellian Karl Rove Neocon Schemers
• Tea Party Gun Nuts
• Log Cabin Republicans
• Token-Minority Ultra-Conservatives
• Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck Conspiracy-Spouting Bigots
• Wealthy Romnesians
• Cold War Joe McCarthy/John Birchers
• White Power Supremacists
• Reaganites a.k.a. RINO Moderates

(You can add to this list, if you wish)

Jan,

Boner and Bonehead! Have any of you right wing nuts noticed that the poll on FOX has the Presidents approval going up 4% this week and the Congress dropping from the pitiful 17% to 16.4% Keep it up republicans. The latest poll also has Americans blaming republicans 53% to only 27% if we reach the cliff. Frankly how can the Democrats lose on this?

This last election was supposed to be a pushover, for the GOP. The electorate has changed. AND, if the economy improves, the demographics spell doom for the Republicans. The conservatives need a savior, badly! The trends predict GOP armageddon.

I hope Boehner sticks to his guns. Blame the GOP if you like, I couldn't give a rats ass, it takes two to tango. As far as suicide for the GOP party, don't believe it. #1 the country is pretty evenly divide, #2 the same demographic that turned out for Obama during the election won't bother in two years. You can't count on the black and Hispanic community to turn out as they did in the Presidential election to support a half black candidate. Before you start crying raciest think about what I said. #3 It doesn't matter what these clowns do and they know it. We keep reelecting the same folks over and over. Look at Jesse Jackson Jr., this guy was unable to perform the job he was elected to do for how long before he resigned, stands a good chance of being indicted if he hasn't already been and he overwhelming won re-election. Our government has a spending problem, time to go over the cliff and get this behind us. EVERYONE should pay more to get us out of this mess. Taxing the top 1% will do nothing to fix our problems. Obama is grandstanding and pandering to those who have a problem with those who are successful. None of us are entitled to anything that someone else has earned, period, end of story. Cut the loopholes and move on. Those that are winning about the top 1% have enjoyed more benefits from the same people they hate. They are a pathetic group that should go over a cliff of their own.

Hi Jan,

I'm not sure what you mean by OBL being created by our going into Afghanistan. I can only guess that you mean in the early 1980s when the USSR was there and we were supplying the mujahideen with materiel. Either way (in the case where you think OBL came into being following our 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, you would be provably wrong. It is easily more the case that OBL, like most Islamists, wants a caliphate and so opposes anything which gets in the way of its creation. The USA, in a variety of ways, gets in the way. But our involvement in Afghanistan to help the mujahideen played no part in OBL's "birth".

On the other, more realistic matter, of the revenue and spending problem...I think we have a revenue problem too. Mostly because we have pursued for a few decades now conflicting policies: Pro-growth (more or less) tax policy, but anti-growth regulatory, education, and legal policies (among others). So our economy hasn't had much real, fundamental, growth, and since over time people find ways to adapt to the tax code to shield income from taxation, tax revenue is now about 16% of GDP. It normally hovers around 18% to 19% of GDP, regardless (and this is a crucial fact the left usually overlooks) of the actual marginal tax rates.

You also mentioned spending, and in this area I agree completely. It isn't just that the stimulus was wrong, or that we have too much crony-capitalism, though all of those things are bad for the economy. I know I'll get a debate with people over stimulus spending, but I think the evidence is reasonably clear that the best we can hope from it is to shift GDP from other sources to a government-sponsored source. In reality it likely cost us some jobs, but since all the costs (other than the dollars themselves) are invisible, and all the benefits are visible, most people think it makes great sense.

So I'd like to know what you would cut, other than defense (only because it takes no mental effort to blurt that out). In my case I would cut education spending (we are creating another bubble at the post-secondary level, and at the K-12 level we are already spending yearly amounts per pupil that make it very hard to ever see how we can recover those costs in future taxes paid). I'd also eliminate, entirely, Medicare and Medicaid, along with Obamacare, replacing all three with a refundable tax credit (deals with the poor) for people to purchase their own policy (deals with universality and portability) which is actuarially based and, as well, partly convertable to cash so that consumer savings on approved insurance plans will be shared with the consumer (deals with cost control).

Of course all this makes states and/or the people more empowered, so I readily accept that very few, if any, liberals would support such ideas. I don't think liberals truly support the idea of reducing governmental costs anyhow, so I doubt even any current proposals to cut spending wand, will amount to anything. Same as every promise by the left when taxes, previously, have been raised. It just won't happen. Taxes today for sure, promises for cost containment years from now. Spit in one hand, wish in the other, and see which fills up first, you know?

