Would someone PLEASE explain to me how Social Security, an allegedly self-funded, lock box program which is already going broke due to insufficient funds vs. outflow, is being "protected" for the elderly and future generations by cutting off the funds that pay for the benefits.

PS IOUs to ourselves don't count as protection. Waiting to hear...

Paul- I would like to point out that, payroll tax cut's only apply to working people.

Obama has championed the middle class and the poor class since he's been in office. He has pushed for the payroll tax cuts which favor the middle class, he has pushed for extended unemployment benefits, the Making Home Affordable Act, financial reforms and a new watchdog group over the banks, expanding CHIPs, providing billions in the stimulus to keep police, fire fighters and teachers on the payroll, and many more.

To say Obama doesn't help the poor and the middle class is just plain off the mark....

Hey Hummer, did it occur to you that Paul might be talking about the GOTPers overall agenda more to than specifically to the payroll tax cuts??

You do recall that even though in 2010 the GOP ran on 'Jobs, Jobs, Jobs' that they quickly changed their tune to 'Our number one agenda item is to make Obama a one term president'.

And its to that end that McConnell has slipped in a requirement that the president first approve the XL pipeline in order for the payroll tax extension to be allowed. This in spite of the fact that any EPA approval and or the approval of the legislators and other agencies of the affected states is over a year off in the future. Obama has stated that he would veto any measure that contained such language. All that McConnell is trying to do is to back Obama into a corner over the XL pipeline versus the payroll tax cuts.

Norm, SS is not broke as you state, it is well funded until 2032. The economy is a more immediate concern. The payroll tax cut added nearly 500k new jobs to the economy. It also provided a sort of stimulus in the form of more take home pay for workers, averaging $1k per tax payer. That is money that wouldn't have been spent in absence of the tax cut.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70148.html

You should be more concerned about the damage of the unpaid for Bush Tax cuts provided to the wealthy. That lost revenue far out shadows the cost of the payroll tax cuts.

hummingbird, Yes, we know that you fool. There are 168,000,000 people who would benefit. Of course the non-working millionaires and billionaires sitting in their mansions wouldn't benefit if they don't get a pay check.

Paul-- the reason the Bush tax cuts were extended was to save the unemployment benefits of the average guy who remained without a job! That and the FICA tax cut were aimed at average working Americans! The DEMs are also pushing again for the elimination of the Bush tax cuts on the rich and replece them with tax cuts for the middle class. GOP opposed all of this. They really dont care about Joe America. Watch what they DO---- NOT what they say!! We dont need a 3rd party--unless it is to finally get rid of this version of the GOP which has nearly destroyed this country on 2 occasions!

Ray:

Surely you jest. Let's pretend for a moment that your contention SS is funded through 2032, a mere 20 years away, what happens then? The $1,000 to buy votes for the upcoming election does more damage than leaving the money in the program for future payouts. Eventually the bill comes due. Think Greece.

Opa!

Get ready for it.

Ron in Col

My question is why does the pipe line have to go to texas? They should split that pipe into 2 types starting in the middle states and then have 2 processing area's. look at the job's that would creat. But, with all the oil and gas coming out of Pa and surrounding states, where will it be piped to? Texas also?

come on people, tell us your thought's.

Ray in Jax if Obama has championed the middle class why are over 14 million people out of work the only? The only middle class Obama has championed is the gov workers and union workers. As far as the poor class class he made over 14 million more poor people by not doing the thing that need to be done to help create jobs IE EPA full speed ahead spending money on non shovel ready jobs over 800 billion. But a pipeline that will help middle class 20,000 jobs he has that project tied up by the EPA. Your new watchdog group over the banks what did that do for the middle class jack there interest up so high they stopped spend. Ray you a fool.

