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Subscribe to RSSUpdated 11:43 am ET President Barack Obama’s fiscal cliff negotiator, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, predicted on NBC’s Meet the Press Sunday that congressional Republicans will accept Obama’s plan to raise income tax rates and limit deductions on people making $200,000 and over. “I think we’re going to get there,” he told NBC’s David Gregory.
He said if Republican leaders have their own alternative ways to reduce federal deficits, they need to offer Obama their proposals.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner made the Sunday morning talk show rounds, saying "the only thing that stands in the way of a deal right now is if a group of Republican members decide they're going to block a deal." NBC's Mike Viqueira reports.
“We need to know what they’re prepared to do on (tax) rates and revenues and we need to know what they’re prepared to do on the spending side,” he said.
So far, Geithner said, they have not said “who should pay higher taxes.”
In contrast, Geithner said, Obama has been specific, for example, about how he’d shift more of the burden of paying for Medicare to affluent retirees: his fiscal year 2013 budget proposal would increase premiums and co-payments for higher-income Medicare beneficiaries, starting in 2017.
“If the Republicans don’t like those ideas and they want to do it differently (or) they want to go beyond that, then they have to tell us what makes sense for them and then we can take a look at it,” he said.
Geithner is leading the bargaining with GOP leaders on how to avoid the “fiscal cliff” –Washington jargon for the combination of tax increases and spending reductions which are scheduled to occur under current law at the end of the year and which the Congressional Budget Office has said would tip the economy into a recession.
Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and Sens. Bob Corker and Claire McCaskill detail the ins and outs of the efforts to reach a deal to avert the fiscal cliff.
With 29 days left to reach an agreement on avoiding the fiscal cliff, neither GOP leaders nor the president seem to be taking steps toward an accord.
Two senators who were re-elected last month, Sen. Claire McCaskill, D- Mo., and Sen. Bob Corker, R- Tenn., also appeared on Meet the Press to comment on the fiscal cliff negotiations.
Corker said he supported “closing loopholes” which he called "a pro-growth way of getting more revenues from wealthy Americans." He predicted that ultimately “cooler heads will prevail” and the two sides will agree on a deal.
Corker said that in the fiscal cliff bargaining Obama had not yet proposed additional curbs on Medicare and other entitlement spending and he predicted “you’re not going to have a deal until that happens.”
McCaskill said if current tax rates expire at year end, then “we would come back in January first thing and pass a tax cut” along the lines of Obama’s proposal. “Are the Republicans going to vote ‘no’ on that?” she asked incredulously.
On Medicare, McCaskill said she would support “more aggressive means testing from higher co-pays from those people who can afford it.” In his Fiscal Year 2013 budget blueprint Obama proposed higher premiums and co-payments for higher-income Medicare recipients, cutting $28 billion in federal spending over ten years.
Americans for Tax Reform founder Grover Norquist discusses remarks made by Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner on Meet the Press.
But liberal Democrats have opposed that idea, saying it could erode support for Medicare among upper-income people, leading them to opt out of the program. “This will end Medicare as we know it,” said Rep. Allyson Schwartz, D- Pa., last spring when Republicans adopted Obama’s higher premium and co-pays idea as part of the negotiations over how to offset the cost of cutting the Social Security payroll tax.
Obama’s initial fiscal cliff bargaining position has been that income tax rates and tax preferences enacted since 2001 should remain in effect for single earners making less than $200,000 a year and for married couples filing joint return who make less than $250,000.
In a statement Sunday, House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi urged House Speaker John Boehner to bring to the floor a bill already passed by the Senate to continue current income tax rates for people making less than $200,000.
She said if Boehner "refuses to schedule this widely-supported bill for a vote, Democrats will introduce a discharge petition to automatically bring to the floor the Senate-passed middle class tax cuts." A discharge petition is procedure by which a bill may be forced out of a committee and onto the House floor for a vote. The Democrats would need to get 218 members of the House to sign a discharge petition in order for this procedure to succeed.
Republican leaders oppose any tax increase, although they would agree to a redesign of the income tax system that could raise more revenues for the federal government by ending or curtailing some deductions and other tax breaks.
The GOP leaders also want some plan for reductions in spending on Medicare and other entitlements.
The fiscal cliff refers to:
- The expiration at year end of tax reductions enacted in 2001, 2003, 2009, and 2010.
- A 27 percent cut in Medicare’s payment rates for doctors’ services.
- A ten percent cut in defense spending and an 8 percent cut in nondefense spending -- cuts mandated by the Budget Control Act which Obama signed into law in 2010 as a part of a deal with Republicans to get them to agree to raise the federal government’s borrowing limit.
- The end of emergency unemployment benefits.
- The end of a temporary reduction of 2 percentage points in the Social Security payroll tax which was in effect this year and in 2011.
In addition the Affordable Care Act will impose, starting in January, a new 3.8 percent Medicare payroll tax on income above $200,000 and will expand the tax to cover investment income as well as wage and salary income.
About two-thirds of the fiscal cliff comes from the impending tax increases scheduled to take effect at the beginning of 2013 under current law.
According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, "Taxes would rise by more than $500 billion in 2013—an average of almost $3,500 per household—as almost every tax cut enacted since 2001 would expire."
A report issued in October by the Center found that almost 90 percent of Americans would see their taxes rise unless Congress and the president agree to change current law. "For most households, the two biggest increases would be the expiration of the temporary cut in Social Security taxes and the expiration of the 2001/2003 tax cuts," the report said.
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Going after rich people isn't enough. We need more, much more. The fiscal cliff looks like fiscal sanity to me. Will it push us into another recession? Maybe, but what's the alternative? Continue to burn the candle at both ends until we have nothing?
12 years of tax breaks.2 wars on a credit card..nah that's not enough huh
You pay for your damn war
oh that's right you want to pay for the wars..i mean debt with our benefits huh
Here is an idea to keep from going over the fiscal cliff.........................
STOP SPENDING!! STOP SPENDING!! STOP SPENDING!!
QUIT WASTING MONEY!! QUIT WASTING MONEY!! QUIT WASTING MONEY!!
What many forget is when the stimulus money (just over $800 Billion) was agreed in 2007 it was meant to be for just that ONE YEAR!! But Obama then put that money in his "spending". So EVERY year we have spent $800 Billion MORE than what was spent traditionally.
Remove that $800 Billion like it was SUPPOSED to and do you realize our deficit is only about $300 Billion? Similar to the deficits during the Bush administration?
Reduce our spending by that $800 Billion that wasn't intended to continue and even I can get on board with tax increases on EVERYBODY to make up the difference. But to spend the equivalent of a "stimulus package" EVERY year for the last five years THEN tell us that raising taxes just on the "wealthy" (that will bring in at best only $50 Billion) is a solution?
So the answer?
STOP SPENDING!! STOP SPENDING!! STOP SPENDING!!
QUIT WASTING MONEY!! QUIT WASTING MONEY!! QUIT WASTING MONEY!!
Elvis I agree with you but you didn't go far enough. Go back to Vietnam, How what that war paid for? They took the money from SS. And never paid back the IOU's And I heard Bonner say this morning that SS didn't have any money in it. Well We all have to understand who makes money from Wars. The rich do. The Rich got much richer from all these wars, From Vietnam until today. Every war we have engaged in were not paid for. For all the things we can not afford, We can't afford to feed the Military complex as we know it today. I can't afford to buy a new truck today, Can you? If your like most of the answer is no. Why is it we keep building new Tanks after the Army has said they don't need anymore of them. Answer Corporate welfare. Man the Congress got busy and told the Army what they needed. How many times have the Rep's told the President he had to lesson the the Generals. We need to shift that money to where it is needed, same with Plains and for Ships and anything else. We do not need a military that is bigger then the rest of the world combined. Didn't Bonner say we are broke? Yes he did. When your broke you have to cut every where. Cut to the military will hurt the rich people. We can't have that now can we. But we always cut things that help the working people. I say let us go over the cliff. Then come back and give the tax cuts to the middle class, But not the $2,500 or so, do maybe like $1,500. That way we all are doing our part. It is going to take that. We all have to work hard and pay a Little more. The faster we get things back to normal, the faster we all we be better off.
The GOP only ideas are the 1% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why do they continue to say that the american people do not understand the tax cuts?????????? Why don't they do what they say when running for office. Walk the walk. The American people understand that our congress does not know how to work as a team. They are just out for them selves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
chuck, your reasoning is faulty. Yes, the defense industry makes some people rich, but it also provides well-paying jobs for America. That's not to say I don't think it should be cut, I do, but understand those cuts hurt the little people more than the big fish. I don't want excess tanks and aircraft carriers any more than the next person, but the people building them make good money.
Pro Business more like no Business
when we the middle class are gone who;s going to pay the bills?
AG 99 I'm tied of paying for your mistakes and cutting S.S Medicare you Republicans are morons!
I thought that Geithner WAS a Republican....
Our leaders talk & talk and can't come to an agreement. Meanwhile we're running out of time until this fiasco will unfold and will find ourselves in a massive recession, worse than before. The answer to this will be to run our deficit up higher bailing out everybody and hanging on by our fingernails so we don't become like Greece and other Euro countries going down the tubes. As predicted, the next four years are turning out like the last four- this is what the voters voted for.
you have that right..they need to pay for there own mess up
40 years: What makes you think I'm a Republican? Do you even know what the fiscal cliff is? Try doing some reading first before you make silly statements like that, or are you against restoring funding to SS/Medicare and cutting DoD funding?
he is a tea nut..who's party runs the republican party better
probusiness has it right: quit wasting money quit wasting money quit wasting money on tax cuts for people who don't need them. Stop spending stop spending stop spending on tax cuts for the wealthy.
hahahaha I love it
Frist of all AG-99 the way you talk you sound like a Republican you act like Republican there fore you must BE a Republican!
Second I know what the fiscal cliff means do you?I'm just tied of the rich holding it over are head and blackmailing the middle class!
Snakebone - letting people keep more of that they earn is *not* a government expenditure.
The answer to fixing our debt and deficits is to CUT SPENDING.
Did you know that there have been four years with $1 trillion annual deficits in our nation's history, and ALL FOUR have occurred under President Barack Obama??
CUT SPENDING.
Yes, so let's cut the Defense budget back to the total of the next 4 nations combined, and tax the 700 Trillion derivatives and high speed trades industries at a few cents on the dollar. Put tax rates back to Nixon levels, cut Medicare fraud and stupid duplication, renegotiate the Medicare drug plan, and we're well on the way to balancing the budget. It's just not that hard.
Why did the GOP lose the Middle Class Vote, American voters mandate was to extend existing tax cuts for all but upper incomes, but the GOP wants to cut into our entitlements to insure tax cuts for the Mega Rich 1%, it's become clear that this Party is for the Wealthy only !!!!!!!!!!!!
ProBusiness exclaims:
I suspect he's a Fox News drone. I have a quiz question for you: Precisely how much "wasteful" spending do you attribute to Obama's administration?
Before you answer, let me first say that about $3T of the $5T in debt that Fox News attributes to Obama was due to programs/policies already in place before Obama took office. That is, it wouldn't have mattered a whit who was in the White House in 2008 - that $3T growth in debt would have occurred anyway.
So if you want cuts in federal spending then pray tell - let's hear where the cuts should be and how much will they save.
Chuck
Reagan was the FIRST president to actually borrow the social security money.
Johnson just took it out of the lockbox and put it in general funds to make the funds look better.
http://suite101.com/article/us-govt-borrows-from-social-security-to-make-minimum-payments-a320735
Patriotic, if the GOP is the party of the "wealthy", then what is the Democrat party?
There are 23 million Americans struggling to find work, and 47 million Americans on food stamps. Plus we are $16.4 trillion in debt.
This has all happened under Democrat rule in the Senate (2006-present), Democrat rule in the House (2006-10) and under this President (2008-present).
The Democrats seem to be the party of driving hardworking people into joblessness and poverty!
So Obama offers a plan of ridiculous tax hikes, dictator powers, and ludicrous stimulus spending and then says, "Well, Republicans, what's your plan?"
And the liberals scream, "See Republicans...He has a plan and we support it 100%".
Goes to show the intelligence of America.
And please spare me your racist, Tea bagger, Rush loving, Hannity loving, blah blah blah charges....I believe in finance not the Republicans.
Haven't people realized by now exactly where Geithner's loyalties lie and who he was put in that position to protect? Anyone recall what decimated middle America by transferring the money to the top of the pyramid and made the 1% wealthier than they've ever been, called the Wall Street and bank bailouts?
Anything Geithner proposes should be met with suspicion and disdain.
"Geithner said, Obama has been specific, for example, about how he'd shift more of the burden of paying for Medicare to affluent retirees: his fiscal year 2013 budget proposal would increase premiums and co-payments for higher-income Medicare beneficiaries, starting in 2017."
And there's the problem, taxes always go up immediately, theoretical spending cuts are always pushed into the future, and a $50 BILLION dollar union grab bag- er, "stimulus" goes into effect today.
Whatever your political bend, are you really OK with that? Really?
great points, norm903!
there is no time left to do the only sane thing, re-do the infernal tax code and opt for a flat tax; so let us put a band-aid on a mortal wound and tinker with what we have a colossal fub-up; no one in Washington wants to make the hard choices, no one in Washington has a grasp on the real problem; which is un-funded wars, a run away welfare system, a tax code that shifts taxes to the consumers(end users), 21 trillion borrowed from Social security funds since 1966 (which can never be paid back)a dysfunctional health care delivery system(Obamacare just made it worse), foreign aid, no taxes on overseas earnings of corporations, a collapsing infrastructure, after 16 trillion dollars and 40 years, more people in poverty than ever before, a multitude tax system from federal to school boards which take around 54% of all income earned; failure to face the problem ,we will go the same way as Rome, collapse.
Arthur: our budget was balanced at the turn of the millennium. In 2001, republicans decided to spend our 'surplus' on tax cuts for the wealthy, on the theory that such would grow the economy and create new jobs. It didn't. Those tax cuts were supposed to expire. They didn't. The Bush tax cuts are currently the largest contributor to those huge deficits you're talking about. Since we don't have the money to pay for those tax cuts, we are borrowing money to pay for them. Obama campaigned on ending this costly, failed policy. He won the election.
Republicans forced us into a revenue problem, now they scream that we have a spending problem. I think the real problem is that you've got your fingers in your ears yelling 'la la la' while the rest of us are trying to fix the issue.
Although I think his logic is simplistic and unrealistic, I have to agree with Pro Bus on one point. The most effective way to reduce the debt and get us back on the road to financial solvency is to stop wasting money. Our government is a huge bloated money-wasting bureaucracy, filled to the brim with under utilized highly paid people doing pointless ineffective jobs.
The best way to reduce spending is to get rid of the department of Waste, Fraud, and Ineptitude. Of course that takes away most of the work of Congress. Keeping that WFI department fully staffed and funded is their main task. The benefit payments to seniors, doctors, unemployed and struggling poor are miniscule when compared to the tax dollars going to the agency of WFI through earmarks, special concessions, non-competitive contracts, and under the table sweetheart deals. Congressional oversight is a joke. The people we elect to be guardians of the future of our country are busy stuffing their pockets, and giving handouts to their friends.
If somehow, we could instill some degree of integrity in our elected leaders and encourage dedication to improvement on behalf of the people , it would go a long way to solving the problems of solvency and efficient government. Get rid of the WFI. Unfortunately, the chances of that happening are about as realistic as Pro Business' ideas to stop spending.
Medicare is supposed to be a system whereby retirees, who usually acquire many medical conditions as they age, gain policy price protection from the out of control private insurance companies. If my Medicare rates (which I've contributed to for many years and many dollars) go up any higher than they are now, private insurance will become a bargain.
How much is JP Morgan paying us to provide security as they mine for gold in Afghanistan? Let's cut Congresses wages and stop giving untold needless deductions to businesses so their effective tax is $0.00. Let's penalize companies that hide money overseas and not allow them to use OUR courts to bully other countries.
Let's stop giving aid to Mexico, since the wealthiest man in the world lives there and billions are available if they go after their drug gangs.
Let's tax the wealthy "job creators" that aren't creating anything. Put a time limit on the Reps and raise the rate by 1/8% every day they delay resolving this nonsense.
AG comes on here and posts well thought, well sounding, very reasonable posts and gets slammed for it? Now I have seen it all. And the left is the "party of tolerance". Bull@!$%#. AG, regardless of your political affiliation, good points.
40, you're nothing but a mouth breathing bully who needs to get over your jealousy of the rich. Lighten up.
___________________________________________________________________
The best thing that the tax cheater know as Tim Geithner could do for our nation,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,, would be to turn himself in as a criminal who represents the cancerous parasite fictitiously called the "Federal Reserve". (The "Fed" has been stealing money from the American taxpayer for all of it disgusting 100 year charter history.)
It is absolutely inexcusable that Obama has held Tim Geithner as a hold over from the Bush Administration/Criminal Empire after the financial crimes committed during that tenure.
.
The best thing we could do to prevent the inevitable "Fiscal Cliff" (that we are one day bound to hit), is to CLOSE THE FED and prosecute its treasonous administrators.
.
Debi-
I think you really should go back and review your situation. You might find an error somewhere.
And why are we getting the "payroll holiday" again? The govt is trying to underfund SS so they can claim poor and reform the program. End this tax cut NOW!!
