E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSUpdated at 6:35pm ET If you’re the parent of a college student and that first semester tuition bill just arrived in your mailbox, Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., held a hearing of particular interest to you on Wednesday.
J. Scott Applewhite / AP
Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., a member of the Senate Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee, steps off the Senate floor.
The issue Baucus was addressing: whether the array of tax breaks for higher education – 18 separate provisions in the tax code – can be simplified.
But if you’re that tuition-paying parent (or student) you probably already knew one point the expert witnesses made to the committee: the welter of different tax preferences for higher education – engineered by different Congresses over many years – is complex, probably duplicative in some cases, and not particularly user-friendly.
Recommended: Romney fights to retain economy as trump card
Baucus himself pointed in dismay at the 87-page Internal Revenue Service guide for obtaining education tax credits. “Based on the complexity of this guide, one would think the IRS expected all of America’s future students to want to major in accounting,” he said.
Even more disheartening was the message delivered by James White, director of Strategic Issues for Congress’s watchdog agency, the Government Accountability Office: The experts just don’t know which of the tax breaks is effective in getting students to attend and, more importantly, to finish college or university. (About 45 percent of students who start at a four-year institution don’t finish by getting a degree, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.)
The two biggest education tax preferences are the deduction for charitable contributions to colleges and universities (worth about $6.5 billion a year) and the Hope education tax credit (worth about $5 billion a year).
“Which ones work the best? Which ones do we pare back or perhaps even eliminate? We’ve got 529 (savings) plans, Coverdell (education savings accounts), the American Opportunity tax credit, a couple of others. What works for students and what really doesn’t work that much?” Baucus asked.
“We don’t know the effect on price (tuition) nor do we understand very well the impact on students’ access to education – the extent to which these programs affect that,” White replied. “What’s needed here to get you to the answer to the questions you’re asking is some better research by the Department of Education about the effect of these different programs on students’ access to education … the extent to which they go on to graduate, and what the ultimate outcome is for the billions of dollars being spent on these programs right now.”
Recommended: First Thoughts: Two opposing forces
Sen. John Thune, R- S.D., then asked how the different higher education tax breaks compare to each other in their cost effectiveness, and if Congress were forced to pick only one, which one should survive? Is an outright grant more effective than a tax credit?
White’s answer was equally discouraging: “Part of the problem here is that we are spending tens of billions of dollars on these programs and we don’t know the answer to the question you are asking,” he told Thune.
White said in an interview after the hearing, “You have to try to estimate statistically what would have happened without the (federal) assistance, and then you can figure out what difference the assistance makes. But that’s a challenging thing to do statistically and that’s why it hasn’t been done.”
He added, “you want to look at the ultimate benefit that the country is getting from the large amount of money that we’re spending on these programs."
Later Wednesday when the Senate approved a bill to extend current tax rates for most income earners, the bill included a one-year extension of the one of the education tax credits, the American Opportunity tax credit, first created in 2009. Baucus voted for the bill.
Asked about White's testimony about the lack of evidence about which breaks are effective, Baucus said, "Lots of other people do think they have an idea (about the effectiveness of education tax preferences). Financial aid directors at American colleges and universities have a pretty good idea of what students need, what works, what doesn't work."
As for the American Opportunity credit, Baucus said, "I think it's pretty effective."
Earlier at the hearing, another witness, Prof. Susan Dynarski from the University of Michigan School of Public Policy, suggested one practical step to help parents and students: make education tax breaks “advance-able” – paid at the time when people pay the tuition so they need not wait until the following April when they file their returns.
She also told the committee there was strong evidence in the research that streamlined financial aid forms would lead more students to attend college or university. “College attendance rose 7 percentage points among those allowed to use a vastly simplified proves for applying for aid,” she said in her written testimony.
Next year is shaping up as the moment for a once-in-a generation fundamental tax reform – eliminating tax breaks, flattening rates and broadening the tax base by making more income subject to taxation.
The result: a tax code that will be simpler, more efficient, less riddled with favors for specific groups, and – depending on your point of view – fairer.
If the Democrats retain control of the Senate, tax reform will be designed in large part by Baucus, who’s up for re-election in 2014.
But Baucus’s hearing Wednesday showed that despite the rhetoric about fundamental reform, the urge to engineer a better society through the tax code remains powerful. Baucus indicated that even after next year’s reform, both tax preferences for higher education and direct federal spending such as Pell Grants will continue to exist.
Stating one of the things on his to-do list for next year’s reform effort, Baucus ended the hearing by saying, “It seems to me we’ve got to simplify and streamline both the law” and the forms parents and students use to seek aid.
Leave a Comment:
Not worry, if the GOP gains power higher education will only be for "snobs", right Ricky Santorum?
Who is the GOP said that? Also why should people expect to get tax breaks all the freaking time? DEM want to get rid of them in some area and create more in other useless areas.