All things considered, America probably should be allowed to go off the cliff. Only with a severe jolt to the economy (and accordingly, to society) will the electorate wake up to the real fiscal problems this country faces. It won't matter if Republicans get the blame for it; according to the latest polls, they'll be blamed regardless, so what do they have to lose?

Total Federal liabilities come to $87 Trillion. All the "tax the rich" rhetoric in the world doesn't even begin the address the real problem we face. There simply aren't enough rich people to soak. To put it in perspective, $87 Trillion comes to $1.16 million for every household of 4 in this country. Too many years of living beyond our means - starting with FDR and continuing thru the present, "buying" votes with unfunded promises.

Bring on the cliff - it's way past time for a wake-up call...

If the cliff comes, then the spending cuts that the democrats so dread will also take effect.

I do agree with one point of the Rep argument: that is raising taxes is a temporary band aid to the bigger problem of spending. Before the stock market crash of 1929, the wealthiest americans could have paid off the national debt. Now, they cannot even pay for running of the fed government for a year, never mind the national debt. So this blame the boogymen rich is a bunch of BS. The problem is bigger than that.

I am an independent voter who believes we need a third,moderate party BADLY because both the Dem and Rep die hard ideals are obsolete for 21st century America.

Roadkill

This last election was supposed to be a pushover, for the GOP. The electorate has changed. AND, if the economy improves, the demographics spell doom for the Republicans.

What in the world makes you think after four years of this Administration that SUDDENLY the economy is going to improve 'road'?? Get a grip...NOTHING has improved and this Administration has had carte blanche on spending!

@ SabothAndHeat, you are asking me why I wrote, YOU DON'T HAVE THE BALLS FOR IT? Are you kidding me? GOING OFF THE "FISCAL CLIFF" by doing nothing, because you don't get your way! Don't you read?

Mouth oozing??? Of course, I am!!!! I for one, don't have a problem with us doing away with ALL OF THE BUSH TAX CUT!!! I believe the recession will be minimal. In this particular case, the Republican politicians, the Tea Party, and the GOP sheeps will get the brunt of the blame. The people who will be in the most worry will be the people in the financial and securities market. It will result in a major correction in our political system toward center after 30 years of lean toward conservative politician.

Going over the cliff: It does not mean we will default. It simply means that we will go back to pre Bush Tax Cut and cutting back many programs (across the board). It is not the same as the cliff that we face one year ago.... During that meeting, it was agreed upon, that we will face this default solution, if a new solution does not get passed.

So here we are... Like several on the vine, I don't have a problem going off the cliff. It will help the voters to clear several deadbeats off their districts. It forces closures to many unnecessary programs. It allow us to address the problem of excessive defense spending. It forces the States to address their own deficit situation (especially in the Red States) that are actually receiving more fundings from the Federal Govt than they are paying into....

Having the Republicans to volunteer to accept the responsiblity for going off the deep end, is just icing on the cake.

I heard someone recently say that "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Do you hear that, you Republican politicians? If you blow this one then it's gonna cost you even more than the last election did. Let's hope you all have some brains to go along with your arrogance.

The stage is now set. The blame is solely on the GOP and Boehner is coming under tremendous pressure from his own party AND by Obama as expected. Obama will, once again, get his way by fooling the American people and obviously the Democrats and many Republicans that the tax increase on the top 2% of wealthy Americans is the only way OR it is "off the cliff."

He is unwilling to compromise, as he led folks to believe while campaigning, and is focused only on tax increases for the wealthy.

Today, we learned that he has borrowed more money since becoming president, his first term, than ALL presidents combined. He continues to spend and has no intentions of stopping.

We are borrowing 3.3 BILLION every day to support his out of control spending.

The FED continues to print money in record amounts which in turn devalues the dollar and if continued will make the dollar worthless. This includes all of your investments, savings, 401k's, IRA's, etc.

Obama is again campaigning for his tax increases and has gained the support once again of many, many folks who have no clue as to the serious financial problems facing our Nation. Quite frankly, most Democrats and some Republicans are also falling for his rhetoric.

Many folks are thriving and doing well today but there's coming a day when the Obama regime will be remembered by us all.

" ... Our credit score will be subject to a downgrade. Stocks will plummet. The dollar will weaken. Companies will refuse to hire. ... "

You will go blind. Hair will grow on the palm of your hand. You will get buckteeth. Santa won't bring you presents. People rode dinosaurs. The check is in the mail. I could go on and on and .......

But then none of the things on my list of what will happen are based in fact either. But are based on fear, hate, and most importantly on ignorance.