Start properly funding this program and stop using underhanded tactics to screw the American people. If we all can't handle a $1,000 tax increase we have bigger problems than an inept government that is cooking the books.
rosieodonnel: Oh, I like you. ;)
40 Yrs seems to be one of those people who thinks if you don't want to continue spending money you don't have, you're an evil Republican who's only goal is to enrich yourself at the expense of the middle class. It's all or nothing with him: give me mine regardless of our country's fiscal status.
Moderation is lost in these times. We can give and take our way back to prosperity, but not if we stick with extremist views.
(Got to go now so I can't contribute any more to this thread.)
LOL......
The headline should read:
That is almost like telling Bernanke to negotiate a Union contract with Boeing.
Yep, here the Progressive agenda comes folks:
This administration with it's Progressive surrogates could care less if America went over the Fiscal Cliff.
how about we give the countries our troops are protecting a invoice cut spending go to a flat tax with no loopholes put the politicians on the same benefits as the people get and if the politicians are not working they don't get paid for that time stop all the travel with body guards we pay for with todays technology they can conduct bussiness from their offices if they were on the same programs the american people are on this would not happen
ido The headline should read:
Republican plan to make The President a "One term President Fails". Republicans eat crow.
Ido: well, since Obama already signed $1T in spending cuts as a 'down payment' in last year's negotiations, and is offering another $1.4T in spending cuts now, along with ending the failed attempt at economic growth by redistributing wealth to the top with the Bush tax cuts, the agenda is
stop redistribution of wealth + cut spending = balanced fiscal sanity.
This administration is out there right now trying to pressure the GOP to the table before the end of the year. That demonstrates that he would rather not go over that cliff.
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Well said AG99. I agree.
We are stupid enough to continue to elect politicians who ALL chant in harmony that they will lower our taxes. But,,,, we are way over 17 T R I L L I O N . DOLLARS in debt, (the "Fed" audit last Sept. turned up ANOTHER 17 trillion in secret loans.)
.
This simple is NOT sustainable and will collasp unless something like the "Fiscal Cliff" forces us ignorant Americans to do something about it now!!!!
.
We hold more debt, dollar per dollar, then the Greeks that we love to criticize for their fiscal responsibility. Wake the fu@k up America !!!
So you Pubbies wanted Obama to lead?
OK. He led.
Cards are on the table.
So now what're you gonna' do,......kick or try?
The Congressional Budget Office reported that Obama's tax the wealthy plan will only cover the deficit for 8 days. So that is not a plan. Where are the spending cuts? He has offered nothing new or nothing not already law... The $1.6T is over what 10 years and starts in 2014? yawn...he used more deficit spending last year alone...
Obama is a joke...zero leadership, just an ongoing popularity contest to lay blame for the coming financial defaults. Obama is responsible for $7T or the $16T of debt. These are the facts and he shows no signs of slowing down the gravy train...
Notice Obama has his pawn Timmy Boy out there spinning the story so if it fails Obama's hands are clean. If this is so important why isn't Obama out there working with Congress, why isn't he leading? Instead he vacations in Hawaii and plays games...
This whole mess is bull@*#*. Each party has pandered to their respective "base" whenever they have been in power in order to stay in power. The government designed by the drafters of our Constitution of "By The PEOPLE, For The PEOPLE" has been corrupted by those who we have (historically) kept in power because WE thought they were doing what was best for US, when all along the majoity of them have been doing their best to insure the maintanence of that image and their power.
That said...NEITHER side has shown US what they are proposing as a resolution to this mess. BOTH sides are throwing around astounding amounts of dollar figures for this (in general) and for that (in general)...BUT NO ONE HAS PRESENTED US WITH A SPECIFIC, LINE-BY-LINE, ITEMIZED LIST OF PROPOSALS.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM...both sides are trying to make themselves look good and the other side look bad. THAT IS NOT NEGOTIATING...EMOTIONAL APPEAL IS A TACTIC, NOT A SOLUTION. YOU GAVE US BULL@*#* TO GET ELECTED OVER THE OTHER GUY, NOW BOTH OF YOU GIVE US FACTS...TALK IS CHEAP!
Cut the politicians pay, make them pay for their own health care, make them pay for their own retirement, let the PEOPLE decide when they get a raise, stop giving billions away in foreign aid packages, stop the lobbyists and special interest groups, make politicians take drug tests and background checks before even thinking of running for office.
Stop calling "welfare" "entitlements", it has a bad connotation. The people I have talked to are embarrassed and ashamed of using the welfare services to begin with. Most of the folks on welfare DON'T want to be there and you want to cut them out. So much for America being the bastion of light, you can't even agree to help the poor. Yeah, there is a problem in this country; GREEDY ASS CITIZENS!
Get real: Obama's plan of $2.4T in spending cuts and $1.6T in revenue cuts the deficit in half. That sound like small potatoes to you?
He signed $1T in spending cuts last year as a 'down payment' in these negotiations. Those don't count anymore to you, now that they're law?
Obama is not in Hawaii. He is campaigning across the country, trying to force the GOP to the negotiating table. It is really the only thing he can do, since the republican response to his plan is 'no', and they won't offer a counter-proposal.
Get out of the echo chamber. There is a real world out here, with real people trying to solve real problems.
What does obama expect the gop to do with medicare. He already robbed medicare to pay for obamacare. How many times can you keep robbing seniors. They took all our money and left IOU's for social security, and now tell us social security isn't going to be solvent. Now the bastard in the white house wants to strip us of our medicare that we have also been paying for all these years!!!!!! The dems haven't came up with a budget in years and everytime the gop does, they vote it down. Obama has expanded the welfare programs and changed bill clintons get a job on welfare programs so they don't even have to look for a job!!!! He threw around obama phones, and who knows what else to pander votes for his re-election!!!!!
They need to cut govt employees and all the useless depts'. Give the states back the dept of education. The only reason they want it is it gives them more tax money. The problem is they have so many employees working in it that it is losing money too... Shut it down. Holw about that dept of energy that hasn't saved us any money on one gallon of oil>>> The biggest sham there is. They just keep coming up with stupid ideas like those dangerous light bulbs and setting mandates on them like everything the gov't does!!! How about the stupid one thousand dollar toilets to save water, throw a brick in the tank dumbasses!!!! Close it down!! How about that money making post office that you have all these double dipping govt employees making two retirement salaries, talk about a way to get over on the govt!@! But the govt isn't that smart, thats why you have all this welfare fraud!!! Now lets talk about all thoise duplicate depts in the federal employee stockpiles. How about all those big retirement perks nobody else gets. The govt can go @!$%# thermselves untill they get rid of ALL thier wasted money, I should say all our tax money because everyone of the bastards in washington are using those tax loopholes they always talk about eliminating!! What about all the money they make with thier insider trading. Who in the hell gave govt employees the inside trading laws that anyone else would go to jail for using them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTime for the govt to make serious and drastic job cuts. NO MORE BIG GOVT!!!!!!
Mr. Obama's "Fiscal Cliff" plan:
Yep, that will work.
“If the Republicans don’t like those ideas and they want to do it differently (or) they want to go beyond that, then they have to tell us what makes sense for them and then we can take a look at it” Geithner said...
There it is, as naked and clear as you can make it and remain polite. The gauntlet has been thrown down, but the GOP hasn't got the nuts to pick it up. They're not interested in negotiating, all they can do is say that the Obama proposal isn't it. This was true during the campaign too, as Romney wouldn't give any specifics about his 'plan' as he knew (and the congresscritters still know) that if they actually say what they want, the middle class will want their heads on platters.
Don't like the Dems proposal? Fine, then the GOP should make a counter-offer. But until they do, what they're doing is just posturing and everybody except their blind, ignorant base knows it.
2014 can't come fast enough....
Elvis...fix it forya.
Do you people really think there is a way these MORONS could even find their azzes with both hands?. Do the math there is NO way too fix this problem pinching pennys while it cost BILLIONS a day just to keep the GOVERNMENTS doors open, what WE need is to start giving Millions of Government workers their walking papers as a start, cut the PENSIONS and MEDICAL plans for all Governments employees and start talking about raising TAXES first on the RICH by 15-20% and the rest of Americans by 2-5%, if you think spending over a TRILLION per year and looking to save a couple hundred BILLION will work you're a part of the problem, lets get real any good business manager will tell you this is BS and won't work, We need to start getting rid of the GOOD for nothing Congress and work our way through the Senate, this is the worst waste of money there is, if they want their jobs fine but at 25% of their current pay and that will apply to their Pensions & Medical plans, ENOUGH with the free ride while We are expected to pay their FU_KING lazy azzes for doing NOTHING but fight like a bunch of second graders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sad thing is, we pay these guys! Our congressmen and senators need to sit down and go through the budget line-by-line. Many a president has asked for the line-item veto, but that is the constitutional job of the congress. If we can, make the budget sessions LAW. If not, at least make it as strong a tradition as the filibuster! Televise these discussions. We, the people, deserve no less!
Ido:
There is a real world out here. Join us.
Bonehead says the 1% trickle down is on the way to avert the fiscal cliff, Bone said don't give up on my Looney Mega Rich Buddies !!!!!!!!!!!!!
The President has a plan to reduce and eventually eliminate the deficit. It is there in black and white. What have the republicons done? Nothing. What else is new?
After the New Year when we all see the republicons voting against a tax cut. This is going to be fun!
Over the Cliff with them!
Obama is deceiving the middle class. Even if the Republicans agree to tax those over $200/250K it is no where near enough to cover the revenue actually needed. He keeps pounding this issue that the Republicans don't want to tax the rich, yet he doesn't outline the full story. He wants to address the Spending for another day!!!! Oh, how I wish my household worked that way. Like Scarlett O'Hara, let's worry about it tomorrow. But tomorrow is here!!! He needs to freaking lead both parties to a compromise. He's doing just what he did with Obamacare, he's on the sidelines. He neglects to mention that the many taxes that will be imposed on the middle class from Obamacare. He neglects to mention that he had Geithner throw in another STIMULUS to his so called proposal to Boehner. He neglects to mention that the Bush tax cuts were meant to be temporary, not an entitlement. He neglects to mention that he himself said in 2009 that no taxes should be raised on anyone due to the weak economy and we are in worse shape now so what sense is there in that. He neglects to mention that he himself was quoted that entitlements need to be addressed, especially Medicare July 11, 2011 - (Phila. Inq. Current Section 12/2/12. So get up and speak to the people directly and tell them the FULL story. We can handle the truth. Stop this divide by actually making a real difference. You aren't running anymore you have nothing to lose but so much to gain. The respect of the American people, not just your constituents. When our children can't get along we tell them to solve their problems by compromise and so that all are happy with the outcome. We don't teach them to belittle the other to get their way!!! So sick of this.
Selective amnesia is no way to go through life.
http://roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/
Gee, Sam, why would you cut government worker pay/benefits to save money? Most of them are doing something productive. Why wouldn't you rather cut benefits for leaches on years of unemployment, food stamps, medicaid, etc who are simply gaming the system. Or, how about booting off all of the able bodied deadbeats drawing SS Disability simply because some lowlife lawyer got it for them? And why raise the taxes on the rich, who are aleady paying 40-90% of all taxes? Why not rather make the 49% who pay nothing contribute something to the federal teat at which they so willingly suck? And, by the way, what is it that YOU do that makes you feel justified in calling others lazy?
Here is a suggestion....Stop spending money you morons!
I should have been a financial adviser
Hi Snakebone,
The president is not offering $1.4 trillion in cuts. You are combining the $1 trillion of cuts from last year's debt ceiling deal with what is now claimed are $400 billion in future cuts proposed now. But adding the two together would be wrong as well, since if a deal is made for less in spending cuts then that $1 trillion in sequester cuts goes away anyhow.
I do not want recession, but I want the immorality of borrowing money from future Americans so we can have a better life for ourselves today even less. Voters spoke a month ago. We wanted the same government in place, essentially, that we had before the election. So my advice (not that they would listen to me anyhow) is that Republicans refuse any deal which doesn't include massive spending cuts and a major reform of the IRS code, including I would hope major cuts in the business tax rates. Mr. Obama, when he was merely a candidate, said Mr. Bush was immoral for borrowing money, and now Mr. Obama claims the moral highground despite borrowing 3 to 4 times more money.
So let's do it. Let's go over the fiscal cliff. You liberals, hand in hand with we conservatives, facing the consequences of our decades of votes together. Yes, the military will take a massive cut. I don't like it, but if the only way I can get my liberal friends to see that entitlement spending is making this nation unstable, then I say let's do it. I know, entitlement spending won't be slashed, but...the higher taxes on most Americans coupled with the decrease in GDP might finally convince more people to want less from the government, and so want less government itself.
I'm tired, to be frank about it, of listening to liberals talk about economics and how the government is the repository of all good things and how if we just make someone else, somewhere, pay more money, then we might finally be able to create the kind of nirvana we demand. Sorry, but it's all a fantasy. You can NEVER increase the size of the pie by simply altering the sizes of the pieces you will allow people to have. We've not had pro-growth policies in the USA for at least a few decades, preferring instead to create bubble after bubble by borrowing money from people not yet even born. Mr. Obama was right about this one thing: It's immoral. So let's get right and work on market fundamentals and economic liberty, particularly since prosperity isn't "given" to us through government policy.
Falling off this "cliff" may be the only way to shock my liberal friends into realizing we have just been deluding ourselves for many decades about what is right, and about what works. So...let's jump.
Stop sending Billions of dollars to countries that hate us and stab us in the back every chance they can. Don't tell me that it's to help their poor because only an idiot believes that. The money goes into the pockets of their government leaders and the poor is told that their situation is the fault of the US. Let's take some of the perks away from congress. Have them contribute to their medical and retirement just like the rest of us. Take tax breaks away from companies that outsource US jobs overseas. Why are we rewarding them for taking jobs away from US citizens. Start auditing, really auditing, government agencies to find out what they are doing with the monies they are given and make them really responsible for that money.
Her's an ideal all you @!$%# Liberals, how about stop giving the illigals everything and pass a law that you do not become a citizen just because you have a baby in this country. Ca, we have the illigal Mexican's coming across in herds and we have thousand of Chinense Baby Houses, they come here in their 8th month, and bring Welfare Reform back, Obama your socialize screwed up government is not working. I am so sick of taxing the rich, sharing the wealth, I worked my ass off all my life paid for my own school loans and gave up things to make a good life and I do not owe anyone a damn thing. Its not Bush's fault any moe now it's @!$%# Obama's mess.
But Vicki didn't you hear about the war on women? Don't you know you are nothing but a bunch of lady parts to Obama?
You want cuts? Let's start with cutting the Pentagon back to the sum total of the next 4 countries. Let's cut W's giveaway to big Pharma and make them bid for Medicare drugs. Let's cut waste, fraud, and needless duplication in Medicare. Let's cut subsidies to oil, gas, and nukes. Let's cut subsidies to big Agra. And we could always tax the 700 TRILLION derivatives and high speed trades industries at a few cents on the dollar. End of deficit pdq.
The republicans have been giving suggestions but the liberals and democrats don't want to hear it. Cut off freebees to illegal aliens, ban anchor babies and save billions. If you're not legal, neither is your spawn.
If you want access to the American way of life, stand in line and wait your damn turn.
dksouthern:
It is what it is; if there's an error, tell that to Uncle Sam.
Medicare is based on income. After years and years of already paying more than many others into Medicare based on my income, I'm still being "penalized" based on my income. Should I pay more than others based on my income? Maybe. But as I stated, if Medicare continues to raise my rates, their supposed protections from the price gouging private insurance companies will be for naught.
As a citizen who has paid their fair share into the system, don't I deserve the same protections as everyone else?
Snakebone...."Ido: There is a real world out here. Join us."
Too bad you are still dwelling in your cave. Yes, and the "REAL WORLD" Obama Fiscal Cliff proposals are listed in my post # 1.49. No bipartisan, my way or the highway arrogance.
Tell Newsvine how you are faring AFTER the taxes, and eventually ObamaCare, goes into effect.
Heck, even the Russians are laughing that Mr. Obama was re-elected. Guess they remember the one liner "I will have more flexibility AFTER the election".
The Progressives continue to live in a fantasy World.
president obama isnt going to allow any agreement that doesnt include tax increases on the rich.right now the republicans are looking for a face saving way to include those and save their biggest campaign contributors the defence industry from cuts.good luck with that.
Federal debt and deficits are really NO BIG DEAL.
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When individuals borrow money against their house, the home equity loan is safe as long as the house is safe. The United States is the most powerful country ever, and your house - no matter how safe - is no match to the safety of the country (as a lien) to borrow against.
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besides, Americans don't like to pay taxes, so the government has borrowed, especially since Reagan ... Americans get to keep our wealth in our own pocket, the government still has money to spend by borrowing from the outside. When the inflation is higher than the interest rates paid to foreign countries, these countries actually pay us to park their money with us
Patriotic American U.S.A., where do we get the money from? Just give an answer without name calling. Even if we tax the top 2%, cuts have to be made, the Democrats know that and so does the president. The game now is the Republicans are saying they will raise the taxes but the Democrats want the Reublicans to be the bad people and say where the cuts need to come from. If the Democrats can't figure out what to do then maybe you are listening to the wrong people. The President and the Democrats need to come out and say, Ok your giving us our tax increase and we will give you the cuts here and here and here. But they won't do that because then your President wll be a liar. God Forbid if that should happen. The President needs to grow a pair and just come out and say we need to cut entitlements.