@Ray

The Homes Affordable Program also known as HAMP program is plagued by numerous problems. HAMP is not a law. It is a contractual deal that the U.S. Treasury Department has made with mortgage servicers and their investors to voluntary modify a mortgage for a homeowner. The difficulty here is that HAMP is a contract and not a law – there is no regulatory control. A major problem is how long it takes for the mortgage servicer to set up the HAMP trial period. HAMP does not stop foreclosure. For those who apply for HAMP relief, mortgage arrears build up. That means that for those who are not approved ( and these homeowners constitute the vast majority of people who apply), they will owe substantial amounts upon receiving their denials. The mortgage payments are contractual obligations. Thus, if the homeowner pays a reduced monthly mortgage payment during the trial period, and the homeowner is not approved, then the homeowner will owe the original contractual amount — which is substantially more than the amount they paid during the trial period. In addition, the homeowner’s credit is destroyed. The homeowner’s FICO score is destroyed. The homeowner is much worse off now than before! In essence, the mortgage lender is saying, “Sorry you don’t qualify after you applied to us — and PS – now you owe us all of the missed payments. We are going to foreclose on your home.” It has caused more people to file bankruptcy because of the slow precess that is only supposed to take 3 months. IF you lucky to get into HAMP it's get's worse. The loan is now 40 years and after 5 years goes back to the original contract. More than half the MODS have failed. Not only this but it's a 40 year loan. If you have 10 years vested you now enter into a 40 year loan that only stands for 5 years. THEN.....HAMP dictates that the modified interest rate remain in place for 5 years. After that period of time, the interest rate will increase by 1% per year (or a lesser amount as may be needed) until it reaches the IRC. IMO, this plan is helping no one.

@ Ray

Extended Unemployment Benefits: Evidence from the new jersey Extended Benefit program states -
Overall, we find that the NJEB program raised the fraction of UI claimants who exhausted their regular benefits by 1-3 percentage points. More importantly, however, we find that the short-term nature of the benefit extension substantially moderated its effect. For individuals who were receiving UI when the benefit extension was passed, we estimate that the rate of leaving UI fell by about 15 percent. Simulations suggest that if the program had run long enough to affect UI claimants from the first day of their spell, the fraction of recipients exhausting regular benefits would have risen by 7 percentage points. Also Europe and France have found the same evidence from long term unemployment benefits.

This action of extending benefits is NOT helping anyone. It is hurting us more than you know. There a couple great books online you can read on the analysis - "Evidence of New jersey Extended Benefits Plan"

and an Oxford University publication called"Unemployment, Macroeconomic Performance and the Labour Market"

I suggest you read them to understand the predicament Obama is really putting us in.

@ Ray

Reform Bill:

FORTUNE -- Financial regulators, white-collar criminologists, and economists all agree that perverse incentive structures cause crises and they agree that the finance industry's incentive structures have long been perverse.

The Obama administration asserts that the financial reform bill the President will sign into law this week will prevent future crises. In fact, it will fail to do so because it does not effectively address those perverse incentives. Indeed, it increases the likelihood of the accounting scams that are the very reason why perverse incentives pay.

Over time, crises have gotten more severe because many reform policies have the unintended consequence of encouraging these types of incentive structures. Executive and professional compensation create the motives, while deregulation, desupervison, and regulatory "black holes" create the opportunity.

Accounting is the CEO's "weapon of choice" that transforms the perverse incentive into what economists, regulators, and criminologists agree is a "sure thing" in crises (means). That's the classic recipe for disaster: motive, means, and opportunity.

Why would anyone believe anything this man says? I just read an HP post where he claimed he was ready to "call the President's bluff". What a poor excuse for a civil servant this man and his republican friends are. Shame on them and on us for allowing these clowns to sacrifice us in order to pursue their own political agenda. Send them packing in 2012.

Paul-498099

"Republicans help the rich, Obama helps the non-working poor, but nobody cares to help the average working man. Time for a 3rd party."

Oh, like Pelosi, Kerry, Gates, Soros?

Time for you to learn history. Johnson started the wasting of SSI to pay for the VN War. look it up.

SSI has since become a slush fund. It is all IOU's because of Johnson. Reducing the payroll tax will kill it. SSI has been the highest tax to the middle class in history, yet the same middle class that really benefiou go ahead and vote for him agained from it are now wanting it lowered so they won't have to pay for the one real benefit government ever offered.

I am living on a shoes string. Have saved to save myself and family. haven't worked for 31 months. I will survive. How about you who constantly berate those who have earned. I would bet most of you never earned. Sure, some of you did. Most who voted for Obama. like him, never earned anything. Like him, you wanted someone else to support you because you are too lazy to do for yourself.

You go ahead and vote for him again to save your welfare checks. And when they run out, vote for him again. The dumbest people in America always vote for someone who doesn't care about them. Why? Because they don't even care about themselves, as long as someone else is paying the bill.

You will be the and of America.

This tax cut is a stupid idea.you don't cut funds to social security when they are so desperatly needed.If they are going to cut taxes they need to cut real taxes such as income taxes.The payroll taxcut is a farce.The government thinks that the people are stupid and that they can get away with anything.

