People, there is a choice who is both rational and thoughtful. This man wants to get out of the wars. He wants to bring our soldiers home. He wants to actually do something about the debt crisis. This man predicted the trouble we are in now back in 2002. You may not have heard of him because the main stream media doesn't want you to know about him. This man is also a US Veteran, a doctor and has been married to the same woman for about 57 years. I would mention his name but I think you know who I'm talking about. Besides, if I metion his name this comment gets "collapsed"... If you get get lucky you might be able to see him in the debate. I hear he has been exiled to "Siberia" for this one.

Jon Huntsman 2012. Unfortunately he accepts climate change, same sex civil unions, engaging China and worst of all, worked for Obama.

Once again it will be the lessor of two evils in the general election. Right now it's the lessor of 6-6-6 evils ;-)

Jake: yeah, huntsman has relevant experience, good results, and moderate views on social issues that could bridge the gap for the "middle 70%" of americans who aren't mindless political hacks (on both sides).. Obviously completely unqualified to be president.

This is not going to be a debate. This is going to be a marathon to see who says more BS about the President, and blame him for EVERYTHING. Since these morons do not have anything else to bring to the table, they are just going to talk trash.

Guess who will be the only people taking notes ... "Saturday Night live"... do to the wealth of free material from these GOP get-togethers ... it's my understanding they have let a few writers go ...

Sure it will be interesting to see exactly who's foreign policy each espouse. Congress - AIPAC - (The Fed IMF World Bank) their dynastic implants and morphs, have fleeced America and thrown her under the bus. There's your start point.

This "debate" should be funny with all of the "cast of characters" trying to out-hawk General Buck Turgidson (Dr. Strangelove).

"Rational and Thoughtful" are no longer conservative attributes. Irrational, illogical, disingenuine, advocates of child and slave labor is more like it.

doug, your post makes no sense. Your criticism of the dems has nothing to do with the quality of the current GOP candidates. There are many people of all politics who are discouraged by the quality of presidential candidates these days (on both parties).

Lets face it...perry, cain, bachmann, palin have serious, serious problems, romney and newt are at least semi-respectiable (perhaps) but still are hardly the kind of candidate you'd look at and say "wow, what a great candidate".

Huntsman and Paul don't count since they have no chance.

Being unimpressed with this crew hardly indicates "partisan hackery"...but your post indicates it on your end. :)

Thankyou Dr. Strangelove for going doolally and leaving me the heritage of a damned nation ally.

Where are the rational thoughtful Conservatives?

Answer There is no such thing

Chuck Hagel (the last Republican) forgot to turn out the lights on his way out and now some creepy weirdo's inhabit that party.

Another republican debate? Gwad! Anyone looking for substance would be better off "milking a hog".

They said it tonight. Vote for us and we will send your kids and grandkids into another expensive, tragic, endless and pointless war. We guarantee it! Be afraid! Be very afraid!

Hey all! Have you heard the latest Johnny Episode?

Holidays are here and the 6^th grade teacher doesn’t know what to do with the class on the last day. It’s about one hour to the final bell.

She comes up with a little game for the 6^th graders. She’ll state a well know comment from a famous person and the first to name the famous person gets to go home early.

Little Johnny is all excited. He knows that he’s the smartest person in the class and he’ll get the first answer and go home early.

So, the teacher says, class tell me who said “Four scores and seven years ago…” before she could finish, little Sarah (not Sarah Palin) shouts out, “Abraham Lincoln.”

Very good Sarah, you can go home…. Have a nice holiday.

Little Johnny is upset. In his mind she should not have been given the point since she didn’t raise her hand. But, the next one is his.

Next, the teacher asks, class tell me who said "I have a dream…" again before she could finish and before Johnny could get a breath, little Nancy shouts out, “Martin Luther King.”

Very good Nancy. You can go home. Have a nice holiday.

Johnny is really upset now. He’s fuming and doesn’t like these girls getting the best of him. The next one is his, no doubt about it.

The teacher turns back to the class and asks, tell me, who said “Ask not what….” Again, before she could finish, and just when Johnny was starting to yell out the name, little Emily shouts out, “John Kennedy.”