That's because he's trying to push us toward a more socialized society and even out the money. He's starting with Obamacare and worming his way into the rest of society.
There won't be any incentive to strive for a good education when doctors and janitors can make the same money.
The Obama Plan that has been on the table for over 10 months>> http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/budget.pdf
The Republican Plan>>> Oh, there isn't one just some vague suggestions that we should look at closing some (unspecified tax code loopholes) and more vague suggestions about eliminating some (yet to be identified deductions) with no details as to which loopholes or deduction and no analysis as to what their overall effect would be on the economy as a whole or the impact positive or negative on the poor, lower middle class, middle class or upper middle class but one thing you can count on for sure is that those who will benefit the most and be minimally effected will be those at the top of the economic ladder who stand there and trickle down on the rest of us.
Pigotry
Let me guess...O'bama supporter?
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
Pay more? Why isn't anyone saying anything about how much medication cost? We continue to pay the Premiums the Insurance Industries want and we continue to pay the increases in Medication. I was recently told by a pharmacy that although I ask them not to bill my insurance company for medicine I can get cheaper by paying cash goes behind my back and bills the insurance for hundreds more. Before I had insurance I paid for my own Diabetic Insulin and was never charged more then $107.00. It has now come to my attention that during that time of having no insurance the Pharmacy was billing an Insurance Company that the Pharmacy claims was billing Medicare. Never did I tell them I had insurance and never did I present them with a card for proof of insurance. I'm not talking about some fly by night Pharmacy, it was Wall-Greens. I'm shocked to find they committed insurance fraud, they claim was a mistake. By the way even after the mistake was corrected my insulin never went up a penny, $107 was still the cash price. Now I'm on Medicare and the same pharmacy is billing my Medicare Part D carrier $265 for the same insulin I paid $107. I also now pay $45 for my co-payment per vial. That's an increase of $203 just because I have insurance. So who is keeping the price of our services in check? The Government seems to think we are not paying enough. I'd like to know why those with insurance have to pay so much more than those without.
Folks the GOP has no ideas to avoid a fiscal cliff. Their fingers are stuck in their ass as usual
Compare the 2 sides: Obama's Team has the guys the Economics World generally call "Numbers Hawks"; the guys you would more than likely see in the halls of who's who in Economy, highly educated folks from the best Economic Programs on Earth...Harvard, Yale, UMASS, Stanford, Columbia, Princeton, University of Chicago etc...
On the other side, we have what Economists genarally regard as "Numbskulls". Here are folks who went to"higher Arithmetic" Schools in the South: Tascalooser School of Math, Mobile School of the mathematically Challenged, Mississipi school of Arithmetic, Nascar school of Numbers etc
That explains why they dont have sh*t on the table except some Bullsh*t
What is disturbing is, why folks continually elect these idiots to run the country....
All you fools who cry about how NBC News is part of the liberal media, I have a question for you.
Why is GROVER NORQUIST being interviewed about this on Meet the Press? Are you effing kidding me? The unelected self appointed lobbyist dictator of congress, interviewed not on Fox but NBC???
That rat shouldn't have a public voice on the airwaves. Nobody voted for him. Nobody gave him authority to supersede the Constitution with his worthless oath. Is this guy the king of the Republican party or do they work for the people?
Hey, Kornfed who writes -
the whole debt and deficits all started with Reagan and most Republican presidents who have deluded Americans with lower taxes and more services (such as Reagan' EITC and W. Bush's prescription drug benefits). Clinton actually balanced the budget.
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But as my eralier post indicates, $1 dollar paid back in the future to our foreign lenders is worth less than the dollar borrowed by our government to pay for goods and services. Regarding interests, when there is inflation, the interest rate is reduced, interests paid are lower thus.
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Besides, you don't want to pay more taxes anyway, right? And it's the Republicans want no tax increases. Democrats want to raise revenue, thus less borrowing....so if you argue, then I am more pro-GOP, I guess.
Here is what the Republicans should do...Accept O'bama's offer in full, explaining that you did so in order to avoid the fiscal cliff. Everything goes to @!$%#, with no excuses for O'bama what so ever. Focus on rebuilding the country with a landslide victory in the mid terms and the next Presidential election. Only oppose amnesty and I will guarantee a renewed enthusiasm for the Republican party.
We already HAVE cut spending; nearly $1 trillion in cuts are on the books, and chances are there are going to be at least another $1.4 trillion on the table. But we have to talk about revenues first; if the GOP wants to save the rich and screw everyone else, let's put their feet to the fire and watch them squirm.
We can start by ending that wasteful Bush tax cut that costs $400 billion every year.
First of all, the 2007-2008 stimulus was the Bush stimulus, aka a tax rebate. The Obama stimulus was negotiated in early 2009. Secondly, the Obama stimulus was not for just one year; it was stretched out over 3 years, and was scheduled to lose most of its power in 2012. The $800 billion or so that is in the deficit is the combination of automatic spending hikes and revenue cuts that normally ensues after a recession.
That $800 billion is not just spending hikes; it's revenue cuts as well. And those were because of the recession's fiscal effects on the budget. If you want to eliminate that, you'd have to lower unemployment to below 5% and get GDP to 3-4% OVERNIGHT. Not an easy proposition.
This is a simple solution to the fiscal cliff that will raise revenues, cut spending, and help fix the economy:
I Tax Reform
II Discretionary Spending
III Mandatory Spending (Entitlements)
Savings over 10 years=$12.94 trillion
IV The American Economic Recovery Act
Net Savings=$6 trillion over 10 years
The MIC is little more than an unsustainable corporate welfare scam. There is no difference between a good paying MIC job and a good paying infrastructure job, other than the citizens get a lot more benefit out of the latter while a handful of wealthy donors benefit from the former. I prefer circulating the dollars where it will help stimulate a large portion of the US economy, not just a handful of rich donors.
The right demanded that Obama make the first move and do the job of the house, so that they could escape responsibility. He offered his proposal, no matter how ridiculous the right may feel it is. Weepy boehner, without ever making a counter offer, states that they are already at an impasse, and the right accepts that lie? The right doesn't want to be held responsible for anything, they just want to reap the rewards of their demands.
Time to grow up and do the job you were elected to do. If facing responsibility is too hard for your fragile egos, get the hell out of office. Let someone else, who isn't afraid to do the job or the negative publicity it may bring, actually work toward solving the problems facing this country today.
So Obama is burying in "his" plan the ability for the President to raise the debt limit without Congressional approval. Hmm does the man even understand the Constitution and the balance of power. I'd say he is drunk on power and its still his way or the highway...
History will have fun with Obama -
good plan kornfed.give obama everything he wants.what happens to the republicans if they cant destroy the economy.the republicans will lose the house too
fiscal year 2013 budget proposal? Who is he trying to kid? He has NOT had a budget since has been sworn in, why would anybody believe he would have one now? Typical welfare wealth - spend as long as nobedy takes your checkbook away from you.
Start increasing Medicare payments four years from now? Doesn't do anything for our financial crisis of today but it will be on the next president's watch so he/she will catch hell for the payment increases.
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WEELLLL, hi Pigotry,,,,,,
,,,,,,, I guess this goes with out saying,,, but you are certifiable crazy/naive !!!!!!
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Try telling the citizens of Greece (or Spain) that massive debt is "NO BIG DEAL".
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Our debt is the single greatest danger to our nation, our society, and our way of life. It is absolutely unsustainable and it can and will crush our economy/currency.
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Patriotic American U.S.A.
Why did the GOP lose the Middle Class Vote, American voters mandate was to extend existing tax cuts for all but upper incomes, but the GOP wants to cut into our entitlements to insure tax cuts for the Mega Rich 1%, it's become clear that this Party is for the Wealthy only !!!!!!!!!!!!
why not cut those entitlements and just what are they let me guess I pay your way NOT you want t socialist government go to THE EU may be France will take you or Greece or Spain. They have nice entitlements hell I will even get a fund going for your ticket.
Snakebone (post 1.47): You wrote, "He signed $1T in spending cuts last year as a 'down payment' in these negotiations. Those don't count anymore to you, now that they're law?"
When do they go into effect? Answer: many years from now. Stimulus (union payoff) and taxes start immediately. and, what is to stop the Congress who can't get off the crack from not putting the so-called cuts into effect, ala the sequestration that was voted in a year ago. The President has cut nothing.
If revenues go up now REAL cuts have to start now. That doesn't mean slowing the pace of spending and calling it a cut, or counting the reduced costs of foreign adventures as cuts: it means real, actually lower spending. Wow, what a concept!
The trillions in debt added as a result of the fiasco in Iraq is not Obama's fault. Billions were "lost" !! Where was the oversight during the Bush regime, of the money that was being thrown at Iraq as if there was no tomorrow?! And billions have been "lost" in the Afghan black hole as well, due to lack of oversight. And then more and more good money was thrown after bad, only to line the pockets of American civilian contractors--people whose only patriotism is to Money.
Republicans committed treason when after they took the oath of their office, they took the pledge to King Grover Norquist and the rich. Once more many of them pledged to make president Obama a one term president by pledging to vote against bills that would help America recover, vote against any bill that would make president Obama look good at the 2012 elections. Obstruct and vote against America they did in record amounts.
Republicans should be forced to take a pledge against King Grover Norquist and apologize and take the oath of their office once more or be tried for treason.
Lynda you are correct about the missing skids of billions of dollars that disappeared in Iraq. Republicon Sen Norm Coleman was in charge of the committee to investigate and never did one investigation. He took junkets all over the world and was not re elected. Now repubs want to be fiscal responsible...after they made off with the war profits!!!
Screw you *ssholes who keep demanding that the "rich" get taxed! My husband is smart and worked hard to get himself through dental school. He took out loans to start a practice and now he works 10 hours a day and he gives 4 months of his income to the federal government each year. Now that fvcker Obama thinks he should give 5 months of his income to the government so he can pay the sponges and parasites who voted him into office. I guess you dregs of society think people who are smarter and more capable than you should be penalized - how unfair that there are some people who just happen to have a high IQ and can make something of themselves. The United States is no longer a country where someone can come from nothing, work hard and really go far - there are too many anchors holding him down now who demand that they be given more just because they exist - no other reason - no hard work - no intelligence and drive - just a body that demands to be cared for by someone else. There's your voting Democrat for you...
Pigotry
If the debt and deficits are no big deal, why not just hand all Americans a free living. Never go to work...just buy @!$%# and play xbox. Here is the problem...Nobody would be working, therefore you wouldnt have homes built, electricity, food, gaming consoles...I dont need to go on do I?
Snakebone,
I believe your 1 trillion in cuts was mostly money that we save from not spending money on Iraq. So in essence very little if anything was actually cut from the Democratic sacred cow of Medic/a. Second, those cuts are projections based on "baseline budgeting" that have yet to actually be realized. So nothing has actually be saved yet and it will only reduce the deficit relative to a growing baseline. In the end the deficit will still continue to grow
The reason cutting government spending is so hard is because doing so reduces jobs and many good paying jobs at that. The private and government is often linked closely together as seen in with defense spending.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/budget_pie_gs.php?span=usgs302&year=2000&view=1&expand=&expandC=&units=b&fy=fy11&local=undefined&state=US#usgs302
Look at the above link and study the components of the budget. Look down the road a few years. Federal spending for pensions looks awful. That number hits 1 trillion by 2016. We need to adjust that amount, yes? What about healthcare spending? That number hits 1 trillion in 2014. How about the servicing on the national debt that we keep ignoring? That number doubles in a few years and that is probably a low estimate.
A simple question was asked yesterday in all honesty? Why are we fixated on raising the marginal rates on the high earners when we know right this minute that we will only save ourselves 80 billion yearly that is about enough savings to run the country for about 5 days? This is just political theater by Obama and has nothing to do with actually solving our fiscal issues.
Federal pension cost since Clinton have more than doubled. Healthcare had also more than doubled. Defense has doubled and half again. Welfare has doubled and half again as well. Int payments are virtually the same even though the amount of debt is significantly higher.
Keep in mind that Clinton significantly cut defense spending because at that time the cold war was over. However, as we know now, we were going to be facing a much larger enemy and wars that are impossible to fight and see any improvement. The cut in manpower made reacting to this new enemy very hard. I still say that fighting modern wars is like fighting with the hands tied behind our backs. They enemy doesn't have the same rules, but because of the desire to curtail collateral damage they enemy has many advantages today.
All I know is that depending on the so-called rich to save the day by fixing our fiscal issues is absolute baloney. They simply are too small and the mounting debt way too big. The math looks bad.
Look at the link and decide.
This past election the Republicans put up as a candidate a vulture capitalist who stole pensions, outsourced American jobs and dodged taxes via Swiss/Cayman Island bank accounts. (Newt Gingrich correctly warned them that Romney couldn't be elected) The Republicans got handed their heads in the election but they still don't get it and are now doubling down on stupid by once again representing the corporations and billionaires over regular people. Here is a tip, remove the Koch issued knee pads and start representing the middle class!
The EU didn't have "Bush's wars" or "Bush's tax cuts", yet they are going over the cliff too.
Nobody likes paying for other able-bodied people to be babysat by the government. It's against human nature.
So this "challenge" to fix the cliff is merely lip service for the salivating masses. It ain't getting fixed until the reset button is pushed. Until then, wallow in your debt and decreased spending power. And get your wives working.
Seymoure...sees less. You haven't a clue on on the tax laws have been skewed to give all the profits to the rich since president Reagan created his voodoo economics. You haven't a clue to see how laws have been put in place that gave all the profits to the rich not because of hard work or IQ, ...but because of laws and actions like 2 unfunded wars, all the dead and dying from them are paid for, not by the rich...but by the middle class and poor, they are not fought by the rich, they are fought by the middle class and poor, and they pay with their lives, and their blood. You haven't a clue on how many corporations and rich pay no tax at all then use everything from courts, transportation, infrastructure etc to help them rake in more money without paying taxes to support them.
The lateset government report shows trickle down economics like the republicons have had in place never worked, never were job providers. The repubs just censored that report to keep it from coming out.....No one is jealous of someone being rich, they are pissed because republicans create pledges to keep everyone else poor, they create pledges to vote against America just to keep their party in power...They create voter suppression laws to keeop the profits going to the republican party and their members.
And...you don't see anything wrong with that?......The nation did, and they elected president Obama one more time to fix the problem.....
Debbi
The only government program in over 40 years to come in under budget is the Senior Prescription Drug Program. This program though no taxes were raised to pay for it consistently has come in 40% less than budgeted. The prescription drug program is simply a collector that senior citizens chose which private insurance company and plan they want to use. But No, all you and the left see is a program that was not funded.
Every program this government tries to run itself is 2 & 3 times over budget.
Now imagine if social security, Medicare and medicaid was run this way. Most of the deficits you see would be $100 - $200 Billion. Seems to me that would be a whole lot better than $1 Trillion deficits and arguing over making the rich pay an additional $20 - $30 Billion in a year.
The American public has caught onto the Republican obstructionist rope-a-dope. They lost the election based upon their policies, but continue to play the role of obstructionists and refuse to compromise. They can continue to try to convince us to "be afraid, be afraid", but nobody is listening to their BS anymore. If they drive the US over the predicted fiscal mole hill, they will be the biggest losers. so go for it, you Republican obstructionist fools.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace. Thomas Paine
Geithner is part of the problem, he is not part of the solution. Any Secretary of the Treasury who works for Wall Street does not work for US!
Most of these "Obominations" are merely "Recycled" Bush appointees and it is time to "Clean House" of all of the Bernanke School of Banksterism and his Corrupt Minions on Wall Street pulling the strings of the Obama Administration!
Impeach Obama 2012 for the Criminal Conspiracy to Cover Up Murder Lies to America Secret CIA Prisons and Barry's Treasonous Aid to AL Qaeda in Benghazi-Gate!
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
Thomas Paine
Hey Dan #1.71, You already know my answer, have a nice day !!!!!!!!
A what point does Grover Norquist get arrested for the traitor he is? And, why is he EVER being invited onto discussion panels. He has never run for anything; never been elected to any office; not chosen by the people of this country to do ANYTHING!! All he has done is have Republicans and 4 Democrats sign oaths to him - who the h*ll is he?????? He and everyone who signed a pledge to him should be tried for treason and then sent to GITMO for LIFE!!!!
Excellent point! David Gregory, do you really think Grover Norquist is the proper person to represent the Republican viewpoint, considering that many prominent members of the GOP have disavowed his insane 'pledge' since they lost the election?
You sound like someone who is very poor and downtrodden, lady. Get a grip. Do like the Romneys did during their salad days: eat tuna and pasta. Pay your taxes like all the rest of us and quit whining. Your husband is a dentist, not a nuclear physicist.
Jon:
Nope. The terms of the $1T in spending cuts in the Budget Control Act specifically excludes spending in Iraq or Afghanistan.
"The deficit will continue to grow"? The deficit hasn't grown since our economic disaster. Obama reduced the deficit by about $350B over the last three years. Didn't notice, huh? The President's current proposal, if enacted, will cut what remains of the deficit in half.
That's of course just in the real world. In the world partisan republicans live in, deficits have been growing all along, and cutting the deficit is really growing it. Oh, and everybody but them is lazy, and Obama is a Kenyan trying to destroy America, and everybody who want to end corporate welfare is jealous, etc., etc., ad infinitum...