Also to add, if any benefits are to be awarded your major should weigh on any scholarship/tax breaks received. If your getting some BS lib arts degree (or equally valueless post graduation) then $0 should be awarded. (personnel belief) Instead award the benefits to the positions is great need in our country like ME, EE, MD, CS etc programs where people are actually needed and adds to the middleclass... To many "starving artists" today.....
What are the biggest expenses in life?
Housing .... and big government, in their social engineering, engineered the collapse of the economy.
Health care ... and big government focuses on health care instead of jobs and the economy coming out of a recession - passes the biggest entitlement in American that has helped cripple any recovery, done nothing to lower cost, has resulted in less people being insured, has 80% of private practice docs strongly against it and threatens our health and economy for years to come.
College ..... and big government takes over the financing, does nothing to lower skyrocketing cost (other than $8-$10 in interest expense) and we now have college debt over a TRILLION owed by all Americans.
Cars ... and big government takes over the auto industry resulting in Chrysler now being owned by Italians and GM that has now hired over 35,000 Chinese employees (in China)... all while getting as much as $40 billion in free taxes in addition to $49.5 billion in tax payer bailout.
This ain't working "folks."
Sad...the GOP wants to end tax breaks to college students but not for the rich. Pay attention people, they want a plutocratic society...its blatantly obvious.
GimDan...College kids deserve a break because they are studying to better themselves, there for benefiting our country when they pay higher taxes from that better job. The rich don't need sh1t....except to pay their fair share.
Do you even know what the words "common good" even mean?
And all you rightiess need to stop with you're weak a$$ faux news talking points like "basket weaving degrees" and "BS lib arts degrees",these regurgitated, overused, stupid comments are getting old.
Socialist, Go read the article.
That was some pathetic spin.
And learn the proper use of "you're", please
So many of my co-workers and family's children are now taking 5-6 years to graduate instead of 4. Some because they can't make up their minds on their majors and a lot because they party too much the first two years away from home and parents. There are still plenty of scholarship opportunities for real academics who study hard.
Um..I read the article.
The talk is happening right now in the Senate. The GOP doesn't want to kill the tax "break" on anyone making over 250k and they want to kill the education credits, pandering to the rich once again.
Now Elliot....do you fairly pay YOU'RE taxes.
And since we are on the subject of grammar....why did you capitalise "Go" after the comma??
Our son is on track to graduate next year after six years. Cost is only one part of the equation. Universities are doing some very stupid things:
*Advertise a class as admission by instructor or adviser approval, and then the instructors or advisers don't answer their emails or calls. And surprise! The class is cancelled at the last minute due to a lack of enrollment. By the time they cancel the class it's tough for students to fill that hole in their schedule, particularly when the only classes they can take instead are already full. (Actually, we've seen this at both the Community College and University levels.)
*Schedule three upper level courses required for graduation during a single semester and overlapping each other on the same day. It doesn't take a math genius to realize that it's going to be difficult for a student to graduate in four years with this scenario.
Schools have got to get their administrative acts together on these fronts. I've had parents of students in other schools tell me their kids are facing the same problems.
Tax credits exist due to the high cost of attending school. Without these tax breaks the number of graduates would no doubt drop. We are already slipping behind educationally in this country we don't need to remove an incentive for higher education.
The article states:
The issue of completing school is indeed a real problem. A number of schools obtain fees from government agencies and have very poor graduation rates. Here in San Diego Ashford University's (part of Bridgeport Education) accreditation has been called into question due to the poor graduation rate. Perhaps one solution is to allow a tax deduction only if the student is enrolled in a school with an appropriate rate of graduation, say greater than 65%. Additionally, those that get the tax credit and then fail to graduate could be required to payback a prorated share of the credit, e.g. fail to complete 50% of your degree program be required to payback 50% of the tax credit. This should fall to the student, not the parent. Perhaps through a higher student loan interest rate?
@Gimdan,
JFK had a liberal arts degree, so did, Sally Ride, Brian Lamb, Harold Varmus, Jill Barad, Ellen Bravo, Carol Browner, and Christopher Meloni.
And....here is a list of more famous liberal arts grads: http://greatcollegeadvice.com/famous-graduates-of-liberal-arts-colleges/
......
While many in the GOP believe that all tax breaks for the poor and middle class should be eliminated, for many the tax breaks make it possible for students to go to college, without them, college would be out of reach.
Unlike Mitt Romney and his kids, most kids don't have parents with an extra $20,000 to loan them so they can go to college (or start a business.)
But then again, hey, Mitt Romney can do it all by himself, he doesn't need any college graduates to help him.
The article never acknowledges the basic fact that the education tax deductions and credits are available only to lower and some middle income taxpayers, but the tax reducing value of any of them is very small relative to the tuitions being charged. In other words, they are not a large incentive to the average household. None of them are structured to "make it possible for students to go to college". If you can't pay for college by other means, these deductions and credits offer very little help.
That's not the point, CME. You see, what these libs here want is to avoid paying taxes themselves, but to soak those "evil rich"...... you know, who already pay a huge majority of the total tax bill. Actually, the libs use it to mask their intense hate for anybody who is more successful than they are.