McConnell and Bipartisan ... never happen ... McConnell needs to be thrown out of office for his obstructionist form of politics .. McConnell is a traiter to his country for his just say no to anything that will help our country

Ted Patrick ... isnt the payroll tax income tax

If SS was originally created because elderly were left without dignity and dying poor after the Great Depression, why isn't it considered like insurance where you get it only if you need it to prevent the same situation from happening?

We pay car insurance. We pay home insurance. We pay life insurance but for some of us, we don't tap into it because nothing happens to us to force us to use it.

Why isn't SS considered the same way?

I don't expect it to be there when I retire so why not have means testing or some other way for someone to prove they need it?

As for these tax cuts, I have no problem raising capital gains taxes from 15% to 25%. Wouldn't that be a step in the right direction for a more fair tax system?

The only bipartisan ship that wiil work is if the Dem and Obama agree on the XL pipeline and the GOP agrees on taxing the rich to help pay for the payroll tax cuts. Period.

Ray,

lindsy Graham stated the same figures you did, but they are wrong

Wash. Post: Based On TransCanada's Numbers, "The Number Of People Employed" Would Actually Be 6,500. A November 5 article in The Washington Post reported that TransCanada CEO Russ Girling "said Friday that the 13,000 figure was actually not a true job number, but actually accounted for 'one person, one year.'" The Post added that "if the construction jobs lasted two years, the number of people employed in each of the two years would be 6,500."

just sayn'

also, payroll taxes NEED to be collected in other tax forms, so that there would be LESS cost for employers to hire.........

Why can't these idiots pass the tax cut extension without tying something else to it.

Sounds alot like last year, we'll extend the tax cut if we get our government subsidized oil pipeline.

Boehner, McConnell, Cantor, these weasels need to go.

Agree with Norm - cutting the SS tax is a fraud! We are cutting money that funds SS payments! Does this really make sense considering the state of SS today? This is just a ploy for Obama to gain votes in 2012 - nothing more, nothing less.

To..Bob 337..""

Who was that repub candidate that say's if you don't have a job it's your own fault...

Mearly #1.9.

1. Getting 1 line though the red tape is bad enough, but two?

2. The refineries with the capacity and abililty to expand are in Texas

3. Double the amount of work required, double the land aquisition, double the maintenance, double the materials, double the construction time, . . . .

I think 1 is quite enough.

Brenda - the banks are following the program as written by the fed. Under those circumstances, many Americans earned the chance to get new terms.

The trouble is that they needed to not only make the trial payments but needed to either reduce their debt or increase their income in the meantime. That is difficult to do when jobs are scarce. As a result, 90% of those put on trial payments failed to get approval for the modification.

Worse yet upon the failure, they had to pay the difference of their original payment less what they paid within days or be in default on their mortgage. The advice We got was to put the difference of the original loan and the modified amount in savings, so that if (the reality was when) the modification did not go through you had the money to pay to be current.

Think about this - if you are struggling to make your mortgage payment, or behind in your payment, Would you really have the money to put back to make such a lump sum payment in 3 - 6 months when they finally decide you cannot be modified?

The near-final word. of the 10% of mortagages actually given the modification - within 1 year HALF failed. Those government guidelines for mortgages are a prescription for failure. Banks know that, but to be in the federal system had to make those loans under duress of being barred from participating in the fed system and unlimited investigation from any federal agency.

And Brenda when you are turned down for modification, If you ask the banks, they will tell you they are only doing what the federal guidelines say to do.

So what the banks did was make the loans, and unload those probable failures ASAP.

Amunaka -

Who was that repub candidate that say's if you don't have a job it's your own fault...

probably none have said this, but you may be able to find a conservative commentator or two who has said this and you will find lots of qualified debt counsellors that will say that - once they know your circumstances.

I believe it was Herman Cain.

GOP T-Retards stop supporting the tax aid going to the Rich our you're "Finished" as a party !!!!!!!!!!

Tiggle: Ross Perot purposed that idea many years ago. The millionaires of today, want their SS, their tax break , their loop hole and cheap illegal labor.

It is my understanding that a Republican Governor of one of the states involved is dead against the pipeline. Apparently McConnell wants to go against one of his own just for political purposes.

Actually, the report does contain information about the proposed Trans-Canadian pipeline....