MUW, please quit quoting Thomas Paine. He would not be happy that you are taking his words of revolution and twisting them to support your conservative viewpoint.
Thomas Paine was not a conservative. You think you're off scot-free because he is dead and cannot ask you to stop using his words out of context.
George Orwell warned us about people like you.
Ahhh, nothing like watching the boehner mcconnell circle jerk when it's in full swing. I think the prez is just pushing boehnors buttons so we can all see him cry, again. shrubs tax breaks run out in less than a month and those welfare one percenters are losing their minds that their taxes are going up........ahhhhh ain't that too bad........tee hee hee. Bring it on!!!!!!!!
I wondered how long it would be before someone brought up Benghazi. Thanks, MUW, for ending the suspense.
Now, on to the birth certificate. Anybody?
"One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship." ~George Orwell, 1984
Now now Kaybee we've already had the discussion about my not listening to "Delusional Toys".
Besides I am absolutely sure Thomas Paine would be much more in agreement with my beliefs than ANY UN Liberal, Welfare State, Big Brother Watching, Indefinite Detention, Presidential Kill List, Obama Phone, Deficit Stealing, Bankster Saving, Corporate Robbing, Ambassador Murdering, Drone Killing, America Dividing, Al Qaeda Supporting Poster!
Impeach Obama in 2012 for all of the above and SOooo much more!
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. ~Mahatma Gandhi
While I agree loopholes need to be closed, the entire tax system should be chucked and we start completely over with basic building blocks. We put our current tax levels (the tiered system is more fair than a flat system once all participate, though scrapping income tax completely and replacing it with a consumption (universal sales tax around maybe 30% (I'd have to see the entire economic spreadsheet to run the numbers for an exact figure)) tax would be the fairest system possible) in place and only put in a few deductions, such as being a student or having children/dependents.
Welfare(foodstamps, as we really don't have much true welfare believe it or not) should be cut after 60 days of unemployment unless you are a current university student. Beyond that, 10% cut to the military (we all know the waste is there, so don't decry me hating soldiers), remove the influx (money going into the pot) cap on SS for 5 years so it stabilizes; fully socialize healthcare with a single-payer public option system (that lowers premiums for morons who don't realize you're already paying for people that don't have insurance, because that means those people have to pay in to receive any benefit) that forces drug companies to bid and be productive, not just lucraztive with no substance, and finally rearrange the capital gains tax system such that it penalizes short sales and other (betting on failure) liquidations while rewarding those who maintain investments in the economy to actually keep it running, forcefully break apart "too big to fail" to avoid another enormous bailout, and the biggest thing of all: eradicate 95% of "No child left behind." If your kids need help, it's on you (the parents) to get it. We need to start demanding excellence from our elementary and high school students again. We should have exams written by actual college professors which separate the weaker learners from the strong ones. Put the strong ones on an accelerated track (and if we can afford it, partially subsidize those students' university payments) and kick the weaker learners in the rear to do better. To help incentivize this, let's reinstate the draft for those who do not qualify for the accelerated track. It'll make warmongers more responsible and make kids sh@t their pants and do the work to avoid such a fate.
I'm a left-leaning independent with 8 years of college education (3 at Miami University in Oxford Ohio, and 5 years of graduate work at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute)
“In a time of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ~George Orwell
Sorry the Snakebone done snuck one in under the fence.....Benghazi-Gate is Obama's Watergate and at least with the Criminal Conspiracy of the Watergate Cover-Up.....
A. Nobody was "MURDERED".....
B. There where No Ambassadorial "Dead Body" Photo Shoots used in the Re--Election Campaign....
C. There was No "Secret" Aid paid to our Moral Enemies Al Qaeda" who then murder our people....
D. There was No "Secret" CIA Prisons.....
E. There where No Ambassadors made to lie to America to Cover up the Conspiracy....
F. And last but not least the "Republican President" Richard Nixon had the "Honor" to Resign when caught Red Handed...
But then again EVERYONE knows Wall Street Corrupted Democratic "Liar In Chief" Barry Obama has proven to US oh so many times, that he has NO HONOR at all!
Benghazi-Gate more than enough reasons to IMPEACH & IMPRISON Obama & Clinton for life!
He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him.~ Thomas Jefferson
The Democrats want people to pay their fare share...why not a flat tax?
Patrick: cool, like some of your ideas. Maybe go write a book and try to get some people on board. In the meantime, for commenting on the current fiscal cliff debate, please come back from the ether. We need to deal with the mess we have now, not the mess we wish we had. Education is a powerful tool for problem-solving, but it is useless if it cannot be applied to the problems (and the politicians) we face in reality.
Just my two cents.
Borrow and spend REPUBLICANS are not only the problem but will be the down fall of this country. But the republicans have their nuts tied behind their back. The "fiscal cliff" as they put it in Washington would just return taxes to the Clinton years which by the way was peaceful, prosperous, and this country was working. George W. Bush be damned for taking this country into the hole it is in and today's republicans be damned for keeping us here. Let the fiscal cliff happen, vote republican tea bags out of congress in 14 and the country will recover rather nicely.
Kornfed the flat tax is not fair nor can it be made fair. The only fair tax is the progressive income tax, where people that can afford it most pay the most. Those that have nothing cannot afford anything. Why do you want to destroy them?
At least they have a pair. O'bama hid behind a woman to lie for him about Benghazi so that he may get re elected. What a coward.
It was $250,000, now $200,000? Reverse auction anyone? Bidda 0ne and a half, $150,000, now A hundred, anna fifty, $50,000, go 25? Sold, for $25,000, yayyy, anyone making over $25,000 wins a tax increase!!!!! See how easy that was?
Didn't we already decide the issue of raising taxes on upper income individuals? I seem to remember that we had an election and the majority spoke on this issue. Why are the Republicans acting like this is some sort of huge surprise and a completely unheard of issue? Personally, I think President Obama's plan is brilliant. He has come out and said, ideally, this is what we want. Now it's time for the Republicans to put their ideas out there. Do they really want to dig their heels in on this.
I loved Sen McCaskill's comment - "Who is Grover Norquist"?
John in Battle Creek
First of all, those who buy the most, pay the most in taxes. Second of all, you could catagorize purchases. Necessities being the lowest rate, luxury items being higher. It is a much simpler way of collecting taxes and ensures that everyone has skin in the game, and is contributing to our country. It would not only be fare, but just as well.
As to your comment about me wanting to destroy them, you are being brainwashed my friend. Rich people do not want to destroy people. There are always exceptions of course, in every race gender or class. But most people feel emotion and compassion for their fellow men and women.
MUW, why don't you try to be original instead of stealing the words of others and using them in the opposite way for which they were intended?
Andy: it was always $200,000 for single income, $250,000 for double income. But hey, knock yourself out.
Kornfed: alright! The second reference to Benghazi! Nothing for the birth certificate? How about Obama's Kenyan roots? No?
Snakebone
I am being quite literal and logical about my criticism towards the President.
“Every generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it.” ~ George Orwell
OK here's a little more "Debt" information for your edification.....
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-s-now-borrowed-more-all-presidents-washington-w
Congressional Oversight? We don't need no stinking "Oversight"...We'll keep spending like "Drunkin Sailors" in Port and let the American People pay for it all with inflation of their necessities and deflation of their labors value!
http://www.infowars.com/geithner-raise-u-s-debt-limit-to-infinity/
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” ~George Orwell
Kornfed:
Yeah, you and Donald Trump.
Mars is made of green cheese, so anybody who sends a probe there should be impeached for wasting our money. See how literal and logical that is?
When you figure out how any of this relates to the fiscal cliff, let us know. We are waiting with great anticipation. Oh wait, I'm going for a walk on the ocean. See y'all.
Snakebone
What do I have to do with Donald Trump?
I think that is a great idea. Go clear that head of yours.
The wealthiest pay a smaller percentage of their incomes in sales taxes on basic consumer goods than do the middle class and the poor.
I'm with Kornfed give them everything... if it works thank them, but WHEN it FAILS the party will be done never to return, now that's a future our children can live with
kaybeetoys
Did you miss my explanation about purchase categories? Those who have more will always pay a lessor percentage for necessities. Do you propose that they pay 50 bucks for a hamburger? Lets be reasonable here. People wont strive to succeed if that success will be taken away from them in its entirety.
Not being transparent or pursuing the banking system over fixing the libor interest fixing. I feel he did'n't perform his job due dilligence - that goes for the justice department also. This was criminal and all they did was fine these organizations, thieves.
Republican leaders in Congress say they are willing to accept higher taxes on the wealthy, but only by reducing or eliminating credits, deductions and exemptions. Well, Obama is waiting- but the math doesn't add up. The reason why the GOP can't come up with a plan.
The clock is ticking and the GOP's solution to the problem is not there, and missing.
One wanders to the left, another to the right. Both are equally in error, but, are seduced by different delusions. ~Horace
......Oh wait, I'm going for a walk on the ocean.~Snakebone
See folks? One again an Obomination disciple has "Delusions" of Godliness and Supreme Power....Like Psychotic Master, like Psychotic Followers!
Bunker Hill Community College displays controversial painting depicting Obama as Jesus...http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/charlestown/2012/11/bunker_hill_community_college_4.html
With a wave of his hand (Pen) Obama grants unto himself all the "Powers" under Heaven & Earth!
Impeach Obama 2012 for still being "Delusional" Over Benghazi-Gate!
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. ~Mahatma Gandhi
Hi G-Man,
Yeah, I don't think the people you despise--the wealthy (or the wealthier than you)--are really worried about their taxes going up. Not unless the claims made by Mr. Obama, and his supporters like you, are lies. The claim all along is that the wealthy don't need or want these tax breaks, that they can afford more taxes without any harm to them at all. In part this might be true, but for a reason you on the left are likely unable to comprehend: The wealthy in most cases will probably be able to shift their tax burden onto people like you, meaning people who have no ability to understand economics.
See, a wealthy person who presently spends or save the amount of the tax increase will no longer spend or save that amount. Seems pretty basic, yeah? Maybe the home renovation will be delayed, or the bigger boat will be put off, or whatever. So, sure, let's stick it to those wealthy people!!! But...wait a tick...if they don't spend or save that money and the government gets it instead, then who will employ those carpenters that won't be working on that renovation, or the fiberglass guys that won't be making that larger boat?
I think we are off the deep end, economically speaking. These tax increases you and Mr. Obama want aren't to make the economy better, or even to close the income gap. They are for one reason only: You want to make people with more money than you feel some pain. I have a better idea. Why don't we just stop all this sillyness and go with a flat tax rate on personal income only (no other federal taxes of any kind) to cover the entire cost of the federal budget we want. Which means the total amount of free stuff voters want. This way you can definately hammer the rich as the effective rate would be something around the high 30% range. But, darn it after all, it would mean you might have to help pay for the free stuff you want too. And, then, it wouldn't be free.
I knew there was a flaw in my plan. There isn't a chance in hell that most Americans today would support any idea which makes them more responsible for themselves.
Rich, a totally flat tax would mean the 2% with 60% of the annual income would pay maybe 12% of the revenue at a 30% rate. That's ludicrous given the fact they already possess 805 of the total wealth and aren't hiring because the ceos would rather line their pockets with 2.8 million dollar bonuses instead of coming to a decent agreement with the employees/union and then letting the company fail while they walk off richer than ever as Hostess did. You need a graduated rate, but as I mentioned, the loopholes need to be closed and all but a couple deductions should disappear. Honestly Kornfed's consumption tax based on necessities and luxuries is about the best idea on here and is parallel with my own (a liberal's plan). So shut your so obviously ignorant mouth and run the math before you go all helter skelter with a flat rate.
I could care less what side of the aisle you support. You want these issues solved it will not just be on the backs of the rich. Obama knows that and the republicans need to accept new revenues will have to be a part of any agreement just like the democrats have to accept steep spending cuts. Get over yourselves already. Contrary to popular democrats belief we are not a strong country anymore because of our debt. Slowly we are becoming another greece because we have too many takers and not enough producers.
Obama has a plan to increase revenue and spending with what he offered up this week. that is total stupidity and only drives the negotiations backwards. Now the republicans are starting to dig into their position. This will only take us over the cliff and it is looking very likely that it will now happen.
What is worse you all are the cause. Instead of being stupid with each other on here you could try pulling your heads out and send a clear message to Washington to negotiate in good faith. That is what the politicians need to hear. Fact is everyone will have to pay to get our debt under controll. From the poor to the very rich. That is the fact Obama does not want to admit to. Guess what happens though if we go over the clidd. Obama will not have to worry about that little detail because you will all be paying at that point so he will have to do nothing. You wonder why the democrats and Obama are willing to go over the cliff. That would be the reason.
You want to make a difference? Then contact your representative and tell them in no uncertain terms they need to negotiate in good faith. Right now neither side can make that claim.
I like the idea that we flatten tax rates and get rid of every deduction, credit, or adjustment that exists. This would move us closer to a flat tax concept, and I happen to think a flat tax is the fairest way to share the burden for the government we elect. According to Mr. Geithner the president's plan would bring in $1.6 trillion over ten years. Notwithstanding the lunacy of trying to project ten years out what future presidents and congresses might do, but assuming this is a fair goal of the president then the idea of eliminating deductions, credits, or adjustments, actually brings in more money.
You can go to the Tax Policy Center yourself. They call themselves non-partisan, but they aren't. No worries in any case, since even if there is some bias they have in how they assume behavior changes the numbers they arrive at for tax code simplification, along WITH a 20% rate reduction (as opposed to Mr. Obama's demand for a rate hike on the upper two brackets), show more revenue to the federal government than Mr. Obama's proposal. See it here: taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=3590&DocTypeID=5. You will of course need to add in the www portion. In any case, both proposals, to have no amount cap or to have a $17k amount cap result in more, or the same, money as Mr. Obama claims he wants. And, like I wrote, this is with a 20% across the board rate reduction.
So, if you are a liberal and you continue to front the false claim that eliminating deductions and the like just won't come up with the money needed then you now know better. What we should favor is any tax policy which covers more of the cost of government, which puts more people into the tax paying categories, and which gives the government less control through incentives over how we live our lives. Or we can continue to pursue the liberal path of making someone else pay our way. It's worked so well already, right?
Pactric93: I totally disagree with you on the flat tax. A consumption tax will actually hurt the poor much more than a flat tax while the rich would actually pay more. I also disagree with you about why businesses are not hiring. I am not hiring right now because it cost far to much with current regulations and uncertainly about taxes. Unions need to learn how to be fair in negotiations also. Recent events in the news proves that. You should in fact shut your ignorant pie hole and do the math. perhaps you need a lesson or two in business. Businesses are in business to make money not break even and not go broke. You have been drinking far to much Obama koolaide.
Hi Patrick,
Your first sentence, you really shold be told, is gibberish. The top 2% of wage earners don't earn 60% of the income in the USA (they also don't control 80% of the wealth), but even if your gibberish were true then a rate of 37% would mean they would pay, still, the vast majority of the income taxes paid to the federal government. It's a simple proportion question, so in no way would your math make sense. Which is why it's gibberish. I think your post would be agreeable to most leftists though, and this is likely why we can never do anything more than kick the can a bit farther down the road. The math is basic.
If the government presently needs about 25% of the GDP to pay for operations without deficit financing, then it will need about 37% of personal income too in order to fund the government without deficit spending. Your numbers, while wildly wrong, would mean that the "rich" would pay 37% of their 60% of total income, or 22.2% of all personal income. The remaining 40% of wage earners, again using your wildly wrong numbers, would pick up the remaining amount, 14.8%. So, rather than have payroll taxes, excise taxes, fuel taxes, and so on, which that 40% would have to pay, their entire current federal tax burden would be converted to a single tax on income. For them it would likely be a wash in most cases, but for some it would be a net cost, others a net savings. The base numbers on income would become irrelevant, so that even while you are totally wrong on your distributions, those amounts wouldn't matter as we'd simply pay a proportional amount.
This, too, should assuage the guilty feelings of Mr. Buffett too, as his effective rate would go up (this should make you happy as well) relative to his secretary's effective rate. I fear that most liberals oppose such simplicity for two reasons: First, they can't continue to use the tax code to channel individual behavior (controlling people and limiting freedom of individuals is a major goal of the left), and, second, they would not be able to punish groups of individuals they think need punishing, like the "rich". To the extent conservatives have ever compromised with liberals on taxes we have erred. Every compromise with people who want the above two goals satisfied, no matter how shrewd we think we may be at negotiating, simply brings them closer to their goals. The results are all around for us to see. It was always a mistake, and conservatives NOW should not compromise even more, making things even worse.
Let's go over the cliff instead.
Boy! are the left wing loonies out today.
Timmy tax cheat is on a mission to shove us off the edge. Borrow and spend. Make our children, and our childrens children, pay for their excesses.
Come on Obama get seroius about a real solution. This proposal is nothing more than a JOKE!
Democrats want to fix this no more than they want to give up their saleries.
Then just blame it on their opponents.
WOW! You democrats elected a real leader in this guy. NOT!
Grover Norquist is a Nothing, even Peter King (R) called this nothing a Lowlife on CBS !!!