Sorry bub...
I proudly and fairly pay my taxes year in and year out...
Do you?
Hate....hell, I almost feel sorry for these materialistic a$$holes whom cant stomach their lives without their McMansions, fancy clothes, Bimers....and all that other BS that means nothing.
Live within you're means and pay you're fair share....not too tough.
it's really education and tech inventions that have put the US over the top in the world. I wonder why GOP wants to cut it - maybe because college graduates vote overwhelmingly Democratic.
Get stuck on stuPig?
Hey Spider:
This "lib" pays enough in taxes to equal a decent middle class salary. Federal income taxes, state income taxes, property taxes, sales tax, social security, medicare, etc. Been doing it for more than 40 years. So save me from your ignorance as to what we libs supposedly want.
@GimDan:
First off a BS degree stands for Bachelor of Science, which is not a liberal arts degree.
Second, liberal arts does far more than teach a specific subject. Liberal arts teaches students the skills that they need to educate themselves throughout their lives. Some of the degrees that you mentioned (particularly Computer Science) may be fields of high demand now, but by the time a student graduates, much of that demand may have been met or off-shored. Then you are left with a narrow education and none of the skills required to change fields without more education.
Eric-913730- That is it? Seriously? Point to a small handful of people? Middle class consists a lot more then that and its not lib arts my friend!
American Socialist- They study hard but to what end? To wind up on wallstreet because they can't find a job making $40K-$75K a year with theater studies, dead languages, etc like their science counterparts? Don't get me wrong, the kids work hard, but its self improvident courses that do not pay, simple enough.
I also pay some hefty taxes as well and live comfortably. I will say that the tax code needs to be fixed to close said loopholes and BS tax credits. Flat tax rate across the board to start and get rid of outdated tax credits like the dependents credit. Its outdated and now a crutch to so many people for what? We are no longer suffering a population shortage or involved in mass casualty wars. Fix the capital gains tax rates as well, mark it at the same rate as the earned income taxes. etc... Equal playing field basically!
composer- BS = to "bull @!$%#", now that is clear.
If that is so, why are so many unemployed/underemployed compared to their science and heath counterparts? ;) Do explain.......
Wait, so your saying the fields that have been most in demand for the past 15 years, extremely short staffed in the USA stunting the growth of many companies here in the USA today? Software development will not leave the USA unless its for simple garbage. The best and most advanced software and hardware comes from the US and its always extremely underemployed thanks to the lack of skilled workers. You see where you have your short mindedness is that the US does not specialize is mass production when it comes to these developments, the focus is on research and development of new and innovative systems and software, ever pushing the boundary.
The tech/heath field is growing exponentially in the US. Look at where we were 5 years ago, 10 years ago, etc... While other nations are trying to copy what we have, new innovations are already in the works and being deployed.
Okay now lets look at your post for a minute as you contradict yourself:
You say this:
Then a few lines later about CS majors:
No need to explain what is wrong with that as its clear enough. Next, a lib art degree requires far more education to change fields then any science degree for the most part! EE, ME, MD, Bio, etc... all require advanced math/sci classes that make it very easy expand education. ME's can knock out an EE fairly quickly or jump to any other E field and still make more than decent wages!
Alright, ready for your rebuking. ;)
Well, here's the problem... unemployment among recent grads is 50%!!! No matter what you say, no matter how you say it, our economy cannot absorb new entries into the job market! Not even at the highest education levels! It is time to make China play with the rest of the world! No longer can they be allowed to control their currency! It must float at its true value!
But, I don't expect that anyone else will understand this...
EEngineer- agree completely but what can the US really do on its own? It would have to be a complete global boycott before anything would would happen... I don't see a lot of countries hopping on that train anytime soon!
Kids today take 4 years to "find themselves" and "find a major"! Pathetic. For me it should be after 2 semesters, they must declare or get kicked out! Kids should go to school full time all summer at JCs or at the U. That pathetic part time job they get, they spend all the money on booze and stupid crap! Make them go to school!!! They can finish in 3 years, have less tuition at JCs and still finish with a great education. If you can't afford Harvard, go somewhere else. That "Ivy League" school is not going to get you a job these days. Heck good luck getting one after graduating anywhere! Education with no experience. Employers say, NEXT!!!
Just changed my beneficiary on my life insurance to my granddaughter to pay for her college education. Sad. Husband could probably use the dollars.
Planning on dying so your granddaughter can pay for a college education. That's a little drastic, isn't it?!
Better watch out if your granddaughter starts insisting you try her apricot flavored tea and raw almond cookies. :)
Don Larsen, only MLB pitcher to throw a perfect World Series game, is selling off much of his memorabilia to pay for his grandkids college educations. Not sure what is worse, his selling off his personal treasures or the fact that the uniform he wore that day is estimated to be worth $250,000.
Whats wrong with the kids working full time and going to night school? Going to the big schools is alot more expensive and alot more parting as well. The big universites have always been for the richer folks. Nothing wrong with working and paying your own way.