The House of Representatives is set to approve a Republican plan as early as Tuesday to extend the tax cut, tying it to a bid to accelerate approval of TransCanada Corp's Keystone XL pipeline project between the United States and Canada.

Graham predicted that the proposed surtax on millionaires will not be part of the final deal, and that the Keystone pipeline project probably won't be included in it, either.

Ed, it was the GOP governor of Nebraska that asked for the study to protect those special wetlands in his state. He isnt against the pipeline, but he DOES want it rerouted! So it's being studied! So let McConnell do his worst! He'll only be exposed for the threacherous bastard that he is. It seems like the GOP is always holding good guy hostage to their evil plans!

Am I the only one who thinks that, given all we've seen from the Senior Senator from Kentucky, that a great deal of his opposition to Pres. Obama is racial?? I mean, Obama wasnt even sworn in when this bozo comes up with this TOTAL OPPOSITION" plan to made Obama a 1 term president! McConnell didnt have any policies to oppose yet! The country was in crisis, begging for unity in the face of the worst recession since the depression. Instead: TOTAL OBSTRUCTION!!

Things that make you go HHHHMMMMMM.......

The governor of Nebraska, a republican, asked that the pipeline be delayed until they could change the route. The proposed route goes over an aquafir that if polluted from a spill, would destroy millions of acres of prime Nebraska farm land. I repeat, a governor of a state, a republican, a state that stands to get a large number of jobs from the pipeline has the foresight to see beyond a job of today for a thousands of jobs in to the future. Who is the short sighted one here?

This is a disgusting political farce played by a cynical group of congressional republicans playing for sound bites. And guess what, the un-informed right is so blinded by their hatred for Obama they are falling for it.

Surely there are several Indian nation's in the path that would fight it. But we have kept them poor so perhaps if it goes they can collect big..

Norm - BUY VOTES FOR THE COMING ELECTION? If only it was that easy - so what you are saying that the working class are stupid and can be bought - not that it would stimulate the economy or put an extra goody in a child's sock because my friend that is what it means - not what Romney called a band aid - his band aid isn't even $10,000 - wouldn't it be wonderful if we could give all of these hard working people $10,000, boy would that stimulate the economy, they might even be able to take the family out for dinner once in a while, now that's what I call buying a vote

Brenda: Your assertion that what I am saying is that the president and his democratic minions (and lots of republicans, as well) are trying to buy votes is correct. Isn't that what our political whores continually and consistently do with our money? How do you think we got to a 16,000 page (or is it 72,000 page?) federal tax code? Those pages were bought one page at a time.

Look, your other assertion that lots of families can use the money is correct, but we're already broke and mortgaging more of the future, especially Social Security, isn't the answer. BTW, I am not collecting SS, still quite a few years away from it, but don't you find it at least a bit amusing that the party that screams the loudest about "protecting" SS is the one starving it from it's funds? Not a little bit? C'mon now, be honest.

The bill will come due. Get ready. Opa!

I urge everyone to write the President and tell him to veto any republican plan that calls for 1) Keystone pipeline approval and 2) making the Bush Tax cuts permanent. Enough of their nonsense. Just go to Whitehouse.gov and hit the contact buttom. As I tell my first graders, easy, peesee.

irene

So I assume you want your taxes raised by about 5% in 2013. I also assume that you are against 20,000 or more JOBS on the Pipeline. That Pipeline was STUDIED for 3 years by the Interior Dept. and the State Dept. It was APPROVED in Aug. this year. I assume that you also know that there are 1000's of miles of NLG and Oil pipelines EXISTING in the Ogallala Aquifer right now. So WHY IS THIS PIPELINE SO DIFFERENT???

Tom in NH-294381 you're not alone in your observation. Lets just hope America can get beyond the rhetoric and open their eyes.

IF NOT OBAMA in 2012 WHO?

irene,

Good idea. But let's get to the root of the problem and also contact Republican congressman (Boehner, McConnell and so on) and suggest they grow up, act like adults, learn to compromise and send a bill to Obama that they know he will sign, and stop wasting everyone's valuable time. They can also extend unemployment benefits as they've done nothing about creating jobs in the last year, contrary to what they promised.

I'm waiting for the Republicans to explain why, after signing Norquist's pledge, they're so eager to raise taxes on the middle class by voting down the tax cut extension. I guess the understanding is the pledge applies only to the wealthy.