Seymour,
Screw you bit@h! I worked hard to get through college too and to get a MS. Degree. My work however, does not put me in the rich category and I have neighbors who are paying about 1/2 of my tax rate. They gloat over the fact and Greed does that sometimes when you don't know that there are some people living on the streets who also had to work to get through college. So screw you!
Seymour, first what have YOU done in life to contribute to society? If the answer is nothing, suggested by your pathetic "defense" of your husband's right not to pay taxes (since presumably you would otherwise be complaining about your OWN taxes), then YOU are the parasite living off of your husband!
But regarding him...did he as a child go to public school on the taxpayer's dime OR did he have wealthy parents who sent him to private school? In the first case, he OWES us; in the second, he had advantages that were not his doing; and, well, since we are not a plutocracy, he OWES us. Does he drive on roads to get to his practice? Does he rely on government regulation to ensure that the equipment he buys and uses in his practice is safe for his patients? He OWES us. Does he accept government funding to treat patients; or, does he treat government employees who either have insurance paid for by taxpayers or who pay him with their taxpayer paid salaries? He OWES us. Did those loans have government guarantees? He OWES us. Is he licensed by the government to BE a dentist (I certainly HOPE so). That costs money, paid for, well, by US! So, he OWES us.
I too am a professional, but unlike you idiots, I recognize that I would be nowhere in life without the financial assistance of my fellow citizens along the way. So I pay back so others can have the benefits I enjoyed in order to succeed. And I do NOT BITCH about it! And, yes, because I recognize I am not solely responsible for my life's success, I voted for the party that believes a government should help ALL it's citizens and not just self-satisfied, smug "I did it all myself" deluded JERKS!
The GOP Tea Party coming up with ideas to avert this crisis and others?
Their own DIVIDED party of RINO moderates, versus their own Grover Norquist fiscal conservatives, versus their own religious-right social conservatives, assures that its a matter of, "Damned if they do, damned if they don't."
According to the Las Vegas oddsmakers I spoke with, good luck GOP, you're going to need every bit of it, just to stop your eventual slide into, "Whig Party" unimportance, voted out by most of America's Baby Boomer retirees by 2020, if not sooner!
That's really ironic considering that this whole housing bubble started when George W. Bush and Karl Rove figured they could buy Republican votes by making every illegal Mexican in this country a homeowner. From a speech by Bush pushing the American Dream Downpayment Act:
The Administration also implemented a hybrid Adjustable Rate Mortgage (ARM) product that makes it easier for new homebuyers to stay in their homes in the first few years.
Substantially increasing, by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government-sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market specifically targeted toward the minority market.
Creating new mortgage products to meet the unique needs of recent immigrants
All of this pushed the selling of questionable mortgage products to recent immigrants (AKA illegal Mexican aliens). Take a quick read of any of promienet economists' analysis of the housing bubble that started what is aptly known as the Bush Recession. See what roles the secondary mortgage market and hybrid Adjustable Rate Mortgage (ARM) products played in the mortgage meltdown. Then come back here and talk about liberals "giving the illigals[sic] everything".
One day, there will be no middle class - only the wealthy and the poor who slave in their factories - our wealthy leaders who run this country are seeing to that. They may throw us a bone or two along the way, but sooner or later, they'll own all of us and have us working in their sweat shops and living in slums so they can live like kings. Seriously, have you ever thought why one man can have billions of dollars while others work 18 hour days and can barely afford to feed their families? How can someone live with themselves knowing they have so much that they could live a hundred lifetimes over and not worry about money while others living less than a block away starve, eat from dumpsters and live in the cold and drink from sewers? What kind of sickness do the wealthy have that they feel the need to have it all while they pay their employees nothing? People who horde such wealth have us all thinking it's because they are successful. Maybe we all have it wrong. Maybe it's because those people are really sick!
Yeah, I can imagine what kind of "ideas" that Wall Street stooge, Geithner, is looking for.
Graphic comment:
http://www.dropshots.com/GCaplan#date/2012-12-02/14:48:19
Just watched the interview with Geithner concerning the "Fiscal Crisis".
Only one word can describe Mr. Geithner: A R R O G A N T.
Heck, he indicated this administration is going to -SPEND- MONEY SAVED from NOT having a war in Iraq and Afghanistan after the troops are pulled out. HELLO !!!! What he is saying that this administration intends on SPENDING money that is NOT NEEDED to be spent any longer.
No wonder this "financial expert" messed up on this Income Tax Returns.
And this guy is our Secretary of Treasury.
Just think.....Mr. Obama's Cabinet members are filled to the brim with this kind of expertise. //sarcasm//
No wonder our country is in a mess.
History often repeats itself. You have a vast amount of information at your fingertips to study the cause and effect, as well as what measures worked and didn't work during the Great Depression. You must do this with an open mind (without looking only at the quotes or facts that may support your political position while dismissing the many that may disagree with your view).
You will certainly find that the troubling issues and solutions of yesteryear are eerily similar to those of today with the very same chasm between opposing policy proposals. A different era may change the scenery, but rarely changes the nature of greed in man. Many times, the problems of today can be solved tomorrow by simply looking at yesterday.
Single greatest threat the country faces: the stupidity of the right wing.
Second greatest threat, per Jefferson: great wealth concentrated in few hands. Obviously, these are mutually reinforcing.
That's what the republicans want. Aside from their racism, and their women as property policies, that's the only thing they've offered the country for the last 30 years. And if you want to be a nitpicker, it's the only thing they've offered for the last 122 years.
Why ask what they want?
Seymour-1012100 #1.92~~Thank you, for making your contribution to the demise of the republican party. Continue on Seymour and all of you Seymours out there. It is rants like yours, Seymour, that tells the whole nation, the mentality and integrity that is held by republicans. The majority of the people vote democrat already and you and your ilk continue to push good hard-working honest patriotic American, women, Hispanics, Latinos, Asians, blacks, GLBT's, students, seniors, teachers, rich, poor, Christians, and non-Christians, out and away from the gop. The Democratic Party, welcomes all, without the requirement of passing a purity test or kissing and worshiping Grover Norquist. We put country first!
Patriotic American U.S.A #1.139~~Peter King, kissed Grover and signed his pledge, and worshiped him for many years, when it was still secret. Now that the public is aware, not only Peter and Bob Corker, but all of the gop tyrants, are lying to their constituents, trying to convince them that Grover is a lowlife and they are not obligated to that pledge. What is so sad, their constituents are low-information folks and are not smart enough to know that they are not just tyrants, they are lying tyrants.
Grover Norquist has the gop elected officials right where he wants them. They are giving him millions of dollars at tax-payer expense!
There is no cliff. If the clock runs out, we go back to the tax tables of 1999. Is there anybody here who was not doing better in 1999 then they have been since the "bush tax cuts" took effect? We where all doing much better. the only people who where complaining in 1999, where the right wingers and big corporations. The best thing Obama can do is NOTHING.
http://www.dropshots.com/GCaplan#date/2012-12-02/14:48:19
In “fiscal cliff” talks, Democrats offer cuts now, cuts later
By Patrick Martin
3 December 2012
The Obama administration revealed Sunday that it is willing to discuss longer-term cuts in Social Security as well as immediate cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in ongoing negotiations over the federal budget with congressional Republicans.
Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner, named by Obama last week as his chief negotiator on budget issues, appeared on multiple network television interview programs Sunday to state the administration position.
The selection of Geithner to lead the talks was aimed at reassuring big business that there was nothing to fear in Obama’s demagogic campaign about raising taxes on the wealthy. The treasury secretary has been identified since his prominent role in the Wall Street bailout as the chief advocate of the big financial interests within the administration’s innermost circles.
The White House has focused on blocking any extension of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy—due to expire December 31—in order to provide a fig leaf of “shared sacrifice” while Obama and Congress work out an agreement to slash spending on social programs on which tens of millions of working, retired and disabled people depend…
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/dec2012/cuts-d03.shtml
It's actually a brilliant strategy!
Put up a proposal that raises taxes on the rich, provides additional stimulus to middle class, and cut nothing.
If the republicans balk, more opportunity to label them as the 1% class.
If the republicans don't pass it, blame them for the fiscal cliff.
If the republicans insist on cutting spending, make the republicans tell you what they want cut so they can be blamed for wanting to cut (insert education, medicare, social security, etc. here)
If the republicans just sign whatever Obama proposes, fiscal cliff averted, Obama takes credit.
Meanwhile, when the national debt is 20 trillion dollars and 1.5 times GDP when Hillary or Biden run in 2016, blame the republicans for not offering any solutions for reducing the debt.
Brilliant!
Ido,
Wrong again! The one word is "INFORMED!" Which is far from what your responses are to the working of the economy and increasing revenue along with cuts to eliminate the deficit and debt. Of course, not having poured $4,000,000,000,000+ down the drain in 11 years for bush's wars and bringing back only 7,200 body bags for results would have saved more then money!
Did you miss my link about taxes on luxuries not being a significantly progressive tax?
We're talking about taxes, not hamburgers. Sales taxes on food and consumer goods will always be the same for everyone, regardless of their income level. Or do you envision a system whereby you show your income tax returns to the counter guy at McDonalds and he charges the rich guy double for his burger??
The greedy rich need not worry that any fairly-earned compensation will ever be taken from them. The system is rigged to reward and protect the wealthy. The real issue is that the middle class and the poor have been subsidizing the rich by allowing them to pay a pittance in taxes, relative to their incomes. The rich have sent American jobs overseas and enriched themselves by paying their workers a less-than-livable wage (and then we taxpayers must step in to provide government assistance, like food stamps). WalMart is a perfect example, and it is the largest retailer in the world. That has got to change. Take heed, Waltons, it is not admirable or just of you to pay your employees minimum wage while you suck billions out of the company for yourselves.
The rich do not work harder and are not necessarily better educated or more intelligent than the average American. As Seymour illustrated, they are simply more ruthless, greedy and grasping. Romney is a perfect example. How hard does he work? When will enough be enough for people like him?
This is at the root of their sickness, as TheKhanKubla described it:
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail." ~ Gore Vidal
Some of you liberals ought to check out the facts before spewing. Whether you like the wars, agree we should or should not have gone, they are no where near the debt drivers you profess them to be. Since 2001 both Iraq and Afghanistan have cost the US approximately 1.4 trillion. A little over 100 billion per year. Likewise the liberals other target prescription drugs for seniors has been far under projections at less then 68 billion per year. 46% below CBO estimates.
Supposedly liberals are all for spending on seniors, but they complain about a meager 68 billion but find no problem with a massive new healthcare entitlement. Liberals act as if the wars are driving our 1.2 trillion in annual debt, when combined they have cost roughly 1.2 billion per year. No wonder the madness continues in Washington, liberals can't do math and ignore the facts. But simply put, if we wiped out both wars today, ended the prescription drug benefit for seniors, we would reduce our annual deficit from 1.2 trillion to 1.02 trillion.
Anyone that truly believes Obama cares about our national debt is fool. Obama will end his second term with our national debt in excess of 20 trillion. Obama will have added more to our national debt then all previous presidents combined. But who better to make the point man for Obama's tax and spend policies then our own tax cheat Tim Geithner. There seems to be no end to liberals deciding what everyone else should pay in taxes, but as Geithner has proven that sentiment is not meant for himself. The next four years of Obama should bring an end to liberalism.
Rick-lotsa numbers -
But what you ignore is that it isn't "entitlement" programs driving those debts, either. During George W. Bush's two terms the national debt almost doubled, adding $6.2T. As you have mentioned, the wars cost $1.4T (I think it is more but let's not argue that).
During those 8 years, SS and Medicare costs went from ~$1.1T to ~$1.6T per year. During that same time, discretionary spending went from $2T to $3.5T! So there was an increase of ~$0.5T for "entitlements" and $1.5T in discretionary spending. The problem is not entitlement spending, the problem is our government spending! There was a 3X larger increase in government discretionary spending than there was in "entitlement" spending!
But that's not the entirety of it. Take 2008, for instance. Revenues were $2.5T, outlays were $3T, that's only a deficit of $500B. But the national debt went up $1T that year! Why? Because George W. Bush was a master at keeping spending "off the record". Many, many of the dollars he and Republican lawmakers spent over 8 years was NOT reported in the budget. But it ended up in the national debt just the same.
Now I know you don't want to hear and won't believe any of this, but it is the truth. 40% of our current $16T debt was racked up under George W. Bush, aided and abetted by Republican majorities in both houses of Congress for 6 years, in 8 years. And the biggest bitchers about current spending levels, Boehner, Cantor and McConnell were there during that entire time voting for every increase in the national debt level and every budget increase.
Forgive me if I am a little bit skeptical about Republican motives lately!
kaybeetoys
You said it all in a nutshell. This "class warfare" and "redistribution of wealth" was initiated decades ago by the lobbyists (and Republican leadership) acting on behalf of the wealthy and big business. The economy is on the brink of collapse because it is far too top heavy.
Those of us trying to right this wrong are then viciously accused of the very same immoral practices of those on the right that caused the economic train wreck in the first place.
The supporters of the super rich and the major beneficiaries of the other tax excused parasites want to lay the blame to the People as if we are the ones who put us into all of this debt. We ordinary voters hired the clowns who are responsible for causing this melt down and fiscal disaster. Our Power Structure and these greedy fools that give them rewards caused these horrendous debts. Now they are expected to solve the problems that they caused and they still have the nerve to stonewall and play the Not me I didn't do it game. You useless lot better start doing the job that we hired you for .The simple rule is those that have made the major gain pay up for the major blame. Do not attempt to continue to loot our payed for true entitlements Medicare and Social Security .We the ordinary wage earner pre-paid those and stop looting them for your unearned benefit.
40 empty chairs 40 empty yrs of Rep rule,Vicki Brown, Seymour-1012100, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Just watched the tax cheat stumbling all over himself. Total loser..
Bonehead sold his soul to the Tea Loonies, the American Middle Class gets Coal and the 1% will just go back to their Lavish Life Styles laughing all the way to the Cayman's !!!!!!
We need to raise taxes to redistribute, you know, like they do in Europe.
I think this lady's got it figured out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
Zebra. Geithner is an industry insider.....he is not the solution never has been. I am with you!
Eric. Don't you just love that Chicago style of pay for play politics?
Ag99. I agree the "fiscal cliff" equals fiscal sanity that is why it won't happen. NEITHER party is serious about a truly balanced budget or they would have adopted Simpson-Bowles.
Boner is the worst House Speaker ever.
I got a BONE to pick with BONER.
Pigotry - I guess you are one of the pigs who want to sit on your *ss and get your free money for doing nothing except sell your vote. The House Speaker will be the worst ever if he sells us out to Obama. You can go pick you nose instead.
Whatsamatter, Seymour? Can't afford the new granite countertops that all your neighbors have? Or is your BMW an older model and you can't afford a 2013?
Get a grip and stop whining. It's very unbecoming.
LOL Seymour you are just precious telling somebody who actually work for a living a pig, when you have basically said that you don't work....well unless you call laying on your fat back for your sugar daddy, work. Give me a break. If you husband pays 25% of his gross income in federal taxes , well I have news for you. You married a moron. Why don't you do us all a favor and get in the kitchen where hubby said you belong. Leave the real world decision making to those of us who actually work and pay taxes.
Democrats and Republicans... we understand each other perfectly, so where's the problem? Or like with old commercial, Where's the beef??
The Democrats presented a whole plan to hear back from the GOP. Seems like the Republicans elected a whole bunch of ignorant hicks who don't have a clue about what to do or what their job is.
LMAO, YOU ARE legislators, present a plan and stop bashing Obama or blaming/criticizing the Dems. Do something, for god's sake! Come up with a complete plan of how you want it done!! Don't keep waiting with your arms crossed and start acting, dumbasses!
Boehner keeps repeating we should do this or the other, and things wouldn't work this way or the other, but he doesn't come up with any specifics at all. If he doesn't, Obama is not going to do their work for them and surely he's not going to approve another temporary extension.
Go to work and stop whining.
SEE-no-more, ... sukkkkz Canal-Waturr, BIG-time 2.
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated--
FALLIN' OFF THE FISCAL CLIFF (sung to 'She'll be comin rough the mountan"
We'll be falling off the fiscal cliff real soon,
We'll be falling off the fiscal cliff real soon,
Oh, the Middle Class will tumble
And the 1% will grumble
We'll be falling off the fiscal cliff real soon.
We'll be eating bread and water next, you bet
We'll be eating bread and water next, you bet
We'll be eating bread and water,
But the 1% gets fatter,
We'll be eating bread and water next, you bet.
(more to follow)
There is just nothing like having a tax cheater telling the rest of the country what they should be paying in taxes. Liberals complain about the two wars, and yet Obama has not ended them. Maybe because the 1.2 billion in annual savings takes away the talking point of them driving our national debt. Liberals complain about the prescription drug benefit for seniors, but Obama has made no move to repeal it. Maybe because the 68 billion dollar price tag is 46% less then the CBO said it would be, and are Democrats really that opposed to seniors? Funny how all of the liberal talking points are something Obama could have ended in his first term, but didn't. Seems as if liberals just like to complain, to blame, and make excuses. Obama will leave office having added more to our national debt then all previous presidents combined, and he will not care one bit.
Huntsman (R) called the Grover Norquist pledge "Evil", How can the Republican party Follow a Lowlife Nothing like Norquist, ( "Grover is a Nothing" ) !!!!!!!!!!