CME,
I am dying. I have chemo everyday. According to the docs, I have 3 months left. Any questions? Why the disrespect towards me?
High rolla: Ignorance breeds Ignorance. First: Consider the actual Academic hours required to give classes both during the day and add the Evening hours that would be required for all Colleges and Universities. You are talking about doubling the number of people now required since they must teach the same courses both during the day and at night to remain accredited. Secondly, the Colleges and Universities may exist in places that have no jobs available except for burger-flippers.
Even Techinical Schools have difficulty doing this.
Better Solution (but not politically possible) would be the requirement for Graduates to be required to commit three years either in the Military or an acceptable alternative. After this commitment is over, that person, male or female, will be better suited to either enter the workplace or into Higher Education and may even qualify for monitary help from the Feds and Businesses. PS: The Military already has both Trade and Higher Education Courses available to personnel now which can supplement.
What is needed is both Trade (2 year Technical Schools) and well rounded College and Universities. A Trade School Graduate may be able to fix your HVAC, but would you trust a two-year University Graduate to act as your CPA or,even, your Doctor or Surgeon? If a two-year College could offer everything that was needed for a BA or BS, then it would not be a two-year College but, perhaps, a four year one.
PS: Please remember that if it takes five or more years to graduate from a four year College, it may well be that the Student could not pass his courses. That makes it the Student's fault. And if the Student changed his field mid-stream, it is still his/her fault. ETC. ETC.
But, what you don't have to do is ask what benefit there is in invading and occupying any country you please, and for a lot more money than we spend on education.
Nothing besides there are simply no jobs for 50% of them, and those who do get into 'night school' (otherwise known as private, no public schools work around a job) will end up paying $100,000 for a Bachelor's degree... Good luck saving that up on minimum wage.
why don't we stop requiring kids in college to take PE classes when their major has nothing to do with it? My son has spent WAY too much money for "required" classes that teach him nothing ~ as far as the "well rounded" argument...I say BS
Teach them what they need to know and get them out of college and it would be FAR less expensive and wouldn't take 4 years... common sense and too simple to actually work.. I know
Tamzangel, I agree...I would even go a step further. Nowadays most of the Gen Ed requirements at university are things the kids already had in high school. Most of the BA degree is just a repeat of what kids at decent high schools have already had. To get the BA/BS, students should just be required to take their major courses; this would take a maximum of two years. This way students could have the BA and MA in four years.
I hope it isn't a pre-existing illness. The policy will be denied.
I agree that the IRS Tax Code should be simplified as ordinary Citizens would gain much including our Students who must pass the Maze before receiving any grant or loan. However we must consider both K-12 and Higher Education in the equation. Why K-12? Simple. Many States require only MINIMUM education for K-12. In South Carolina that means that most students are unpaired for entry into Higher Education within Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) Programs as well as in the use of the English language (meaning proper writing capabilities in ALL Programs offered).
As to Standardized Testing, the Teachers spend days by using previous tests that their students must take prior to their taking the new one. However, most students still score low because some Courses are never taught, such as Calculus which is required in any of the STEM Programs within many of the Colleges and Universities. As to English, many of the minimum education States only require Students to take a MINIMUM number of English classes.
The fact is that the United States has dropped, in all K-12 Education as well as Higher Education, to the level of a Third World Country.
This isnt a D/R thing, the conversation should be about making Bachelor Degrees a 2 yr process instead of 4 yr. Get rid of all the unimportant electives that arent needed. that would cut tuiton by 50%- but that just makes sense....
Those "unimportant electives" are the difference between a well-rounded education and a glorified trade school.
I wished many times that I could avoid all breadth requirement classes and focus on my core classes for my major.
Some schools will actually say that they require these extra classes as a way to experience different subjects. This is total BS; all this is for is to give professors a job. This is like paying someone to dig a hole and fill it back up--this reeks of crony/union capitalism.
Yeah, it's BS - until you actually have to write something!
And what's so wrong with going to a trade school? There are so many people in my graduating class alone that had no business in college, and they would admit it, and only went because "That's what you do after high school" only to drop out two years later and get trade jobs anyway.
We need to re-evaluate who needs college and how much emphasis we put on it. Too many people go, pay tons of money, and either don't graduate or get a waste of a degree which has no job future. College doesn't make you a good or successful person, and I think we need to stop acting like you can't make it without going to college. Does it help, sure...it probably does for many people...but for a large percentage, it just doesn't make sense and puts them farther behind that they would have been anyway.