Huh. Imagine that.

Total Federal liabilities come to $87 Trillion. All the "tax the rich" rhetoric in the world doesn't even begin the address the real problem we face.

I love these comparisons. Compare a company's future gross liabilities with a plan to bring in some more revenue to make it look more meaningless. Yeah, sure, sixteen-year-old Timmy is facing about $15 million in liabilities for the rest of his life (we won't talk about his future income because, apparently, it's irrelevant), why even take a job that will only provide him $800/month for three months the next summer? I mean, what dent is $2,400 supposed to make to $15 million in lifetime liabilities?

Do you see how unproductive that mentality is? The fact is, if we dismiss every possible revenue increase or spending cut just because, individually, they will do very little to solve the problem, then, sure as shootin', we're not getting anywhere. Especially if we're comparing them to all future liabilities in gross terms.

I'll tell you why we shouldn't go over the cliff (or, if we do, why we shouldn't just sit around waiting for it to take effect): because we don't want another recession. Because these are real lives we're talking about, real mouths to be fed, real tables to put food on. This is not some stupid simulation of game theory or a poker game. This is a real economy and a real country that needs these people to do their work.

Here is the thing people like kkwilson and SabothAndHeat are still trying to pull one over on the people with the Republican Rhetoric (more specific the Tea Party BS)...

"The stage is now set. The blame is solely on the GOP and Boehner..." : TRUTH => Both the House and the Senate had over 300+ days to come to terms on the budget since the temp agreement. The did not need the White House. The White House simply sign off or not sign off. However the budget must first go through both houses! Yet, nada for 300+ days. The Ryan plan was DOA. It was told as such prior to its depature from the House. However, the House still chose to stick to their agendas of continuing funding their campaign financers through tax payers.... Too bad. the deadline is here. Fool us once, shame on you, fool us twice??? You must be basing your benchmark on fellow Republicans.

"...the tax increase on the top 2% of wealthy Americans is the only way OR it is "off the cliff."" TRUTH => Yes, which part of it don't you understand? You want to give a tax cut to All of the Americans? YES, it is done!!! It is done on the 1st $200,000 earned. The rest is then progressively taxed at the pre-Bush tax cut rate. Now, I really don't rememeber that many top 1% crying during the Clinton's presidency...

"He is unwilling to compromise, as he led folks to believe while campaigning, and is focused only on tax increases for the wealthy.": TRUTH=> The President did compromise. He did continue the tax cuts and the deductions to ALL AMERICANS! The difference is that he will not extend the additional tax cut to the earnings above $200,000. Why???? BECASE THE TAX REFUND WILL BE GREATER THAN TAX GENERATED. WHICH MEANS THERE WILL BE AN ADDITIONAL DEFICIT. However, it is now clear that Republicans though they claim that they don't want deficit, but they still choose to vote for enlarging our govt deficits... In reality, the Repbulicans don't do what they claim.

"...Today, we learned that he has borrowed more money since becoming president, his first term, than ALL presidents combined. He continues to spend and has no intentions of stopping..." TRUTH => Every president since President Hoover spend more than his predecessor. However President Obama's increase in spending % adjusted to inflation is the lowest than any previous president since Hoover. In fact nearly every Democratic president has a lower spending % than any of their predeessing Republican President when adjusted for inflation.

"Obama is again campaigning for his tax increases and has gained the support..." TRUTH => As opposed to campaigning to the Republican politicians? Remember, he did that nearly 450 days ago, without any positive effects. In fact, the very few Republican who were willing to listen, were blasted by the fellow Conservative Right, and several have retire or planned their retirement. I for one is glad that our President is not stupid... Or go back to the Post WWII days... Oh wait, the rich were taxed at 50+%... Many people like the hardcore Tea Party memebers are simply mad because people are not falling for the Republican rhetorics. Hence, they must be falling for the rhetorics by the Democrats... The problem is that many of the extremely polarizing party memeber fail to analyze the truth the rhetorics, because there are TRUE RHETORICS!!! Not all rhetorics are to be condemned simply because they are spouted by the opponents. Unfortuantely, it is clear who is full of contempt.