Seyless/ where do you get this sitting collecting your unearned s.s. ? Are you still that ignorant? I can't decide whether you read no comments on S.S.and Medicare or you are one of those creatures with a selective memory. I suggest that you have one of your friends read to you where the funding for both of those Entitlments come from.
Bitch and moan is all that Bonehead Boehner can do, but where is your proposal? Obama has offered one and then you negotiate and compromise. Of course, those are two words that cry baby Bonehead has forgotten! Take us to the cliff and see who gets blamed you greedy right wing nut republicans!
Bonehead and his Tea loonies Violated Americas trust that voted them in, they are running out of rope !!!!!!!!!!!!
Republican plan was out last week where they offered higher revenues.
Obama is the child asking for more than double what he was originally asking for, along with dictator like powers such as the ability to raise the countries debt limit... That is congresses job so says the constitution...
Brendan, what is the repubican plan? & who will be more effected by this plan, the rich or the middle/lower income?
@M54
it has to do with tax deductions, so obviously the rich
Time for President Obama to Sequester CONGRESS..... Do Not Allow the House or Senate to go home until solution is found..... It really is about time the do nothings get something done.....
I need to ask this and i have not read all the way to bottom so it might all ready have been asked. If we go over the cliff because the GOP will not come to the table can some one on here that's a lot smarter than me explain to me just how much chance do they have at midterms? All so i might have missed just what the GOP has put on the table as a counter proposal i think that i must have missed that some where. Also all of you on here have a nice day now.
M54 have you been out of the country for two years? The middle class will be most affected by getting back to work and earning paychecks.
http://roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/
Yes Obama did offer one and both the house and senate turned it down 100% great leader
Brendan 4,
If the republicans had a plan out last week why have republicans said, "It is too soon for the republican plan!" Stop making up lies!
John,
The words you have are great, but I didn't find anything in the plan other than the same out republican feed the rich and it will some how feed those out of work and in need. Trickle down doesn't work. It is an economic fast!
Our incompetent President has no real plan except funneling more money to his campaign contributors, increasing class warfare, amping up race hatred, and spending another $1.4billion of taxpayer money on junkets and "vacations" for himself and his family on the pretext that he has earned his rest. Hell, the shiftless poser never seems to work for the good of the country, he is too busy trying to look "cool" so the worthless liberal takers will like him. Barry is just as insecure now as he was in high school where he was "that guy," you know the clod the other guys used to wedgee, steal his lunch money, throw his books up on the roof of the school building, and make him cry!
Hey, rufnek 2001 -
I don't know the answer (to your questions in #3.6), but I can give you some examples from history -
1994 midterm GOP took over both Houses of Congress - 1995 government shutdown because the later-turned-out-to-be-a-real-corrupt Speaker Gingrich had the votes - 1996 Clinton re-election - 1998 midterm Democrats won more seats in congress in Clinton's 6th year (6th year itch?), the first time president's party won seats in congress in the 6th year since 1822 when Monroe was president.
.
2010 midterm GOP took over the House - 2011 debt limit crisis US credit rating lowered because GOP abused power - 2012 Obama re-elected - fiscal cliff now? - then 2014 Democrats may take over the House as well and bring back Speaker Nancy, or at least win more seats in the House in Obama's 6th year ... closer to a majority?
.
Note: the 6th year itch - in midterm congressional elections in a president's 6th year, American voters often would like to give the other party a chance by electing more
@rufnek 2001
No, you didn't miss anything because the GOP has not come up with any proposal whatsoever.
@John-2032532
Sorry about your link, but elections are over and Paul Ryan doesn't have anything at all to do with the present situation.This is about Boehner coming up with a written proposal. So far he has failed
@lilirocks
The House budget was passed by the House and is not a campaign promise. It is legislation. The House Budget has been held up by the Senate. Deny it all you want because you don't like it, but you can't deny it's existence. That would be simply sticking your head in the sand.
What budget has the President gotten passed?
http://www.c-span.org/Events/House-Passes-FY2013-Budget-Bill/10737429451/
@John-2032532
You do realize that was a REJECTED bill that the House came up with at the beginning of this year, don't you?
Please be serious. (Or at least pass another similar to that, so it can still be rejected)
Ferndoc,
"Funneling more money to his campaign contributors." I love how you take stuff (crap and lies) out of thin air. Just like the walk away republicans who have no plan on the table right now, but find fault with the only plan or ideas out there. Remember, you have to start somewhere and just walking away or laughing your head off like McConnell was reported to have done shows there is no gray matter to work with!
All the Republicans need to start doing to replaying the sound bytes of Democrats saying over and over how the Bush tax cuts caused this economy. Even Geithner said we had to get back to the Clinton era tax rates for everyone. So lets get it over with, and see if the Democrats plan of raising taxes brings fiscal sanity to Washington. The simple truth is that everyone including Obama knows full well raising taxes on the top earners means nothing in real terms to our debt or deficits, but it will give Democrats a chance to hammer Republicans for breaking their no tax increase pledges. This is not a battle over fiscal sanity, it is a battle for political gain. The only thing you can take to the bank is that Obama will leave office with our national debt in excess of 20 trillion, and he won't care one bit.
John203/If the house were to send a bill suggesting that we ship all of our Citizens to a Work camp ,do you think that it would be considered by either the Senate or our President? That is the type of thing that this do nothing Rep/T.P. House majority have continued to do and I am sure that you,one of their supporters ,are well aware,like the rest of us ,that they have being doing so all along, since they agreed that our P.O.T.U.S. should be allowed only to be in office for one term.
take the deal you greedy bastards
The GOP is the Fiscal Cliff, they own it, thanks to "W" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, Obama OWNS this one. It's his economy now and his budget....Oh wait, he's never passed a budget since he's been in office!!!! Obama needs to cut spending and entitlements, then he will have the support of the other half of America. The proposal Obama has offered still includes borrowing billions of dollars and raising the debt ceiling....Reduce spending, do not raise the debt ceiling, the repulicans will get on board......
that's right..U.S.A..don't pay attention to that man behind the curtain he is just a babbling idiot
millerz - Actually, it's not up to O to pass a budget. Do you know how government works? As for cutting spending, yes, let's cut the Pentagon back to the sum of the next four nations combined, and renegotiate W's Medicare drug giveaway to big Pharma. We can certain cut waste and fraud from Medicare before we cut benefits. And if Republicans NEVER "got on board" in the first 4 years, why do you insist O should do anything to please them now?
obama's offer means everyone loses.
@ miller
Are we really back to this debt cieling crap republicans pulled earlier? Do they not remember how it caused our credit rating to be demoted and caused a dramatic decrease in hirings when the economy was just starting to recover. Not raising the debt ceiling would be the single stupidest thing the US could do.
I think a bunch of you people are truly misinformed, lack an actual understanding of federal spending, and just how much money is being spent. So for your edification and education, let's look at federal spending according to the Congressional Budget Office.
23% of the Budget is spent on Medicare and Medicade -Medicare & Medicaid ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS established in 1965 under Lydon Baines Johnson (D) and expanded thereafter $835B in 2011
20% of Spending is Social Security - During 2010, total benefits of $713 billion were paid out versus income (taxes and interest) of $781 billion, a $68 billion surplus. This annual surplus is credited to Social Security trust funds that hold special non-marketable Treasury securities. This surplus amount is commonly referred to as the "Social Security Trust Fund". The proceeds are paid into the U.S. Treasury where they may be used for other government purposes.
19% is Defense Department - The military budget of the United States during FY 2011 was approximately $740 billion in expenses for the Department of Defense (DoD), $141 billion for veteran expenses, and $48 billion in expenses for the Department of Homeland Security, for a total of $929 billion.
18% is called Discretionary Spending - Non-defense discretionary spending is used to fund the executive departments (e.g., the Department of Education) and independent agencies (e.g., the Environmental Protection Agency), although these do receive a smaller amount of mandatory funding as well. Discretionary budget authority is established annually by Congress, as opposed to mandatory spending that is required by laws that span multiple years, such as Social Security or Medicare. The federal government spent approximately $660 billion during 2010 on the Cabinet Departments and Agencies.
13% is Other Mandatory Spending - Some mandatory spending, such as Congressional salaries, is not part of any entitlement program. Mandatory spending accounted for 53% of total federal outlays in FY2008, with net interest payments accounting for an additional 8.5%, or essentially 465 Billion dollars in 2011.
6% is called Net Interest Spending - Budgeted net interest on the public debt was approximately $251 billion in FY2011 (6% of spending). During FY2011, the government also accrued a non-cash interest expense of $203 billion for intra-governmental debt, primarily the Social Security Trust Fund, for a total interest expense of $454 billion - anotherwords Robbing Peter to Pay Paul like a payday loan scam.
Thus the total federal debt is divided into "debt held by the public" and "intra-governmental debt."
The debt held by the public refers to U.S. government securities or other obligations held by investors (e.g., bonds, bills and notes), while Social Security and other federal trust funds are part of the intra-governmental debt. As of September 30, 2012 the total debt was $16.1 trillion, with debt held by
the public of $11.3 trillion and intragovernmental debt of $4.8 trillion. Debt held by the public as a percentage of GDP rose from 34.7% in 2000 to 40.3% in 2008 and 70.0% in 2012. U.S. GDP was approximately $15 trillion during 2011 and an estimated $15.6 trillion for 2012 based on activity during
the first two quarters. This means the total debt is roughly the size of GDP. Economists debate the level of debt relative to GDP that signals a "red line" or dangerous level, or if any such level exists. Since people are yacking about China, by comparison, China's budget deficit was 1.6% of its $10 trillion GDP in 2010, with a debt to GDP ratio of 16%.
As you can see therefore, the BIG PART of the Problem IS NOT, REPEAT IS NOT Defense Spending, but ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS. But we sure as hell don't want to cut the expenses where they truly exist now
do we... The other poignant point to all of this is the BLAME BUSH crowd who now want the Bush Tax Cuts to be expanded for those making under $250k. Seems extremely HYPOCRITICAL to me seeing how he is vilified but yet people want his tax cuts. The other point of contention is TARP and other related bailouts. ALL of these bailouts come as a result of federal spending, paid for essentially by the taxpayer. It seems assinine to me that the same banks, mortgage companies, and the like that were and are being bailed out, are the same ones who now foreclose on the homes and businesses that bailed them out.
BU**SH**!!
Your numbers for defense spending are way off. That is only current spending. Taking care of the veterans or servicing the war debt raises the total to 54% of the budget.
The Federal Pie Chart
brendan 4, your'e right, but these dumbaases don't know that. thier just residing over thier great obama. the man is an idiot.... cut federal govt spending. close the dept of education, let the states take care of thier own education. close down the worthless dept of energy, throw a brick in your'e toilet to save water. they were supposed to save our oil production. they haven't done squat!!!!! how about the duplicate programs and all those worthless employees who don't even show up for work!!! how about that money making post office!!!! close down all these money losing govt jobs and high retirement policies!!!!! Start at the root of the problems, THE GOVT!!!!!
Yep, same 'ol same 'ol. Politicians showing their asses again. I'm sure the final deal was worked out long ago. All they are doing now is fighting over how many earmarks each side gets. They won't make a deal until the final hour because they don't want anyone to know that yet. If they made the deal now people will have time to pick it apart and demand they change it, so they wait until right before time is out, go behind "closed doors", put in all the things they want, and raise the debt ceiling to infinity until forever gets here. All this at a time when everyone is sitting on the money because they don't know if they will still have it or not. That's right, why help us when they can do things to get all they can get? Serious government reform is needed, like TOTAL REPLACEMENT!
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
Will the Watcher/a very interesting and informative article. We should hope that you sent a copy to those of our Representatives who can read and are capable of absorbing your unpleasant information.We should all be that informed but at least you didn't add ,Have a nice day!
As a conservative, I say let Obama do what he wants and let's see where the chips fall. If his plan (whatever that is) works then he comes out looking like a star.
If not then he comes out the loser. Either way the Republicans will come out as losers.
The republicans need to get out of the way and let obama stand or fall on his own policies!!!!!!!
Except some people have children's futures to worry about, so letting Comrade Obama gamble our children's futures is not a viable option, sorry. If Comrade Obama gets his way, my children will be paying over 50%+ of their income to the federal government. No thanks.
As a fellow conservative, I agree with you Observer. The media is fooling this country....on both sides. Shawn Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are just as bad as Rachael Maddow and Chris Matthews in my opinion. If the right stands up for what it believes in, they will be seen as rich, greedy obstructionists even though I believe their goal is to regain control of our nation's debt. If the right gives in, as tax payers we will be giving more money to the exact same system that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. If Obama's plan works, then it proves that our conserative model is a sham and he will be the savior that he has been promoted as. If his plan fails, then the left will have no base to stand on politically. This is the classic case of if you can't beat them, join them.
@Brendan - Not trying to speak for Observer, but we agree with you on premise....but at $16T and growing uncontrollably, the enoumous debt that we have has all but guaranteed that future for our children anyway. By continuing to be seen as obstructionists (real or preceived), we believe that we must sacrifice these 4 years to send a wake up call to all Americans. If we truly believe our model is the right one, it should prevail in the end and America will vote in 2014 and 2016 to change things. If the left's model works (and I am of the belief it won't), then we should all eat our words and concede that they know what is best. I guess Observer and I both think that we see no other way to get our "message" across....the media clearly isn't going to do it for us. Sometimes you have to let others see things for what they are, not for what you tell them they are. It will be a hard lesson as you have pointed out, but personally, I see no other way at this point. Washingon is corrupt....left and right.
This is what hacks me off about discussions. We have tea party morons STILL using terms like Comrade Obama, and socialism and communism. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. You want to know why this nation is gridlocked? Just read the mindset of the teabaggers on here and all becomes very clear. They don't want compromise. They want to destroy government. They hate "Entitlements" but want their entitlements because they're "special" and they've "earned it." Elections should MEAN something. But to read baggers on here you would think they earned a monumental victory instead of the ass kicking they got by the community organizer who figured out that community organizing is EXACTLY how you win elections. And Gregory? Your job is to try to educate your viewers not engage in snarky mental masturbation which amuses no one but your self involved persona.
we are all being dupped the gov will let the tax cuts expire then blame each other the idea that a higher tax on the wealthy will fix anything is childish thinking. it will not bring in enough revenue to pay for the interest we accure daily. but we poorer people seem to be so envious of the wealthy we have tunnel vision on making them pay more. so when they relize its not enough our gov will next hit the middle class saying its only fair because you make more than the poorer. the gov seems to be working on making us equal to the third world nations you know redistribute the wealth to other countries
Interesting comments. Lead follow or get outta the way. Currently the republicons are doing none of those things and are seen as the reason we are in this mess.
Over the cliff with them!
There is no gamble involved. Give Obama the keys to the treasury and he will 100% bankrupt the country.
The Bush tax cuts were sold to us as "temporary". Those cuts contributed to the yearly deficits, and the huge debt we have now. It is not sustainable in the long run.
No, removing the cuts on the "top 2%" will not solve this problem entirely. I believe that eventually the Bush tax cuts will have to be removed for all Americans, but I don't believe now is the time. First, we must get the economy (all of us) working again. The best way to do this at this time is stimulus (dirty word) invested in infrastructure improvement. More people will be working and revenues will increase -- plus, we'll have a stronger more modern country. Then we gradually phase out the rest of those "temporary" tax cuts and significantly pay down the debt.
I think the greatest travesty is that the upper 2% has hijacked the notion that "taxing the 'job creators' hurts economic recovery". This is a travesty because -- while technically true -- it is not the upper % that is the job creation engine of our economy, it is the middle class.
@Phillycap - Hitler was a great community organizer too, but that didn't mean society should blindly follow his beliefs.
Frankly, your sterotyping is part of the problem. "We have tea party morons STILL using terms like Comrade Obama". You preach 'constructive discussion', yet resort to insults and name calling when others don't share your opinion. The purest form of hypocrisy....
For what it's worth, I don't want to see the government destroyed. Government has its place in a civilized society. It is when a tyrannous government can control its people that its powers are overreaching.
Thomas Jefferson predicted and said it best himself, "Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."
Republican/Grover Norquist plan...keep giving everything to the rich... and keep letting the rich screw the middle class and poor.
Republican plan/Norquist plan, privatize everything for maximum profits for the rich and to hell with the middle class and poor.
Republicn /Norquist plan, keep giving tax breaks to companies taking American jobs overseas so the profits can be put in offshore accounts where the rich pay no taxes on it.
President Obama and Biden won the election....screw Norquist and his followers...they have screwed the nation long enough!
I agree Observer. Let's do just like we did in 93 where not one GOP member of congress signed the budget....guess what happened after that.....well I should say after the same squealing and moaning by brain dead republican's how the sky would fall....yep, 23mm net new jobs were created and the budget deficit was eliminated. So yes you are exactly right....get the hell out of the adults (Democrats) way and let Obama lead our country......we will the deficit greatly reduced and 15MM net new jobs in the next four years.....yep, get out of our way!
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
Ochie/ If taxing the rich their fair share of our tax burden will not accomplish anything then why tax me more than my fair share ? That is a ridiculous claim that you rich ,or slavish , or dare I say Uncle Toms of the super rich continue to want. The 1+% of our population were given the most benefits of the tax breaks and undeserved Entitlements whilst people such as you ,suggest that our truly pre paid entitlements should be cut or eliminated altogether.