In fact, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the annual salary average differences between educational levels is staggering:
That means, over the course or working 40 years, someone with a high school diploma will make $1,116,600 while someone with a bachelor’s degree will make $2,048,204. That’s nearly a million dollars more!
http://howtoedu.org/college-facts/how-much-more-money-do-college-grads-make/
Don't read too much into these averages -- they are merely part of a fairly broad range with a lot of overlap from group to group. There are many trade skills that pay the high school graduate a very decent wage -- auto mechanic, auto body repair, plumber, electrician, finishing carpenter, to name several. The salaries paid for these skills far exceed those earned by some white collar admin position requiring a college degree. College isn't for everyone and for those not interested in college, there are lots of attractive options.
auntie fascist is revealing her elitism -- nothing beats standing around the BBQ and regaling the neighbors with your encyclopedic knowledge of art history. I agree that courses that improve communications skills are very necessary no matter what your core program's degree requirements are. However, some of the "electives" offered wouldn't be missed. But the bigger issue are the several useless degree programs that are at just about every school. Fact is, we have too many post-secondary, degree granting schools in this country. With the population declining, many schools are trying to sell older people on the value of going back to school and trying to entice as many foreign students as they can (some have recruiters in other countries to help get those applications rolling in). Given the number of schools that offer "remedial" courses for incoming freshmen, they also try to bring in the unprepared and, in many cases, the uninterested. The result is the 50% dropout rate.
There is nothing wrong with a trade school or the trades themselves. However, if you are interested in being a well educated person, who learns not just the requirements of their chosen profession, but also has the ability to appreciate art, philosophy, history, literature as well as subjects outside of their chosen profession, then the "unimportant electives" are needed.
If what you want out of your higher education experience is to purely learn only what you need to get your foot in the door of whatever profession you want, then by all means, go to one of the for profit schools which will push you through like a fast food customer. It is unlikely you will advance much beyond the entry level position, since you do not have the education to look beyond your profession, but hey, "ya gets what ya pays for."
marionc
"And what's so wrong with going to a trade school? "
Nothing. I'm a big fan of it. Not everyone is college material. Just don't try to pawn off college without electives as a college education.
If we need all the "garbage" courses to graduate with a 4-year (or 5 or 6 or 7) degree, please explain to me why so many of the classes are closed when freshmen are finally allowed to enroll. The universities have a vest interest in keeping students in school longer: the schools get more money, thereby keeping more left-wing, socialist, liberal, activist "professors" employed.
The University of Kansas began a soul-searching process this year that offered early retirement, buyouts, severance pay to up to 545 professors and staffers to cut the budget, limit tuition increases, and try to prevent education inflation. If KU can do this to survive, why shouldn't every school look to see what garbage could eliminated to help students out?
My wife worked at Kansas Wesleyan University for 2 years as an adjunct professor. She taught two classes, had no benefits (provided through my job), and spent about 20 hours per week functioning in her teaching capacity. Wesleyan obtained the services of an outstanding teacher, provided the two classes she taught, and was able to maintain a reasonable educational experience for elementary education majors without having to raise tuition those two years. All schools should be encouraged to use this method as an alternative to putting high-priced, fulltime faculty on the payroll for parttime work.
dirp and Aunitie Fascist:
+1. You have it figure out, too bad other folks don't. How many 18 year olds really and truly know what they want to be when they grow up. I've seen too many kid who think they know, spend their first year or two in school loading up on courses for their major and then change majors to something entirely different. There goes a year or more of work and money.
Bob in KC:
Wake up and get with the times. More and more universities are shedding full time profs and hiring adjuncts at $2,000 or so a course. When state legislatures cut university budgets the effects ripple down the line. I know of departments that have 2 and 3 times as many adjuncts as they do full time profs. I've seen more bad adjuncts than good ones, especially the ones from business and industry who tell war stories and provide little real educational value.
dirp,
I am a big believer in trade schools. When I need a plummer - I want a skilled plummer not an English major.
dirp & CME
I am married to a tradesman - HVACR. Big fan of the trades
Under todays's rules, they would only offer an Associate Degree.
Eric-913730...you probably shouldn't believe those figures. I hold a PhD from UVA and nearly all of my friends have PhDs; one was even a Rhodes Scholar in Mathematics. Guess what....more than ten years out and most of us make between $20-50K/year. My Rhodes Scholar friend in Germany (he received his doctorate from a university in Berlin) is between jobs but has generally made less than $35K/yr (in US dollar equivalent income).
"The result: a tax code that will be simpler, more efficient, less riddled with favors for specific groups, and – depending on your point of view – fairer."
S-u-u-u-u-r-r-e!!!!!!!!!
Get rid of the IRS......let's go with "The Fair Tax".
By "Fair Tax," are you meaning a flat tax, whereby everyone actually does pay their "fair" share of taxes, or a return to the hyperregressive tax system where high earners pay 70% or more of their income in taxes?
Here is a very simple tax code: Gross Income Tax with absolutely no deductions, credits, or any other means of reducing the taxable income. First $25K of each individual income earner (all filings would be as individuals, not as couples, families, etc.) tax free, Income over $25K up to $250K 15% tax rate, income over $250K up to $750K 30%, and all income over $750K 45%. Gross income means ALL sources of income (wages, investments, estates, alimony, etc.)
What about a consumption tax?
@phine: You already have that on local, state and federal levels. Federal includes liquor taxes, gas taxes, cigarette taxes, etc., and they are all considered "regressive" taxes, except the "luxury" tax (furs, gems, etc.)