I can tell from the way you write why you are not in the top 2% of earners! You have to know when to use '. It is not used when denoting the plural form. I noted it misused 5 times in your post.

Annual Costs/Savings of Bills Sponsored or

Cosponsored by Typical Congressman (in billions)

Increases
Decreases
Net Agenda

House Democrats
$550
$11
$539

Senate Democrats
$199
$3
$196

House Republicans
$36
$114
-$78

Senate Republicans
$76
$51
$25

The table above quantifies the costs and savings of these bills by political party. This data is provided by the National Taxpayers Union Foundation and represents the annual net fiscal effects of these bills averaged over periods of up to five years (omitting inflation).

Numbers don't lie.

During the 111th Congress (2009-2010), U.S. Representatives and Senators introduced 176 bills that would have reduced spending and 2,480 bills that would have raised spending.

Interesting how opinions have changed:

A poll conducted by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal in February 2011 found that:

• 80% of Americans are concerned "a great deal" or "quite a bit" about federal budget deficits and the national debt.

• if the deficit cannot be eliminated by cutting wasteful spending, 35% of Americans prefer to cut important programs while 33% prefer to raise taxes.

• 22% think cuts in Social Security spending will be needed to "significantly reduce the federal budget deficit," 49% do not, and 29% have no opinion or are not sure.

• 18% think cuts in Medicare spending will be needed to "significantly reduce the federal budget deficit," 54% do not, and 28% have no opinion or are not sure.

Other than interest on the national debt, all of the long-term growth in federal spending (as a percent of GDP) under the CBO's "current policy" and "current law" scenarios stems from Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and "to a lesser extent" Obamacare subsidies. Among these items, the health care programs account for 80% of all non-interest spending growth over the next 25 years.

A poll conducted in November 2010 by the Associated Press and CNBC found that:

• 85% of Americans are worried that the national debt "will harm future generations."

• 56% think "the shortfalls will spark a major economic crisis in the coming decade."

• when asked to choose between two options to balance the budget, 59% prefer to cut unspecified government services, while 30% prefer to raise unspecified taxes.

A poll conducted in July 2005 by the Associated Press and Ipsos found that:

• 70% of Americans were worried about the size of the federal deficit.

• 35% were willing to cut government spending.

• 18% were willing to raise taxes.

• 1% were willing to cut government spending and raise taxes.

Who gives a fly f about increases when people in need should get help instead of pouring $4,000,000,000,000 down the drain over 10 + years no on illegal wars that were based on lies about WMD? Those numbers don't lie either. Republicans want America in a constant state of war. Eisenhower warned about the Military Industrial complex!

Brenda, show some smarts of your own! If the deficit can't be lowered by cuts in spending then some new revenue should also be raised. You learn that in Econ. #101.

Brenda I would agree with some of your assertions but those based on polls are worthless. You cannot or should not attempt to gauge what America thinks at any time with a poll, you can only do that at the ballot box. Secondly "...the sky is falling...", "...America is broke", are all HUGE lies perpetrated by TeaPubs as a another ploy from their bag of tricks to distract America from what it really needs to do for its future, which is to put 20 million people to work. If the latter is accomplished or if we even attempt as a nation to accept and respond to that challenge all this crap about the debt and deficit will disappear.

You see we are not like Greece. Greece doesn't produce anything, nor do they innovate. While America with all of its problems still has a vibrant innovative community cranking out concepts that produce jobs, e.g., Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, T-Mobile.... a resurging manufacturing community bolstered by both the auto and airline industries. TeaPubs would have you swallow the BIG LIE hook, line, and sinker that if we choose to invest in America we will somehow end up like Greece.

IF NOT OBAMA in 2012 who?

If you're going to post polls Brenda, at least try to make them somewhat current.

The recent polls I've seen show over 70% are in favor of raising taxes on the rich.

Even over 50% of Republicans polled are in favor of that, but the Republican's don't care about their constituents, the people who line their pockets are the people they cater to, and that includes to a lesser degree Democrats.

But hey didn't Dick Cheney say deficits don't matter.

clwyd - you cannot give, if you do not have. You should never give if you have to borrow to give it. It's like co-signing for a loan.

John Bayner Why would not 98% want to raise taxes on the top 2% ie someone else!!?? You are all for shared sacrifice as long as someone else is doing the sacrificing.