Watching Grover Norquist whine on Meet ThePress was as enjoyable as watching Boehner whine last week. Republicans are better at whining than getting things done.
sharky boy, you been watchin to much cnn/hln. All the whining has been from the pres's side. Their game plan is to whin to their liberal friends, yelling republicans won't budge. At last count, only person i'v seen showing he ain't going to budge is god obama.
unreal-####### -- "At last count, only person i'v seen showing he ain't going to budge is god obama."
You must not have counted the majority of the American electorate....
Take us over the cliff, it's the best thing that could happen. It will reduce spending, increase taxes, and that will give us a start on our debt problem. Both sides can blame the other and we can go on down the road
That's the plan. And then maybe come back next year with a tax cut for just the middle class.
But in reality, our politicians really could care less what happens just as long as they profit from it.
That would also harm our economy significantly as well, which lowers tax revenue and causes more spending.
Yeah...you kind of want to control how you pay down the debt as opposed to letting everything collapse. There are multiple ways to reduce spending in many different areas that won't result in very large problems. You don't want paying down your debt to cause a another recession. Especially because the long term prospects of paying down the debt are hurt by recessions. You may get a temporary bump, but it won't last long at all.
I agree to let all the "W" tax cuts expire and start all over with tax cuts for the middle class only, we need this extra money from the 1% to help pay down "W's" two unfunded wars a his depression, what was "W" on when he was running our Country into the ground !!!!!!!!!!
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
The $13.00 tolls in N.Y., is crazy, when is this going to stop and it's going up another $1.00, Jan. 1, of 2013, I own a F-250 ford 4x4 and they charge me $26.00 one way !!!!!!!!!!!!
Last I checked oblablama cried at his acceptance speech... ESAD. The senate rejected his last " budget proposal" 99 to ZERO. Exactly what he is... Half of Illinois is in jail geithner should be, and Obama has divided this nation so severely, it will never be the same. Take us to the cliff... Sick of paying for 51% who voted for this clown.
@Zebra2, you had better check again about the so called rejected budget proposal. The original budget was around 2,000 pages, the ones the GOP wanted to vote on had 22 pages. Hell no, the D's wouldn't vote for a GOP piece of crap budget. But the GOP said it was Obama's budget, it wasn't.
And the low informed base eats the lies up and spews them out like Zebra2 just did.
SallyAnn
Maybe you should do some research.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/apr/06/mitt-romney/romney-says-obama-failed-pass-budget/
Looks like you're suffering from foot in mouth disease.
Illinois is in trouble. Only 45% of govt. pension plans are funded. California and New York are also in trouble.
Those 3 states want another stimulus package to bail them out. Democrats in state congress voted for these outlandish pensions. Illinois raised state income tax 67% last year to help make up for the deficit, but they are still billions short.
Let these states collapse from their stupidity.
Sally Ann talks about low informed while she eats up miserable news network... Zero class and most likely zero income!
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
You guys all talk like they really WANT to pass a budget. That's the last thing any of them want, it would interfere with their stealing powers. In private they agree to what they are going to say in public to throw everyone off. THERE ARE NOT TWO PARTIES! Just a big show for people to believe while they steal as much as they can. They agree to disagree until the time is right for the most profit, the Nth hour. When Reps act like this they are just playing bad cop and have been given their share to do so. If these people really governed for the people they would work things out to our advantage, not theirs. And that hasn't happened in a long time. Presidents that do that get assassinated. Washington is a big mafia bribery ring, and you fools keep re electing them!WAKE UP!
"Half of Illinois is in jail." (#8).
Wow! That's astounding! I hadn't heard that! If you're right that half the population of Illinois is in jail, than NBC is indeed derelict in its' reporting. I hadn't heard that, and I even watch FOX channel from time to time (morbid curiosity).
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
Ironic that a tax cheater named Tim Geithner is calling out Republicans to pay their fair share in taxes.
All the tax increases in the world will do nothing unless we learn how to stop spending more than we earn.
Geithner is a Republican. He understands the system and realizes that most of the wealthy have rigged the tax code to permit legal tax evasion.
@sharky
no such thing as legal tax evasion. stop being jealous of the wealthy and worry about yourself and not their wallet
brendan stop being jealous of the wealthy...............
No one is jealous of the wealthy. Most of us want them to pay their fair share. Do you think they pay their fair share?
smitty, do you not think that everyone should pay their fair share? Is income tax a welfare program? Why can you get back than you payed into it? Get a grip, and yell just as hard for everyone to pay their share.
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
I agree with Geithner. Republicans need to have a clear and defined plan. It isn't enough just to block the democrats. They need to offer solutions as well. How much spending do they suggest to be cut? How much are you willing to raise taxes? What is the ratio. Republicans need to offer solutions. The sad part about all of this is that both sides are holding the middle class hostage and neither side really cares about them.
Geithner wants to spend, spend, spend. Keep the Bush tax cuts for now if you must, they WERE intended to be temporary, but.... have become somewhat of an entitlement the way they are going. Stop the payroll tax extension before they too end up like the tax cuts. We are milking social security by doing so and we all know that money is never going to be repaid. Enact legislation that Medicare and Social Security funds are OFF LIMITS for borrowing from their surplus in the future. It was not intended to be used for anything else and is downright "stealing" from the very taxpayers who paid into it to "insure" that they had a bit of a lifeline in their senior years. If they weren't touched in the first place, there would not be a shortage. Johnson, Reagan, whoever the heck started robbing their coffers should never have been allowed to do so.
It will take spending cuts in addition to tax increases to keep us from becoming another Greece or Spain. As far back as I can remember, promised future spending cuts have never materialized. I don't care who you want to blame, Congress (in total) has never had the cajones to make it happen.
Let's hold hands and go over the cliff together. It's the only way to protect the future finances of this country.
This is not K.SofA King States of America you are not Kings of this country!
We the citzen of America are all to move ahead not the rich this is what makes America great Because it has a Middle Class!
We need are Social Security they are not entitlements!
Part of what makes america great is the freedom of choice, that is until you start talking about paying for someone else's health care or retirement. how about let young people opt out? especially considering we are being robbed by baby boomers and the older folk of our hard earned dollars so that you can retire in comfort
i can get a much higher rate of return on my own money
brendan we baby boomers paid into the system and we are not robbing anyone or thing we are retiring on our paid into and forced to pay into like you retirement plan. its the gov that decided to rob the plans to better their retirement and to better america which probably went into pet projects and their pockets. its not right you blame the boomers ya little duck waddler
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
Here is my suggestion for the republicans. Offer this plan.
"Let's go back to the policies that worked so well under Clinton and the Contract for America. For every 10% you cut spending back to those levels, we will agree to remove an equal percentage (10%) of the Bush tax cuts. In the end, we wind up with a balanced budget. Isn't that what everyone wants?"
The "cliff" does just that except all at once and it forces the spending cuts up front. Tax cuts under the Bush administration? Gone. Spending increases since 2000? Gone. Let's do it.
The cliff does it in a very destructive way. A way in which could likely cause a second recession. That would hurt long term prospects of paying down the debt. You need to both reduce spending and increase taxes in a gradual way. You also have to consider the effect of increasing taxes on those that have been severely hurt by the recent recession. Many in that situation aren't able to pay more in taxes because they no longer have jobs.
No it doesn't. The cliff doesn't come anywhere close reducing the levels back to the Clinton era. It also does it in a destructive way. It needs to be phased in.
doggy - Not buying it. Future spending cuts never happen.
It's been stated numerous times by many experts that a sudden cliff would likely result in a severe economic downturn possibly a second recession. Past history will show you that recessions do not result in a debt reduction but instead result in debt increases. So, the solution you are proposing doesn't have a very good chance at all to actually solve the debt issue for the long term.
Also, you tie in spending cuts with tax increases. This encourages both sides to actually make cuts.
doggy - a dissenting opinion:
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9238
Watched it. All he really says is "no that's not true". Or "the computer models are wrong". I don't see his alternate models demonstrating what he's saying.
Secondly, he's not saying that we should simply let the fiscal cliff be the solution for the debt issue, but that we shouldn't be panicking about dealing with it by the end of the year. He's saying that it will be ok if we deal with it over the next several weeks of the year or we deal with it after more pressing issues. I'm talking about the results of the cliff if it is allowed to stay that way. It's reasonable to deal with the issue over several months and work out a plan that is acceptable to both parties.
This is in sharp contrast to what you seem to be suggesting that we allow the fiscal cliff to be the solution to the debt issue.
Link time for the original opinion.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-27/u-s-fiscal-cliff-could-lead-global-recession-oecd-says.html
To be honest though, a better analysis of understanding the fiscal cliff doesn't really come from news organization due to the way they report things (not enough detail, big headlines, shiny pictures, etc.). You're usually better off with a Wikipedia analysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_fiscal_cliff
If we go over the fical cliff then Obama get what he wants. Something to blame for his awful, poor leadership. He wants to run this country into the ground so he can blame Bush and the Republicans for everything - then come in and try to look like the Savior.
normal... the election ended. You're providing nothing of value to the conversation.
normal I agree with you but I see it as a way to destroy america from within he is turning this country into a third world nation. I read where people want the clinton days back but not that he is the one who signed the china trade agreement which opened the doors for off shoring our jobs I believe he was a dem but all they try to do is blame people for doing what they opened up sounds like the old bait and switch to me. Did I mention bo was raised in third world nations
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
Posturing, preening and grandstanding is NOT the way to solve the problem. We need to raise revenue and cut expenditures. We all survived very well on the tax base prior to 2000 and didn't even complain (much about it). According to the Republicans 47% of us don't pay taxes anyways (sarcasm). So here's the deal:
1. Cut out all government subsidize for all companines receiving them with a profit margin greater than say $2 million.
2. If you are over 65 and your net income is greater than $200,000, your medicare costs will increase by 5% for every increase of income over that amount, say every $100,000. So if your is $200K, you pay 5% more, $300K, 10% (this can be negotiated).
3. Find all dirt bags (doctors and patients) who are scamming the medicare system and fine them big bucks with a mandatory prison sentence, in some place really bad. You know, on an island with alligators and poisonous snakes where they have to fend for themselves. Kind of like Survivor without the camera crew and script.
Okay, enough sarcasm for today. Maybe we should put the Congress on that Island? I bet it wouldn't take them long to come up with a solution.
Why not just cut out all subsidies for all companies. Why should we try to support failing businesses with government funds? Completely agree with the dirt bag doctors and patients scamming the system.
You don't want to remove all subsidies because various areas are simply not profitable at the moment due to new technologies. They will likely be profitable in the future once companies can work on refining such technologies. Take for example the internet. It relied quite heavily on governmental funding but after it became clear it was going to fundamentally change society, governmental funding on basic research could be reduced. For profit companies are rarely ever willing to take extremely large risks with new technologies. This is why it should be based upon profit margin as Copper suggested. You will probably need to use a variable profit margin to encourage companies to take such risks. For example if the company is risking several hundred million dollars a profit margin of only 2 million isn't a great incentive. That 100M may be better spent on a known tech that gives a good shot at a 20M profit margin or better.
Adjusting medicare costs is a useful idea. You can probably make the net income be variable for those in the lower brackets of say 100,000. Perhaps even lower as the economy recovers. The problem is you actually need to do this after the recovery instead of putting it off. Much of the issues that arose after Clinton left office was that people were simply unwilling to actually put this money towards reducing the debt. It went out as tax breaks or additional spending.
With regards to dirt bags. Most of the time when you go after such individuals the policies end up hurting those who actually need such assistance. As an example, Pennsylvania recently changed laws regarding cash assistance for those with mental health issues. The idea was to save money and it gained support by going after those scamming the system. Unfortunately, this also hurt many individuals who had mental health issues and relied on that cash assistance weekly food. So, keep in mind that every time someone takes the stance that we need to go after the dirtbags scamming a system, it always results in harming those that the system was designed to help in the first place.
Geithner - Another stimulus to go on top of the $800B one when Obama first took office that created how many jobs??? Are you kidding me. It's being promoted under the guise of "infrastructure" spending. Wasn't that the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act? The signs that were all over the major highways being worked on thanks to Obama the past four years. Now they want more. More for his union cronies!!! No way. STOP THE SPENDING. Tighten up, live on less like the rest of us who have lost their jobs, including me and cut back. No mention of the Obamacare taxes about to unfold on us middle class people either. No, we'll just tax those rich people and spend more and you'll see everything will be fine. Excuse me while I watch the little bit of money I have left go out the window.
How's this for an idea for the Republican Party?
How about joining the 21st century with the rest of us?
does joining the 21st century include handing dictator powers over to obama so he can raise the debt ceiling at will?
does joining the 21st century include forcibly confiscating money from the wealthy to redistribute it to people who have less in the name of "fairness"?
if so i'll take the 20th century, thanks
brendan does joining the 21st century include handing dictator powers over to Obama...........
So in your statement you said handing over dictator powers to Obama. Dictator powers? Who had the "dictator powers"? So what your saying the republican/tea party has the "dictator powers" right? Were they going to give then to Rmoney if he were elected? If one were to look at this the republican house acts like their the dictators.
Its funny how some defend the rich from paying their fair share.
Now let me get this straight. When Bush gave a stimilus in 2007, that was ok with republicans, but when Obama did it in 2009 that was wrong. When Bush bailed out the banks, that was ok with republicans, but when Obama bailed out the auto industry saving millions of jobs, that was wrong. When Bush put us into two unfunded wars that was ok with republicans, but now that Obama is pulling us out, according to republicans he is doing is wrong and to fast. When Bush created the dounut hole for seniors making them pay more for prescriptions that was ok for republicans, but with Obama health care act that closes it, thats wrong. Obama wants to keep the tax cut for the middle income folks and let it rise for the well to do, but republicans think thats wrong. Do we have a pattern here?
David....First, Obama didn't bailout the auto industry. That was Bush. The money came from TARP. It also didn't save millions of jobs. The same things would have happened with Romney saying "let Detroit go bankrupt". They did under Obama. Someone would have bought them out and they would probably be doing better today than they are now. Bush didn't create the donut hole. He worked to close it. Please don't be so ignorant and gullible. Find the facts.
Like every good Republican Put America Last !
Obama did not bailout the auto industry?
Sounds like more Republican rewritting of history
40
You should join SallyAnn and have a research meeting.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16740.html
Looks like you are suffering the same disease as SallyAnn.
Foot in mouth disease.
I hate to tell you soldan that was one of the things Obama set for the loan restructure of G.M and that of the propose Chysler, Dodge and Jeep to be owned by Fiat
Not Bush Jr
Why do politicians always want to cut Social Security and Medicare? These are NOT entitlements they are the SAME EARNED retirements that Congress and the presidents have. Cut theirs. The VERY FIRST CUT should be to FOREIGN AID! Cut aid to EVERY country by 25-50% simply tell them we have no more assistancce. ANY country that does not vote with us in the UN or outwardly hates us...100% cut. Inform every country that receives aid that further aid will be cut every year. Before you start yelling they can't do that. YES WE CAN!
PutAmericaFirst, I have had better things to do than sit on the computer and had things to do since I posted 7 hours ago, but you are mistaken. Bush bailed out the banks and Obama bailed out the auto industry. Of course I guess you could argue with all the republicans who have been screaming the past couple of years of Obama bailing out the auto industry. And Bush did not try to close the donut hole, he created it. Dang, I wish people like you would get your facts straight. You'll probably not see this post as you have probably gone ont to give wrong facts on other posts.
Obama's bailout of the auto industry cost this country dearly for the sake of whom? Many companies went under and many lost their jobs and no one bailed them out, no one gave them pensions or benefits to last into their retirements so excuse me if I don't think the auto bailout was wonderful. It was nothing more than a favor owed to his union cronies for giving him their vote. Actually, they ended up going bankrupt anyway so they got away with a 2 for 1 deal if you ask me. They got government money i.e, our money, stockholders got crap, the very people who invested in their company so they had a job to begin with. And it hasn't been paid back like they claim since they WERE allowed to also go bankrupt and only had to pay part. And most of the jobs saved are overseas, how ironic. Not so hunky dory, but the good people of Ohio in the auto industry were sold a bill of goods believing otherwise when it came to voting because they didn't see the big picture.
TARP on the other hand was a success but Bush won't get any accolades for that. The banks PAID all of their debts back and ended up having quit a lot of capital they are presently sitting. There's some history for you.
GM and Crysler have paid back most of the money, and yes the tax payers may be out some, but people are at work who other wise would have been in the unemployment lines. I really don't think you have the slightest idea about what your talking about anyway. Your previous post you stated that Bush bailed out the auto industry. Now your telling me that Obama's auto bailout cost the country. Try getting your stories straight, you can't have it both way, although the republican party thinks they can.
Hey Pat, I agree 100% with David on this - Wise up and start buying American !!!!!!!!!!
First off I'm a republican. Obama won the election with a mandate to raise taxes on the rich. Republicans need to give up on this no tax crap and let Obama raise taxes on the job creators until it hurts. The higher the better. The next recession will come faster and harder than the last one. When our country is finally upside down due to the 16+ trillion dollar debt and over the top taxes maybe we can begin to fix this country.
@cgent47:
You wrote this:
And I agree, because the fact of the matter is that the current bunch of so-called "job creators" are doing a terrible job of actually creating jobs, hence they need to be run out of business for the betterment and enlightenment of others, as well as to make room for a new bunch of folks who actually are able to create good-paying jobs with outstanding benefits for American citizens in America . . .