@bob: you mean like Ike's 90% tax rate on the wealthy? I'm all for that, especially since at that time there weren't as many deductions, credits, etc. that the wealthy get today that wipe out much of their taxable income.
Fair tax, consumption tax, national sales tax, call it what you wish. Do you have a clue how many IRS auditors it will take to manage the system you wish to create? Florida has 300 in state tax auditors that collect an average of $300K per year at a 7% sales tax rate. How much and how many IRS auditors will it take to collect roughly a 45% federal tax that you wish to create? That's right 45% when all the taxes and fees are added up and included in your new tax (excise, federal unemployment, social security, income taxes, the list goes on and on). And don't forget to add in the local sales taxes and fees. Your idea just won't work and it will kill the local economy. Can you imagine paying a 55% additional tax on a product if you live in NY or Florida? Ain't gonna happen. And then how many independent store owners will remit all of the tax they collect? Think man, think before you write about these taxes. It is not worth the cost to establish and one thing for sure, the federal government will never ever collect the money it had coming to them.
Yeah, get rid of the credits! That benefits everybody including those of us smart enough NOT to have the little brats!
I'm really getting tied of the woes is me nonsens about paying for an education...the typical state un costs less than 10K a year if you aren't overpaying ofr the dorm and crappy food on campus....further
Isn't it interesting that many who complain they can't afford college have had all the latest gadgets instead?
We were told that a state university education would cost about $16K for for years. So we planned for $20K. Sounds prudent, doesn't it? Then our state deregulated tuition rates and they skyrocketed too fast for some families to adjust their planning.
Rick: I see you have not bothered with the basic English writing requirements, so I'm guessing you are not an Ivy League graduate.
Sure and while I'm going for the 5 years it takes on average, is it alright if I just crash with you and let you pay my rent, food, housing, transportation, and all the other costs that are not included with that 10K? Since I'm going to be going to public I need a way to get to all 5 of their campuses and rearrange my schedule every 6 months completely around, maybe you will help me find a job that doesn't mind shifting my schedule every week based on tests and homework needs as well?
No one, and I mean no one, finishes a degree because a tax break. People finish their degrees if they have the initiative. Period. If a college degree is important to a person, then the person will find a way to get it.
Ya...if you need a tax break to influence you to finish a degree, you probably don't have the drive to be there in the first place.
I couldn't agree more. The tax breaks are nice, but really not as much as you think. I worked hard and graduated in the 4 year window. Sure I deducted everything I could, but I saw it as a bonus, not a means to an end. I paid for college myself (with the help of an academic scholarship earned while in high school) and graduated with only $2,000 in loans. I'm now in the middle of PA school and thanks to my wife, only have to take out loans for tuition, not for living expenses.
Will I take advantage of the tax breaks? Of course. Would I drop out if they weren't there? Of course not.
If the US offered more reasonably priced public education opportunities, we wouldn't need tax deductions.
During a time of decreasing real wages for the majority of Americans, tuition costs have risen faster than inflation -- even higher than healthcare costs.
In many countries, higher education is much less expensive for the individual because of public investments in education.
The following site, Education at a Glance by Tony Bates, has some information that you may find worth reading.
()
Here are a few nuggets to consider:
Education at a Glance shows that public resources invested in education ultimately pay off in even greater tax revenues.
The USA has the dubious distinction of having the highest non-completion rate, at over 50%, followed by New Zealand, Sweden and Mexico. Korea and Japan have the lowest rates (10% and 15%).
Recent research shows that increases in tuition fees in public universities in the USA are almost in line with reductions in funding from state governments (McPherson and Shulenburger, 2010). However, because so much of state funding goes into maintenance and infrastructure, the extra tuition has not gone into maintaining or increasing instructors or faculty, but into administration and overheads.
The USA has one of the lowest tax revenues per capita in the OECD. If citizens won’t pay taxes, then public services are likely to suffer.
What a crock! Parents just don't want to foot the bill for their little monsters!
6.5 BILLION for charitable contributions, millions/billions contributed by state and fed govt and tuition is STILL increasing. Theses schools are a rip off. They stick small children in portable classrooms but these teens/young adults need a fancy palace to learn in.
Ah! College will only be for the wealthy regardless of how bright they are. Bright, poor kids will be unable to go to college. We may be headed for a plutocracy but don't be worried. Plutocracies have a way of fading away due to inbreeding but it may take a long time to do so.
If the democrats have their way, they will just forgive any college loans to illegals and up the interest on military and anyone else that works for a living!
But the genius republicans will keep on trying to tax the middle class at 3x the amount of millionaires and think they are actually going to get $200,000 (plus interest) from a 22 year old.
It's not the Dems giving them the credit. Read buddy, you may learn something.
It's all a total waste of money. Give someone a college education and then only provide a Walmart or McDonald's for employment: WASTE OF MONEY, as well as time, and mental health.