Very good Emily, you can go home now. Have a happy holiday.

While the teacher was saying goodbye to Emily, Johnny was ready to burst! He couldn’t stand it anymore. He pounds his fists on the desk and yells out, “I WISH ALL THESE BIT**ES WOULD KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!!”

Startled, the teacher turns to the class and demands, WHO SAID TAHAT??

Quickly, Johnny stands up and says, “Herman Cain! Can I go home now??”

Huntsman seems presidential but he's a little too liberal for the right. Romney is a Dork, Gingrich is a D!ck, Herman the "Blitz"Cain is intolerable but Ron Paul is the truth. I have to say, I am liking Dr. Paul But the rest of that camp is in the dog pound.

As a slightly right leaning fiscal conservative and a social libertarian I so wish I could vote for Huntsman. However, he has no chance of being nominated by the right wing extremists ruling the GOP right now. I guess it's hold my nose and vote Obama. Theocracy is way worse then what we have now.

Sandtrich: Yep. The new republicans nurse their daddies. If you had listened closely you could have heard "Shawn Hannity" between slurps, humming a war drum lullaby in the background.

romanm: You're right about Huntsman. As a republican, he couldn't win the favors of the ugliest $2.00 prostitute in the house, on sale day.

Newt was the best, he was right on the money about immigration, legalize the ones that produce and have been here for sometime and obey the law , with no path to citizenship is the right way to go. Dream Act only if joint the Military , close the border and facilitate more legal immigration, cut any benefit that works as a magnet for more illegals to come.

romanm

Conservative , libertarian and vote for Obama , you are not a conservative nor a libertarian. You are a liberal.

Come on romanm, you aren't a fiscal conservative, because if you were, there is no way in hell you'd vote for the big spending, big taxing marxist in office.

Doug Ponders

A great example of how partisan hackery makes you stupid.

You do understand that it is the Democrats (hardly a conservative bunch) which has complete control in this realm? It is the Big O who sets policy? That ol' lyin' Leon runs the CIA?

The left has lost it.

Doug, I am generally a conservative (only not a rabid one, and not one who thoughtlessly takes his cues from the RNC or a radio talk-show host). So, ironically, it is your post that is the better example of "partisan hackery" and its relation to stupidity.

@Fights, if the choice is between Christian "Sharia Law"..I can't believe I just used that term..and A big spending Marxist, I'll spend the money every time. Next time I hear "God called me to run for office", I'm gonna puke.

Then obviously you ARE NOT A CONSERVATIVE. And excuse me, Christians don't kill people to try to make people obey them. Go smoke some more weed, Godless one,

I agree with several of you: Mr. Huntsman and Dr. Paul are probably the only two candidates I could support with a (mostly) clear conscience. A vote for either of them is a "protest vote," as they have little or no chance.

If you stand with the generals then join the military . ;] We are all always in danger son, from when you get into your car to the road, murders, accidents that is life. To live it in fear is simply the way of the tea bagging republican extremist who wish to be scared of anything and everything INCLUDING the conspiracy theories in there mind. Funny the ONLY thing they seem to not be afraid of is the WHOLE world dying in the rapture. That they can live with . ;]

I sayno indeed. ; ]

Cheers

@oskar, I didn't say that I voted for Obama with enthusiasm. I was set to vote for McCain until he picked Palin for VP. I think that the GOP has been kidnapped by Christian right wing and as we have seen in other parts of the world, religion and politics don't mix so well. BTW, I grew up in a communist country, so I'm no friend of so called Marxists.

@Fights, not a Corservative because I think we should keep religion out of politics? Goverment stay out of our personal lives and our bedrooms? I think Barry Goldwatter would disagree with you.

"GOP has been kidnapped by Christian right wing"

Romanm

I think Democrats are hijacked by liberal extremist , starting with the green Czar Van Jones and also Annita Dum and many other that still are driving this administration. If you are sincere in your words you should look at better who is behind this administration before just hold your nose and vote for Obama.