Dear marshal; please don't confess the republican right-wing with global warming, and you hummbird ; do not explain to the right-wing how the bush tax cuts where not paid for at all ! it just causes them to mumble and get very, very defensive and spit out more lies !!!

Here let me mumble for you!

2000 revenue $1,544 Bln - plus 161 Bln over 1999 (welfare rolls were cleared)

2001 Revenue (Before Tax cut) $1,483 - minus 61 Bln

2002 Revenue (Tax Cut begins) $1,337 Bln - minus $145 Billion

2003 Revenue $1,258 Bln - minus $79 Bln

2004 Revenue $1,345 Bln - Plus $86 Bln

2005 Revenue $1,576 Bln - Plus $230 Bln

2006 Revenue $1,798 Bln - Plus $222 Bln

2007 Revenue $1,932 Bln - Plus $134 Bln

Put another way,

The cuts are known to cause about $135 Billion per year in reduced Revenue. However, We went from an economy that was shedding jobs from 2000 - 2002 to and economy that created 3,000,000 new jobs from 2003 - 2006 IF they are only average paying jobs, the tax revenue added (including FICA,Medicare medicaid)

Increase in revenue becomes 37 Billion per year, a decrease of up to $60 bln less in payments out in unemployment for a total $97 Billion per year just on the individual. This does not include the resulting Billions per year - which by the revenue increases shown for 2005 & 2006 illustrate the revenue brought in by lower taxes was phenominal.

And yes, in 2008 things dropped like a rock. That's what happens when for 9 years the government force banks to make bad loans that they turn an sell to unsuspecting investors. This get more loyal voters (and look like they acutally care for poor people) policy artifically inflated the value of homes & when the defaults became too large the values of home collapsed collapsing the value of investments by the unsuspective buyers and leaving the banks unable to lend by minimal federal standards.

I call MItch McChinless Howdy Doody! His mouth looks like Howdy's puppet mouth! He's a puppet of the rich, big oil, wall street and big banks! All feathering their nests on the backs of the middle class!

Minnesotan, From your neighbor in Wisconsin,thanks for telling me I'm not the only one to recognize an idiot when I see one! I'm from southern Wisconsin, but my son is up next to you. Hudson! Oh, could you take Michelle the nut case, I really mean it, she is crazy and put her in an institution for help? She's giving your state a very bad name!

Who Mr Peabody giving us the creeps? Thats an understatement, and in fact that whole wing of radical TeaPubs, should be a lesson to all of America in what not to do come election day.

That statement says much about you.

Guess the truth did not set him free James, if Obama and Reid give him the creeps. What is it to these people who wholesale reject that which is in their best interests I'll never know but I am glad the water in my state isn't polluted yet.

Yes, can you imagine if they went away... the allegedly unemployed people working under the table would have to cash their last check and... oh my god... get a job and pay taxes! OMG!

Well goodness. That is simple isn't it? Are You hiring? It may be time to revue our love affair with small businesses who pay nonliving wages and count on the community and the state and federal government to subsidize thier employees income with local, state, and federal tax money while they live in the burbs calling themselves job creators. If a business cannot pay a living wage i do in fact WANT them to fail and if not i want thier income tax to reflect the burden they place on society.

Sam: Yes, I am hiring. Added two people to my payroll (doubled from 2 to 4 people) and looking to add another two in 2012. And the lowest wage is $35/hr.

True job security is found in self-employment, be it discovering a cure for cancer or opening up a hot dog stand.

By the way, your comment about businesses "being a burden to society" is pretty interesting. Isn't it the other way around, that those like yourself who don't contribute to the general welfare are the burdens to society. Try making it without the productive class. Eat the seed corn and you all starve, while the achievers always find a way.

Enjoy your free government cheese while it lasts, hahahaha, while producers eat steak.

Norm,

Right! We need more small business mice running around gathering the few crumbs left by the multinationals. Problem is, there aren't that many crumbs available.

Hope your business thrives whene there aren't enough people who can afford to use it.

Severed Head in a Jar: First, great name. Second, my work attracts successful companies so I don't see it being a problem. Thanks though for your concern.

Partisan politics is not a "one party" thing and both parties get in their share.

deb - actually McCain said staff and blood relatives - I think with the last poll they lost the blood relatives

ED, I don't know where you got your figures , but if they were to have wealthly pay the same proportion of income tax as lower brackets, they would get a hell of a tax cut.