Eighteen separate provisions in the tax code dealing with college tuition tax breaks! That is so typical of congress. For some reason the people we send to congress feel obligated to pass laws. Why? Is the $10,000 question. People from both parties complain that we have a do nothing congress. Well, maybe that is exactly what the doctor ordered. On reason the federal government is so big and so ineffective, is because we have laws upon laws. Immigration is a prime example. People are crying for new immigration laws. Heck, we have immigration laws. Just maybe the laws that are currently on the books should be enforced. There are many others, I'm sure, that are just like it. Stop writing laws and let the current laws work. That brings up another subject. Why do we need a year-around congress. Two 3 month sessions should be plenty. It would also save the us tons of money in salaries and expenses associated with the congress.
Let Washington be like Texas and meet every other year. And why do we have 450+ state representatives. With the internet etc., we have way to many of them and their administrative staffs.
Throwing money into the fire and our under performing US government.
Decades of over paid unethical people.
Wait till the health care bill gets nested into the IRS
I thought we were waiting to simplify the tax laws - What a bunch of losers.
tax reform is long over due and hope next year they'd really do it in term of simplification with no more than 10 page code, with all or most deductions/tax breaks gone forever!
education saving account, and healthcare saving account should be saved but broadened to eliminate the plan restrictions while make them available for all. all other government education programs and credits should be eliminated or start a few from scratch. with all those current programs and fed money spent, Congress doesn't even have an idea or statistics about any of them, which means some hugely wasted tax money, and the contributions to high rising tuition in colleges and universities.
let's hope for a real tax reform, unless some idiots will be elected again to Congress and presidency.
The best thing educators and government can do is start to be honest with students and parents and guide their young ones into college or technical school programs that lead to licensure or certificate programs of a 2 year length or less that will give their child enough education to get a good local paying job. Two year colleges and tech schools offer scores of these programs and very little is mentioned about it. Face it a four year degree is useless today in most fields of study. AA, AS, Licenses and certificates in (say) IT, LPN, RN, (the list is long), EMS, yada yada, and Masters and beyond is what is in demand today.
Google Florida's Seminole State College and read up on their 50+ programs of study to see what I am getting at. I am sure you have similar educational programs locally that will get young students out of college and into the workforce into darn good paying jobs. If the student wants to get more education after landing a job ... fine. Sometimes employers will kick in some money to help out.
Get a load of this.
Americans are in debt for more than a trillion dollars for higher education and Baucus couldn't find someone in authority to answer those obvious, urgent questions? Heads should roll.
A thorough accounting of American education would show that it is bloated and ineffective in many ways. American education has become as self-serving and crass (with some exceptions, thank god) as US healthcare, US banks and our military. We will end up like Europe (Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, etc.) if we carry on doing as we are doing now.
The rising cost of education can be tied to legislation and the creation of the Dept. of Education. What we have to show for FEDERAL government intervention
...Federal government intervention is inflation, larger debt burdens, and the growth of the "for-profit" industry. The for-profits take the largest percentage of minority loan funds.
Let states be responsible for education. Our "upper management" is failing us.
Whatever happened to savings and earning your way? Instead of making more "loans" available, how about incentives to save for education instead? 529's are great but they could be much better. The "kids" are around 18 years before college, yes it's tough to make ends meet let alone save but young people need to learn to do for themselves, work and save for what they want not borrow for everything in our "how much a month" world. Yes, we positively need more emphasis trade schools, and college should also put a "plan B" into the courses, wonderful to be a philosopher but also learn to be a plumber so you can earn a living while looking for the dream job. It's not always how much you have it's what you do with it that matters......
mzannie
Are you referring to the old fashion way?
Apparently our representatives feel there is more money to be made by growing the lending business. Get FEDERAL government out of the student loan business.
Create more incentives to save; for education, for retirement, for emergencies.
Throw out the Democrats proposal for higher estate taxes, threatening family generational wealth. Abolish estate taxes.
Whatever happened? Oh apparently you didn't bother to find out the cost of college has doubled in the last 10 years, and roughly doubled the previous 3 decades before that as well. Why would you think saving is the answer when annual cost increases are tripling general inflation?
knightofdespair
Compare a historical chart of college cost against a timeline of government involvement in education.
Look at housing. Look at health care. Whenever the FEDERAL government gets involved, you can pretty much bet that prices will go up.
Cut the supply of cheap, taxpayer guaranteed money and we have a shot at slowing cost.
I'm fully aware that drives up the cost, same thing with housing, healthcare like you say... What do you expect when a for profit industry has millions of people over a barrel? Its not like the majority of the country is going to say college is overpriced, guess I'll just wait 20 years for it to drop, or wait 20 years to buy a house, or wait 20 years for that operation... When a service has inelastic demand of course the party seeking such services will try to offer whatever it takes to get it - even if it is wildly out of line with what the service is actually worth or what they can afford.