The current bunch of so-called "job creators" primarily are focused on offshoring and outsourcing every American job and manufacturing ability, which includes routinely displacing American workers and replacing them with low-cost foreign workers here on a variety of temporary work and student visas, and they are slowly but surely driving the US economy into the dirt, as well as transferring all our advanced technologies and business practices to foreign countries, some of which have as their long term goals burying our great nation . . .
In other words, the idea that the current bunch of so-called "job creators" need special protections is patently goofy, because they are the primary problem, hence instead of needing to be protected, we need to run them out of business and out of the marketplace toward the goal of putting an end to their ongoing sneaky weaseling, where making them pay heavy taxes is an excellent start, really . . .
Really! :-o
We have had 30 years of tax cuts for your "job creators". Where are the jobs??????
Your "job creators" have failed at doing their job and will be punished.
milk it, they already have been punished. Obama, obama health care and not approving the pipeline from Canada, shall I go on. I can tell from your handle, that you are a bumb, looking for a handout so you can milk the system.
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
What has happened to Meet The Press over the decades? Used to be so cool watching the newman guy press people like this in the old days. Now, its just a talk and propagandize fest with that goofy Gregory the suck up fellow. Sad, like watching Chrissy Mathews go from a well informed and prepared interviewer to a blabbering psychotic coo coo clock over the past 20 years. Oh well.
The republicans have been trying to talk and figure out some cuts since the election. All the Pres has been doing is flying around on air vacation one campaigning in front of pre-determined welcoming crowds so he feels good. Oh wait, he did offer his ultimatum of tossing away the constitution and giving him unlimited borrowing power, adding 1.6 trillion, 60 billion in new surplus to pump into dummy corporations to pay back his campaign fundraisers, and cutting medicare 400 billion thus tossing granny off the cliff as they said the Repubs wanted to do although the repubs just wanted to improve its efficiency and cut the waste so it could survive in tact. But here is the Economist who never did anything in his life in the real world telling the world the Republicans are evil because they aren't raising taxes... yadda yadda. Not one cut except Medicare... not even the stupid robotic squirrels with not tails being bitten by rattlesnakes. Go home Mr. President, sit down, and work out a deal. And quit trying to run all over the constitution, that's creepy.
Where was the president when he should have been working on the budget? He was doing a VERY important job...riding Rosa Parker's bus? HUH?????
The Administration has put forward a proposal...good, bad, or indifferent. The ball is now in the Republican's court. Accept it or suggest an alternative.
The clock is ticking.
No, read stonehead6, it wasn't a proposal, it was an ultimatum.
By the way, anyone notice in the article it said the filthy ultra wealthy are those folks with 200k instead of 250k? Was that a typo, or has the standard for being super wealthy been lowered again?
Call it whatever you want, it can't pass Congress without some Republican support. So, Republicans either "negotiate" or take the blame for going over the cliff and back into another recession.
On the other...I believe it's always been $200K for single filers, $250K for joint filers.
$200K individual, $250k joint
Thanks. I just had the 250 stuck in my head. Talk to some friends in the NE once and a while. They make about that, and still seem to live pretty middle class to me. Everything costs a bunch up there.
Hmmm...probably so. I estimate that it requires a net worth of arounde $30 million to feel "genuinely rich" these days and ten times that to feel "super rich."
But, to give that some perspective on how well our overall economy has been doing, the median household income last year was around $50K...which translates into Romney's 47%.
Unless we prioritize the restoration of a larger, more prosperous middle class far and above simply making the rich, richer...both capitalism and democracy are dead in this country.
man you sheeple and the 47%. romney said that because 47% of americans live on gov assistence and they would vote for obama and his raise of more entitlements and he could never rely on their votes. Like when he said he would cut pbs funding and dems said he wanted to kill big bird totally immature thinking. wait till the health care bill really kicks in and the irs has to hire many more agents where is that money coming from he will need alot more money than the wealthy has to give
The IRS hiring has started. IRS is mandatd by Geithner and the President to hire 17,000 FULLTIME AGENTS WITH BENEFITS to POLICE small businesses to see that they are
above comment posted befor finished...sorry about that.
The IRS will POLICE small businesses so see that they are following OBAMACARE rules and COLLECT THE FINES.
Ya, it was 16k+ new agents and associated support personnel. Obama care is not going to be just healthcare, it is going to end up being another gigantic beaurocratic wasteland in just a few years like all huge government programs. Anyone know how many dollars it takes to send out one dollar to a Social Security recipient? How many FEMA dollars are spent for every dollar of direct emergency relief? How many dollars for each dollar that makes it to a local school that relates directly to their education? If you don't, you can wander through the CBO numbers anytime. There are also a bunch of independent agencies that compile data. But if you chase down a peek at the numbers, take your blood pressure medicines first!! :-)
BTW GWBush took a lot of crap over how FEMA was messed up for Katrina. Seems to me those people Obama visited in NY were sold a bill of goods when el presidente took them for a photo op. Why don't I see any articles about their outrage that things have not gone well under Obama with FEMA either. The media sucks. I'm all for calling any of them out when they are wrong, but apparently Obama always gets a pass.
What is the deal with Medicare, the insured paying in 100k over their lifetime, but Medicare Insurance paying out 300k? Isn't that how insurance works? We don't pay insurance premiums, the same amount we get out of it. Aren't we to assume insurance companies are safely investing those premiums for the purpose of paying out more. There in lies the problem, Congress doesn't invest it, they spend it.
Wouldn't Congress indict an insurance company for that practice? Not having the fiscal responsibility to invest premiums to cover their insured.
On another note, why aren't tax rates the same for everyone, including corporations, no exemptions, no deductions, no loopholes? Wouldn't that be fair. Never mind, I may have just answered my own question. It'd be fair, is that why we don't do it?
Congress seems to practice 'Enronomics' where they represent the Raptors.
Carljoe.....You are wrong when it comes to insurance. With insurance you pay in much more than you get out. They don't "invest" it, unless you are talking about pensions. Congress also didn't spend it. They invested it......in themselves.
Carljoe, how about this? put in a flat tax, starting at 35,000 and going up to the max amount anyone makes. No deductions, no loop holes no anything.Lets say 10%, man making 35,000 would pay 3,500 dollars and a individual making 150,000,000 a year would pay 1.5 mil. Seems good to me.
How about starting at $25,000.00?
Unreal, the problem with a flat tax is that the $3500 the family making $35K pays hits them a LOT harder than the 1.5 mil hits the family making 10.5 million. It's even worse when you ask a family making $20K to pay 2K. THAT'S what's wrong with flat tax - it LOOKS fair, but the impact on lower-income families is disporportionate.
lets give the rich bastards a tax break forever...that's what they want...so who is going to pay off the debt...and pay for future bills???when pass...when you give greedy bastard's a tax break forever..who will pay for the tab
Elvis -- Your stupidity can only possibly be outdone by your complete ignorance of how an economy works.
Don't take this too personally -- in reality this response is not directed specifically at you -- but to all of the Elvis' out there whose sole solution is the battle cry: "Tax those greedy rich people more -- that will fix just everything."
First off, the "rich" are only rich because they created industries and technologies out of nothing but their hard work, risk, and foresight into the future.
Bill Gates risked everything to create Microsoft. He certainly wasn't "rich" when he started this fledgling little company. He was a college dropout who was fighting for an idea and running on nothing but guts and determination. His success changed the way the world communicates and engages in business.
His putting everything on the line to create an industry where none existed before -- gave hundreds of thousands of people very meaningful employment -- and made many people, not just employed...but millionaires (who, of course, now pay taxes on their incomes -- so that people like you can have "free" healthcare.)
The same can be said of Steve Jobs, creator of Apple. He took nothing but an idea -- and turned it into a game changing industry, that gave hundreds of thousands very good paying jobs. And he, and all of his employees, PAY THE TAXES THAT THIS COUNTRY RUNS ON.
Going back in time a bit -- the exact same thing could be said of Henry Ford. Who, in his day, created something the world had never seen: assembly line production that became the model for industries for the next 100 years. His hard work, risk taking, and ingenuity were responsible for all of the very good paying factory jobs that this country has run on since the early 1900s. He also gave us an Automobile that the common man could actually afford to own. Before him -- only the very "rich" could even think of owning a car. He also paid his workers the highest wages in the world -- more than twice the average rate of pay.
He was not 'rich' when he started (in fact, went bankrupt more than once) -- However, his HARD WORK created jobs that have supported people well, given them meaningful employment -- and allowed them to raise their standard of living to the point where, they too, not just the "Rich" could have the pleasure of owning a car. His hard work raised the standard for the entire country and the effect of his ingenuity has created millions of jobs...that still exist to this day.
I could go on and cite another couple of thousand examples of men throughout the History of the United States, who started with nothing, and created entire industries that the rest of us rely on...in order to even have a job.
Yes -- these people eventually became 'rich." But, they didn't start that way! They got 'rich' because they provided the nation with products that have become the standard of life in the US, and have moved this country to the affluence we have enjoyed for the past 100 years. They also created the good paying jobs that the rest of us enjoy -- and if they hadn't -- the United States would still be living in log cabins and have a living standard on a par with Peru, or Cuba, or Haiti or... any of the 100s of other third-world countries.
America has had the highest standard of living in the world -- and it is ONLY because, these 'rich' people created the very jobs that allow us all to rise to greater heights.
And, you -- and the rest of the people who scream from the high-heavens; "Just tax those greedy 'rich' people into oblivion" will destroy this country yet.
For those "greedy" rich people, faced with taxation that will drive them out of business -- will be forced to take their businesses to countries where they are not taxed out of viability.
We are already seeing this. General motors (a company that we bailed out with our tax dollars) already does more business overseas...than here in the US!
Here again -- I could go on and name thousands of companies who are being forced out of the US by taxation.
Keep taxing them more -- and soon all of the 'rich' people will no longer be able to stay here and employ workers in our Country.
Forbes recently came out with a list of the 400 richest people in America. If you took ALL of their net worth -- 100% of everything they had...it would come to 1.6 Trillion. So, go ahead -- just skip the slowly taxing these people out of business -- and just take 100% of every single dollar that they have.
1.6 Trillion -- would not even put a DENT in the debt that our insane Politian’s have rung up!
After you have taken EVERYTHING the 'rich' have --and bankrupted them out of business; so that they no longer have businesses that employ the rest of us... what are you going to do then?
NEWS FLASH
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SHOWING MORE SIGNS OF BEING CORRUPT. HE IS IN BED WITH RICH SUPPORTERS
Costco co founder and CEO, Jim Senegal, a large supporter of Obama even speaking at the Democrat national convention get a special tax break. They were awarded a special dividend to avoid the Mr. Obama’s dividend tax increase
COPY AND PASTE BELOW IN BROWSER (Moderator does not allow links)
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578147513153831692.html
reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/us-costco-dividend-idUSBRE8AR0Q220121128
news.yahoo.com/costco-pay-7-special-dividend-december-18-145925944--sector.html
foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/30/tax-fairness-obama%E2%80%99s-friends-what-about-rest-us
why not let the congress men/women who want to spend pay for it . It's there pork projects. Where is all the money that went missing from the stimulas. Let them find it and while they are at it let's lock them all up for stealing and fraud.
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-
Their own conservative commentator, P.J. O'Rourke
nailed it: "The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't
work and then they get elected and prove it."
The offer is made and the offer isn't one where the Republicans can say it's not good enough, oh no, the offer
is one where the Republicans are going to have to squeal, rat out their own plan, let the nation know what the Republicans have to offer.
Before the election Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan and all of the Republicans said they won't talk the math or the details on the Republican plan until after the election. That is why they are freaking out because they
didn't win, hence want are they going to say, that they can't come up with a plan until we elect them in the White House and only until then? Even if it means 100 years from now if that's how long it takes for a Republican to win the White House?
We know why Republicans can't talk. Grover is their pimp and talking means ratting out, admitting they are Grovers prostitutes,admitting they treason-ed against the nation for Grover. That is the most humiliating admission Republicans and those who voted Republicans will have to confess to. The Republicans and those who voted Republican pledged to one man, a clown, a buffoon, an not to the Nation, the flag, to we the people.
you have that right
Geez Sally, you sound like a real Kunte.
sallyann, shame on you for being so dumb and twisting and changing everything to meet your needs. Sooner or later, our country will go broke and it will be fools like you yelling it's the republicans fault for not raising the tax on the rich and by the way, where is my welfare check and cheese?
sallyann Next time proof-read your post before clicking on the post comment. Maybe then you will make some sense.
WTFYFF, unreal-3070801, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
lets give the rich bastards a tax break forever...that's what they want...so who is going to pay off the debt...and pay for future bills???when pass...when you give greedy bastard's a tax break forever..who will pay for the tab
lets give the rich bastards a tax break forever...that's what they want...so who is going to pay off the debt...and pay for future bills???when pass...when you give greedy bastard's a tax break forever..who will pay for the tab
brendan4, I'm a baby boomer and payed social security for 49 years before I retired. When I was younger, I thought as you do. I would gladly take every cent I payed plus the preveiling interest rate on a year by year basis. I think I would have a pretty nice sum. As for medicare, I'd take the same deal. I don't see it as a big deal.
We both know this isn't going to happen, so just stop crying like a baby.
elvis payne, unlike u, the really rich probably know who their daddy is.
the us is the worlds base currency. We can write as many checks as we want, when were done- we can negotiate with the bond holders or pay it off through the fed. Having said that, Rates need to drop to around 18-20% for both individual and corporations and get rid of all deductions including all non-profits who game the system. This is the rate most governments and economies function effectively. This has been studied by economist for 40 years.... ALso, We have a bloated government starting with the welfare military and this transends all the way through to programs like the education department, energy, medicare and every other slush fund the pigs in washington want to spend. A blind squirrel could cut 25% and still not affect anything.
Hahahahahaha....OK, jolly joker, that was too funny! Now, what is your SERIOUS proposal?
Yep. too bad the right way of doing things will never happen. My proposal is to go over the cliff, everyone get on the talk shows and bad mouth each other --- than when stocks drop a about 5-6%, I swoop in and make some money ! . Thing is, when rates go up I plan on getting more tax deferral and muni's. Use your 401k, HSA and anything you can think of so you don't have to pay these pigs in washington.
lolly
Starting Jan.01,2013 the HSA accounts are CAPPED at $2500. Thus INCREASING TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS.
Good luck. If the market is dropping, why would rates go up? Seems you are still counting on inflation? Do you not need demand that exceeds capacity to cause inflation?
And, aren't the best of the muni's (in terms of returns) already being recalled and reissued at LOWER interest rates?
For various reasons (primarily poor economic policy over the last thirty years, coupled to demographics), the significance of the United States in the global economy is rapidly falling. Nevertheless, I believe we are still important enough that sliding into a second recession here would result in a global recession, leading to a global depression. No investment would be immune...including munis.
Markets are dropping instead of increasing for one simple reason. Corporations on average are making record profits, but often not sharing any of that profit with shareholders. Instead they lend the money to banks or pay down their own corporate debts. Some are even as concerned about their future business as much as the middle class can be. What it will take to change the situation may simply be a round of corporations being bought out with their own assets and loans in the corporate name paying back buyers in involuntary takeovers. In that environment a corporation with no debts and a wad of cash on hand is a prime takeover target. Ideally we need laws though that don't provide any way for corporations or hedge funds to take over any companies without paying their own cash with an option for the shareholders to convert half of the purchase price to stock in the buying company BEFORE the sale and prohibiting additional borrowing by the company being taken over for five years after its purchase.
During the election one article pointed out that the Obama investments in solar energy development have a 8% failure rate, while Mitt Romney's Bain Capital Hedge Fund purchases have historically had a 22% business closure rate within 8 percent of Bain's involvement. That is probably because Bain forced the companies into heavy debt to pay Bain back a return on its investment, leaving them highly vulnerable to downturns in the their industry or the economy at large.
Markets are dropping because the idiots in both parties are playing politics to the last hour with any possible agreement reached still meaning more debt and spending with small businesses and taxpayers being screwed as usual.
Here's comes QE4 and another credit rating hit from the S&P because of another debt ceiling increase thanks to the Financial Disaster in Chief proposal of an over $19 trillion increase. What a bunch of fuster clucks these financial terrorists are.
We, the people, need to take our country back from our corrupt elected officials who have destroyed this country from the inside out. This country is ran by The Wizard of Oz type elite. Now, when someone speaks like this, it sounds crazy, until you do some research. If you want to have an open mind, find out what the Council on Foreign Relations is. Educate yourself to who the Koch brothers are and what they control. How come there are 400 people in this country that truly hold 99% of the wealth. Than you have cities like NYC bleeding citizens for $13 for one way on a bridge, the 2nd biggest employer than the US government, Wal Mart, denying its employees affordable health insurance, and our government debating on whether to give Middle Class a tax cut?? @!$%# you and your $150 gs for life, not to mention 100's of thousands each makes yearly on pay offs . How can we let this happen. The rich will continue to get rich and the middle class will become the poor and we, the bottom feeders, will fight for the crumbs, while those holding the chips will continue to play us and force us off the board. Remember the board game Monopoly? Remember the strategy?Welcome folks. The deck is stacked.... Get Educated-