Don:

Apparently you did not get the thrust of my comment. I was not talking about rates I was talking about income. Other words if you make 70 % of all income in one year and I make 30% of all the income, why should I have to pay more than 30% of the revenue in taxes.

I say the 70% should pay 70% of the revenuw in taxes. The wealty do not pay that now. Case in point I paid a hell of a higher percentage in income tax when I was a working stiff then I do now as a business owner. The problem with this today is that I get to invest and deduct expenses and create equity whereas the working stiff does not at the expense of the common tax payer.

ed

The TOP 25% income earners pay 87% now how much more do you want??

http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

The solution to the entire Social Security problem is simple. Raise the cap on income subject to the payroll tax.

Slodon in answer to your question we only want to go back to the tax rates under Bill Clinton.

Don the point Ed was making is the US has a regressive tax code, e.g., the more you make the fewer taxes you pay. If the rates were flat the wealthiest 1-2% would pay more taxes (as a percentage of income) as compared to what they are paying today.

No corporation pays anywhere near 35% in taxes in fact there are so many loopholes in the tax law that some actually get more money back than they paid into the system.

Dave - that will not solve the problem. If the cap is limited, then those folks just get rated higher in their SS payments.

a

Kent, also democrats should not focus everything on the tax the rich thing. I don't care if it passes or not, but in the grand scheme of things will provide squat anyway and is blown so far out of proportion its not funny. THat seems to be all the president ever talks about.

Kent - the big problem with the pipeline is running it through Nebraska - they have an aqua structure it might contaminate - oh hell with all the fracking going on who needs drinkable water any way

Please note it is the Republican controlled state government in Nebraska that is calling for further study to avoid possible contamination of the aquafir.Contamination of thier drinking and irrigation source would be an economic disaster but leave it to the GOP to use their opposition of the pipeline as a talking point against the Dems. No shame, just win the game.

Repairing roads and bridges would be a good start at repairing our economy it work to bring us out of the "Great Depression" of the 30's. It would also make more sense to build a couple of new refineries in one or two of the northern states they want to run the pipeline through creating many permanent jobs and even perhaps with greener technology than that of the old ones in Texas. And perhaps using some local companies in those states rather than Halliburton or any of their cohorts (they made enough off the war in Iraq). And where as they would bring along a growing of many small business'( cafes, stores,ect...) The only real problem with new refineries is the price of oil and gasoline would go down, making less profits for those big oil companies in Texas.

ED, we realize many folks cannot afford to pay income tax and there are deductions. I think the issue is the wealthy do pay way more than most people realize. Many pay close to 50% income tax as a percentage of gross pay whereas most middle class probably pay less the 20% of gross.

Your so right Ed............a good part of that 47% are people on Social Security, and many of them make so little after paying for Medicare their yearly social security income falls below the amount they would have to make in order to pay taxes! The Republicans do not break out what the 47% actually entails. Remember a good part of the middle class is now considered the NONWORKING POOR!

No one's paying 50% income tax unless you want to add in state and local taxes and other numbers - which would also push most middle class people into the 35-40% range. You're comparing apples and oranges.

In any case, the beef I have is not with rich people who pay close to 50%, it's with the really rich people, and the corporations, which pay next to nothing. Recent studies have found that about 1/4 of people making over a million a year pay a smaller percentage than the average middle class family. That has to change.

Ernie - my brother-in-law falls into the millionire category and under Bush's tax cuts he saw $70,000 per year more in his pocket and yes he did create a job - enabled Tiffany to maintain their staff - wife got a big hunk of a diamond

Barbara: It's his money, he can spend it any way he wants.

Definition of "tainted money": Money that 'taint yours! Keep your government hands off it. If he is a millionaire he's paying plenty. How about getting the 51% of non-federal income tax payers to contribute a couple of bucks instead?

They do contribute a couple of bucks. When they fill thier tank, buy thier clothing,pay thier rent, buy a used car, pay to have that car repaired,pay utilities, etc. This paper tiger has roamed the urban jungle long enough. Putting a match to its tail with cold hard truths.

Not to mention the possibility that there are a fair number of multimillionaires who fall into that 47% because they have no taxable income. they live comfortably on money from capital gains, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income.

Severed: The AMT ensures they pay something. And don't forget, the money they get as unearned income was already taxed at the federal level once already.