MJ - Generational wealth *should* be threatened. You talk about people making it on their own, saving, and working. But for some reason you are totally ok with the breeding of aristocracy. When you have children of priveledge who always have had everything they want and never have to work for anything, and then they grow up to be the adults who run things you get...well...you get Mitt Romney. Parents want to leave a little something for their kids, fine. It's when you have parents leaving empires to their kids that I have issues, and if you did *any* research on the estate tax, you would see that empires are what it targets.
Terry
I'm not looking to breed aristocracy. If you think that all kids born with silverspoons runs things, that's fine.
I'm talking about the lower classes. If you were the first to "make it", do you want to be subject to an estate tax? The Dems are proposing 45% over $1,000,000. Often thought of as a rich tax, it's also keep the poor down tax.
The fact that there is a tax on your estate after you've paid taxes on your earnings and investments is another issue.
Also, leaving more than a little something would help in housing and tuition. The federal government seems intent in messing things up.
Everyone complains about the high cost of Higher Education, but no one takes into consideration that the full-time and part-time faculty don't cut the grass.
Basing my percentages on a university I am well aquainted with, the full-time staff to full-time faculty ratio is 2 to 1 and the part-time ratio is 1 to 1. Costs for faculty, research, and staff are about equal, while income from tutition, goverment grants, and private funding are also about equal.
So if you wonder what the ratios are for other major universities and colleges, the staff and faculty totals for every college and university are published on a web site that the public can access (National Center for Educational Statistics).
BTW, the staff cuts the grass!
Education bubble created by the flow of cheap government money. Look at the growth of the for-profit institutions.
Which came about because for profit institutions priced whole swaths of the public out of vital needs. The middle class needs houses, the middle class needs education, the middle class needs healthcare. These are things they will do whatever it takes to get... The only answer is to either assist them to meet the costs or drive the costs down to meet what the middle class can pay... One is a republican idea and the other is democrat, guess which one got enacted? The answer is the one that enriches a few people beyond their wildest dreams for doing nothing and saddles an entire generation with long term debt, aka the republican one.
It's called the transfer of wealth. They convinced us to save a lot of money for our kids education. Now they are taking it because we are paying it.
Look at all the political favors being payed in the form of speaking fees. Kasick in Ohio was paid $50K at Ohio state. Srah palin, Bristol palin etc. ..
One thing I have learned that no matter how smart you are nor how many degrees you have if you can't get along with people, you aren't going to make it in this world. Look at all the educated people in Washington, constantly fighting and solving nothing. Heck, reduce the Senate to 50 people and the Congress to 200, if they continue to just vote down party lines, we get the same nothingness with less cost.
I like that plan.
I had proposed the reinstitution of dueling. Randomly select two participants from the committee, House, or Senate folks involved. Duel to death. Televise on pay-per-view to generate revenue.
Then I thought about the unintended consequence; compromise.
They don't get along because their sponsors have differing ideas of what their moneyed version of America should look like. You didn't see such stubbornness until bribes and lobbyists became the voice on our representatives shoulders, prior to that it was either their own arguments or the will of the public.
Those that can't get along with anyone are all republicans.
Max Baucus need to GO!
It's not about Political Ideology, religious fundamentalist. It's the Federal Government!
It is a Living, Breathing Monster. Everybody has to put up or shut up!
When the Fed's can make Billions out of Us. Regardless of whether there is Republicans or Democrats holding any and all offices. They will continue until they bleed us Dry.
Blaming Hippies, Red Necks, Believers and Non Believers, NRA and OWS is just what they want to keep Happening. It's no longer a Left or Right Issue. It's the People vs. Government.
So Long as were divided, they'll keep growing. Government has no Ideology. They have no Opinion. They just are everything to everybody. We are too divided to take care of it Ourselves. They can only exist as long as we blame each other.
When we can act like Adults, we can start to take back control. Until than, turn your Head and Cough.
Remember:
"The Natural progress of things is for Liberty to Yield, and Government to gain ground." by Thomas Jefferson
If not Me than Who?
Vote with Your Brain not Your Heart!
Study History and You can Predict the Future
I'm in agreement the whole tax code needs to be simplified. As to the Dept of Education getting involved to peoples dismay, with the growth of for profit schools and educational programs the department has a obligation to students, and the taxpayers, to make sure they are legit and weed out the fraudulent ones. So for all the people who say there is too much government intervention the government wouldn't be involved if some people weren't crooks, or incompetent in the field of education, or for that matter in any aspect of our lives.
Get rid of the Dept of Ed. That should be a parent's job.
Any economist worth his price will tell you that the value of any targeted benefit or subsidy is ultimately captured by the vendor--the university, health care provider, or homebuilder or seller. Eliminate all the government loans, subsidies, tax benefits, etc. for each of these items, and over a reasonably short period of time we will see the net price of each come down as prospective buyers consider the real costs and potential benefits, buy less, and demand better value. For homeowners and college students, there would have to be transition rules to protect those who bought under the old rules, and for medical expenses, some consideration for catastrophic expenses-e.g., more than $25,000 per year. Otherwise, we can save a lot of tax dollars, reduce the debt, and reduce the dependence of the American people on Big Government to provide goods and services it has no business providing.