Confused: Wasn't that an old Bill Clinton Joke? If I remember correctly you just changed the name from Bill Clinton to Herman Cain. The thing about keeping their mouths shut refers to Monica Lewinsky and Paula Jones. Do you think we are that stupid? This just proves that democrats can't remember stuff from the past.

If anybody wants to see where he copied that joke, Look at Jokes4all.net/bill%20clinton:2.html.

Newt's down fall will be that new staff of Tea-Retards, his new boys are dirty and need "Baths" they all stink !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@oskar, we could just trade Koch brothers and Soros insults here all day. I'm not saying that the Dems are not corrupt, they are. All I'm saying that the new Republican party with their revival meetings frightens me more than the mostly inept Dems.

@Cowboys, what exactly in my statement do you object to?

The GOP is heading off of a cliff. Desperate, attacks on Obama from an old GOP trump card, national security.

The party of small government wants to keep defense spending while throwing other Americans under the bus. They have enough money, let them buy their own military ! I do not want my tax dollars going to protect a bunch of hypocritical pols who have sworn to protect and defend Grover.

The tactics of the GOP are almost coming to implosion....tough on illegals ? The GOP dominated Chamber of Commerce wants that cheap labor. Smaller government, but just big enough to protect their major contributors...the party of personal responsibility wants you and I to exercise that, but then want a free pass for corporations and business. I am enjoying watching the GOP clowns and will enjoy even more watching election results come next November...:). Happy Thanksgiving to all and God Bless America !

Speaker Newt Gingrich made an extended and vigorous defense of allowing illegal residents who’d settled in America for many years to stay and not be deported.

I wasn't sure about Gingrich, and now, this statement guarantees I will not vote for him. What about ILLEGAL does he not understand? The biggest problem with this attitude is it will bring swarms of more illegals crossing the boarder with the hope for the same- amnesty. We need to catch these people, fine them severely, and send them back. They can apply to immigrate and get the in line. Send their anchor babies back as well. If they come back illegally, they should get one year in prison, minimum.

Romney calling for more legal immigration -- especially of highly skilled people -- but assailing amnesty for illegal immigrants.

Gee Mitt...you gripe at every opportunity that there aren't enough jobs for the people in this country now and you propose to bring in more to dilute the jobs pool even further?

Yep...I guess in the Romney world, that makes perfect sense.

"We talk about people who have been here 25 years," Romney said to Gingrich. "That is the extreme exception and not the rule."

But somewhat confusingly Romney also said, "I'm not going to start drawing lines here about who gets to stay and who gets to go."

Now THAT sounds more like Romney.

Gingrich makes a point about those 25 year residents who came illegally...but that won't play well in the stauncher conservative circles of his party, a la Bachmann.

Gingrich also supported a provision of a bill supported by President Obama called the Dream Act which would allow illegal immigrants to join the U.S. military and earn their citizenship by serving in uniform.

Ah Newt...support of anything Obama will be considered a treasonous act by the Republicans...you've been around DC long enough to know which way that wind will blow.

You stuck the fork in yourself this time, Newt-ster...implosion and clean up on aisle 6!

Wow, what's your monthly foil hat budget, Cowboys? I actually don't think either party is trying to "destroy" the country. Mostly just paying their friends off.

Gingrich is wrong on this one, illegal is illegal no matter how long you have been here. All this type of policy would do is encourage the illegals to stay out of site long enough to get to the point where they can get amnesty. If you entered this country illegally you broke the law and should get sent home.

Hunstman makes the most sense of any of the GOP candidates but unfortunately I do not see him as having any chance at the nomination.

romanm: Hee,hee. I agree. The only point the "Cocowboy" makes is with his head.

Wow, what's your monthly foil hat budget, Cowboys? I actually don't think either party is trying to "destroy" the country. Mostly just paying their friends off.

@Fiddlin while Roman Burns Down...

Like I said... You NEED to put away the drugs and do some freakin reading...

romanm

I"m not going to say anything about your posts and point of view.

One thing I will say, actually research Ron Paul's positions, on all these issues, Especially the religious ones,

I think you will find out that his positions are not that far from yours....