Ed, yes many on SS, not SSI, do pay some income tax be it low, they do pay. I pay about 10% with my 1099 every year, which most the time is less than the $3000 mandatory income to pay taxes. But what a lot of people do not realize is that we paid, as did our employers when we earned that money, so in a way we actually pay twice on some portion. I pay mine due to teaching my children that if we all pay alittle we will all benefit in the long run and we help to keep our Great Nation, a Great Nation.

No joke! As long as the republican'ts int he party of No have added the pipeline to it it will be vetoed. No compromise from the right, just add on to help the rich, businesses and big oil! How about some additional revenue since the rich, who are suppose to pay 37% in taxes and average only 17.4% when most of us pay 27%! Those republican tax loopholes for the rich sure pay them well!

Seems Obama is threatening to veto it just because there arent tax increases for the wealthy.

Sounds good to me! since I pointed out how low their tax rates are due to loopholes. When I was in high school, long ago, my soc. studies teacher said, "5% of Americans own 12% of the wealth." Well, now the teacher would have to say that that same 5% own 40% of the wealth. See something wrong here!

Excuse me , but you deserve this! F O O L!

dd republican't, You need to report to the nearest ER. You have received an overdose of FOX Poisoning. It is lethal!

If you voted for Obama....Youre a fool

Your apology is here! I'm sorry and I must have misunderstood, but I get to into the attacks made by the neo-Nazi republicans that I get carried away. See, I did it again! But I'am sorry if I insulted you by misunderstanding!

DD republican. I'm a fool and very proud of it then! Who of the brain farts, crazy lady, religious cult members, frugal millionaire or seceding Texan do you support? They are all loony tunes! Now you would have to be a fool to say anyone of them!

I support them all. Any one of them will be vastly better than the socialist Marxist anti American Muslim we have in the White House now.

You don't know what the H you are talking about? Have you read the Communist Manifesto or Karl Marx book on Marxism? Obama is teddy bear compared to what you are saying. I wish he would move more to the left and line up all the republicans against a wall and??? I'm also sharpening my guillotine! You see I was a Barry Gold water Republican and he would roll over in his grave to see the mess the republican party is in and the fools they are running. Barry, would have been a moderate by their standards!

Obamas anti-American speech the other day:

Obama said that while a limited government that preserves free markets speaks to our rugged individualism as Americans, such a system doesn't work and has never worked. The president of the United States said that the United States of America, as founded, "has never worked."

Class warfare is the fundamental principle of Marxism. Class warfare is how Marx explained economics and explained history. In fact, class warfare is how Marx explained everything. Now, oddly enough it's how Obama explains everything now.

If you just substitute the word "proletariat" for every time he said "worker" or "middle class" in his speech, if you subject "bourgeois" or "capitalists" for the rich, this same speech could have been given by Lenin a hundred years ago.

Or are you referring to Louis the IIV of France. We need to sharpen our Guillotines sand get ready for the revolution against all the greedy thug republicans and their support of the rich millionaires an billionaires paying only 17.4% in average taxes compared to my 27%.

doesn't make any difference what any of us think.

If the poor continue to get poorer, and the rich continue to get richer, there will be revolt and chaos..

Class warfare is the fundamental principle of Marxism.

That's like saying gravity is a fundamental principle of feudalism. You can like it, you can hate it, but it exists.

Or are you saying that the peasants wanting money from the elite is bad, and is "class warfare," but the elite wanting money from the peasants is good and is the fundamental principle behind capitalism?

If I were to run for political office I would make a law that after, say 70-72, and you never made more than $100k a year, no more income taxes for you to pay.

@ Larry...Perhaps it's the agenda of nihilism- even towards programs formerly put forth by Republicans- that has made the efforts of the right to oust Obama so remarkable over his first term.

First off, watch for an approval of middle class tax cuts tied firmly to the extensions of the tax cuts for the highest brackets- what McConnel is actually implying is he'll get his way- because that's the new definition of "Compromise" for the right.

The fact that they were willing to destroy the prospects for any economic recovery in order to insure his failure is nothing short of an act of terrorism against the middle class- made worse by the fact that he's quite likely, after the amazing antics of the TEA Party, to win a second term regardless.

This sets the stage for another round of....nothing. No progress of any kind. Unless, of course, the right loses as many house seats as they won during the last elections- or wins massively in the Senate.

Interesting times indeed....

Obama's not perfect, but WOW can he lead the repub's around by their noses! The best the Party of Nooo can do, is filibuster and block bills & nominees that Obama wants.

Now I just wish both sides would start working together, for the people.