"Many folks are thriving and doing well today but there's coming a day when the Obama regime will be remembered by us all." TRUTH => If you have not remember the past 4 years and the 8 years prior, then you and yours akin are truely LOST. There will always be ones who do well and one who do worse. Unfortunately, for the past 12 years, there are much more ones who do worse than better. It is ashame, that you and your party still refuse to FIX THE PROBLEM, BUT TO CONTINUE TO BLAME THE PEOPLE for the problem. Again, it should be crystal clear to ALL AMERICANS, that the current Republicans and their leadership have NO FAITH IN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. They don't have faith in your decision making, and that is why they are telling you how you need them (instead of telling you the issue). They are importing workers, because they don't have faith in the American education system (instead of trying to improve our education system). They chose to export our technologies for a profit (they realize these run at profits are short, because the terms of the CEO's are short,and their pays are based on profit rather than the companies' long term returns)...

It makes some sense to all join hands and go over this "fiscal cliff" together. Taxing "the rich" to even extortionate levels is not going to put more than a dent in the deficit...it's political catnip for the simple minded but, by itself, is futile. Besides, FAIRNESS requires that all contribute...especially ALL those
who benefited from the "Bush" tax changes. So let the rates go back to where they were for eveyone. Let all those tax "credits" that result in refunds (to people who never even paid federal income tax) expire.
Restore the FICA payroll taxes which are endangering solvency of the Social Security trust funds. End the Unemployment Comp that never ends and encourages people to remain unemployed or work under the table. And stop shielding people (primarily in states where the tax rates are too high) from the impact of the AMT.

And, since BALANCE is the other mantra de jour, if they can't agree on other equivalent spending cuts, let the sequestration go forward. It's a meat axe approach but better than nothing in cutting spending. The Congress can just refuse to spend any proceeds from the tax increases which can then flow automatically to debt reduction rather than increased government spending.

It is complete BS that the wealthy cannot be taxed. They were in the Eisenhower era at at a rate many times more than they have been since. Where are they going to go (in the first or even the up and coming second world) where taxes are lower and where they do not have to hire body guards to walk their dog in a park? Either they are selfish jerks who care not about this country, in which case good riddance; but, um, do not even THINK about marketing your products here ever again...or they can stick around and be part of our team. END of story.

When are republicans going to learn the meaning of compromise? This is getting old. I say, fire 'em all! Maybe then we'd actually get something done.

Cincinnati Rick, I for one, don't beleive life is fair. It is about fair play. It is the job of our government to provide fair play. That actually means progressive taxation. The BS about flat tax is simply BS. If there is flat tax then every penny earned should be taxed equally. If equity is to be fair, then people should be allowed to claim bankrupcy on their credit card as corporations is able to claim without hurting their personal credit. Corporations should not be treat as same as people, becuase they should be able to go to jail....

Life is not fair. There are certain people who use our govt and our tax payer paid facilities more than others... they should be taxed more. So, why the BS loopholes??? Because they threaten to go overseas and avoid paying taxes, while continue to profit off Americans through the use of tax payer utilities and roadway systems? And then pass out dividents and securities options to their management teams and investors at a discounted tax rate of less than the regular tax payers???

NO, you're jump off the cliff blindly... but, I welcome you to jump.

BTW, the Republicans will blink. The reasons are;

• If they don't they will have officially doomed their Republican candidates for the midterm election.
• If they don't they will loose candidates and current moderates to Democrats.
• If they don't they will also loose the retiring openings to Democrats (even in the redistricted Republican strongholds).
• If they don't they will not gain any position with both the people they represent (simple popularity).
• If they don't they will loose popularity with the coporate that they normally would receive for their next campaign, becuase of recession they will have caused and their loss of re-electibility in their districts.
• If they don't, they will most likely face the reality of less members and voters. With the less party members, they will for certain not win Senate nor White House in the next 8 years.
• If they do, they can show that they are capable of negotiation.
• If they do they will have a chance at re-election (especially during the midterm).
• If they do, they will be able to live and fight another day.
• If they do, they will face a fractured Republican party, but the fracture may be short lived as idiolog such as Canto rand Ryan will be washed out of the system, becuase their ineffectiveness to pass. Eventually the Extremes will be stripped of their power and influences in the coming 6 years. Republcans will have a chance at the White House in 6 years...
• If they do, they will have a fractured party, but not a broken party. A greater chance of recovery... Yes, you can blame Ronald Regan for all this, as he is the one who gave the power the Religious Conservatives and the Lobbysts. And you can also thank Richard Nixon for his willingness to take in the Conservative South (Dexiecrats) who were unwilling to part with their culture based on race...

YES, IT IS THAT SIMPLE why the Republicans will blink, because the Republican Politicians are not stupid as their followers.

I think the song and dance for the TeaParty freaks is just that. An act by the more mainstream Republicans who know they must compromise on the tax cuts for people making $250K and over.

Late today 4 Tea Reps were kicked off budget committees by their own leaders, this is in preparation for the deal to be done.

I think Boehner and Obama know this and have even discussed it, the reps need to look good but will just package it in a certain way. Getting rid of the extremists on budgeting committees is just a part of the process. I expect the frame work of the deal is already done. Expect it to be announced late on a friday closer to Christmas. When everyone is more distracted by the holidays and the light news Saturday and weekend can make it old news by the following Monday.

Why do you think thy floated the concept of the mortgage deduction being eliminated or reduced? Not because they have any intention of that, just so you have a sense of relief when they don't. That is politics, and public opinion.

Being a 1%er as they call me, I voted for this against my own self interest, I am am American first and we must not keep the middle and lower classes out of the picture, they must have opportunity, hope and a sense that we do care. I am willing to do my part.

Four House Republicans have been stripped of their committee seats after it was determined by the Republican conference that they were "not team players," a GOP leadership aide told NBC News.

The decision made Monday during a meeting of the Republican Steering Committee strips Reps. David Schweikert (R-AZ) and Walter Jones (R-NC) of their seats on the Financial Services Committee, and Reps. Justin Amash (R-MI) and Tim Huelskamp (R-KS) of their seats on the House Budget Committee.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03/15653445-gop-strips-4-of-house-committee-seats

And the wall comes tumbling down...

@ moshuluu

I guess I hit a nerve.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

@ Thturd

Argue with the numbers. Math won't pick sides.

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Social Security and Medicare/Medicade Tax income 2010- $865 B

Social Security and Medicare /Medicade Spending 2010- $1,494 B

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Total Federal Tax income 2010- $2,162 B

Total Federal spending 2010- $3,456 B

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Let's leave Medicare/Medicade and SS alone. Lets cut other places.

Let's cut Defense spending by half, from $689 B to $329 B

Let's cut Discretionary spending from $660 B to $0 B

Were still $305 B short of balancing our budget.

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This doesnt even account in for the upcoming Obamacare add-ons. Simply taxing the rich more won't fix the problem, period.

@ Thturd

Heres the status of some of the Democrats plans to continue "regulating" America.

1. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. (In progress.)

2. Abolition of all right of inheritance. (Occupy Wall Street (99%ers) out right asked for this.)

3. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. (Complete)

4. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. (Liberal media complex is defacto a puppet of the our Socialist White House.)

5. Free education for all children in public schools. (Complete)

P.S. This list comprises 5 of 10 of Karl Marx's steps to destroy the Free Trade that has made America strong and virulent.

The Communist Manifesto...your talking points.

Andres: "I love these comparisons. Compare a company's future gross liabilities with a plan to bring in some more revenue to make it look more meaningless. Yeah, sure, sixteen-year-old Timmy is facing about $15 million in liabilities for the rest of his life (we won't talk about his future income because, apparently, it's irrelevant), why even take a job that will only provide him $800/month for three months the next summer? I mean, what dent is $2,400 supposed to make to $15 million in lifetime liabilities?"

Andres, I won't suggest you're math-challenged, but you may not understand net present value of cash. Based on the annual average accrued liabilities of just the two largest entitlement programs, plus the annual cash deficit, an additional $8 trillion per year in revenue will need to be raised. No need to re-invent the wheel....again, per Cox & Archer:

"Nothing like that $8 trillion amount is available for the IRS to target. According to the most recent tax data, all individuals filing tax returns in America and earning more than $66,193 per year have a total adjusted gross income of $5.1 trillion. In 2006, when corporate taxable income peaked before the

recession, all corporations in the U.S. had total income for tax purposes of $1.6 trillion. That comes to $6.7 trillion available to tax from these individuals and corporations under existing tax laws. In short, if the government confiscated the entire adjusted gross income of these American taxpayers, plus all of the corporate taxable income in the year before the recession, it wouldn't be nearly enough to fund the over $8 trillion per year in the growth of U.S. liabilities.

Now, one might think the alternative to cutting spending would be intentional inflation - in other words reduce the liability by reducing the incremental value of a dollar. Two things wrong with that theory in this case:

1. Inflation is an indistriminate "tax" on everyone, arguably hitting those at the low end of the income scale the hardest.

2. Because the social security and medicare entitlements are supposed to keep pace w/inflation (at least in principle), the obligation will rise in step with inflation. Unlike current government bonds, you can't "inflate-away" these liabilities w/o defaulting.

@ Rob

Echoes of the Weimer Republic are knocking at America's doors.

Funny you mention it Allen. I was thinking the same thing the other day: how the Political class is like the Hollywood stars class. They both put on a pretty good show for us, and most of it is unreal.