I know your positions are not that far from mine, and the only candidate I will vote for is Ron Paul.

I voted for Bush because he was a Christian. Two wars, medicare part D

I voted for Ronald Regan, too. I believe in the bible.

I will NOT NOT be voting for any of the right-wing Christians.

All the GOP hopefuls are inept!!!!!!

He [Gingrich] said to Rep. Michele Bachmann, R- Minn., "You find people who have been here 25 years, and have two generations of family, and have been paying taxes, and are in a local church, and as somebody who believes strongly in family, you're going to have a hard time explaining why that particular subset is being broken up and forced to leave."

Heya Newt.......there is NOTHING HARD about exporting them back to their LEGAL country of residence because......IT IS CALLED BREAKING FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW(S), a FEDERAL OFFENSE. That.....is an easy explanation.

You have just lost MY VOTE, and for certain, I will NOT BE VOTING for Mr. Amnesty....Mr. Obama.

@Egilman, I agree with Dr. Paul on a lot of issues. However some of his positions on monetary and foreign policy are too libertarian extreme. We are still a superpower and, as such, have some, if limited, responsibility to the world community. Going back to the gold standard is impractical in this global economy.

romanm

going back to the gold standard would put us as the OWNER of the world economy, only currency (outside a few) that would have real currency.

Ron Paul 2012

END THE DA** FED

@Mark, main problem..gold is still being traded as a commodity. 10% drop or rise in price will not make a huge difference in the market but it can severely deflate or inflate a currency if everybody is not playing by the same rules.

Newt @!$%#ed himself by his position on immigration at tonight's debate and doesn't even know it - yet!

Why do I think he's @!$%#ed? Consider the following facts:

1) Newt currently enjoys front-runner standing in the latest polls among republicans.

2) Newt's their champion even though his moral character polls poorly among the same republicans.

3) Taken together these facts prove that the so-called "family values" crowd is not troubled by Newt's own disgusting family values, and really isn't concerned about family values at all.

(The utter hypocrisy of this crowd will not surprise those who know them)

4) Newt stated a moderate position on immigration, a position that the GOP/TP crowd despised when Gov. Perry stated it.

5) But Newt argued that the current immigration policy "will destroy families that have been here a quarter of a century" and he wants a more "humane" policy because the TP/GOP is "the party of family values."

6) Newt apparently thinks that his clever spin on immigration will save him from the same fate suffered by Gov. Perry at the hands of the anti-immigration TP/GOP.

Ha ha ha! Newt may be intelligent, but he's a dumb @!$%# too! Newt's mistake was taking seriously the TP/GOP's "family values" meme. The truth is - this crowd really doesn't give a @!$%# about 'family values,' that's just a pretext they use to disguise their theocratic agenda, e.g., anti-abortion, anti-gay, etc.

And, that's why I think Newt Gingrich @!$%#ed himself with the republican 'values voters.' But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe the TP/GOP does give a @!$%# when it comes to saving Mexican families? Maybe pigs really can fly? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Our last chance out of this mess is Ron Paul 2012.

I'm a center-left leaning Christian and I totally agree with romanm. Too many conservatives are painting a picture where all Christians are the same. The religious right does not represent my beliefs of what Christian values are. If they got into power and instituted so called "Christian" values into the government they would have strong resistance from people like me who disagree with their definition of "Christian" values.

Keep religion in your life, but keep it out of politics.

HChris

I agree, and it is the exact position that Ron Paul takes....

There is no place for religion in Government.

@romanm

I again agree that all the candidates do not have 100% the perfect position, but the overriding factor in my opinion is the Character issue.

At least with Ron Paul we know we are getting an honest Honorable Man.

Not some political hack.

Egilman -

I do admire Ron Paul. I admire anyone in politics with principle. However, I disagree with too many of his ideas to be able to vote for him. Like Ron Paul is to you, Ralph Nader is my principled politician who will never be elected.

Vermont guy? newt is semi respectable? the man has more skeletons than the Smithsonian!

Is it possible that Newt is nervous about being at the top of the pack and is looking for a way to implode a little? It was the support of programs like the Dream Act that heralded Perry's decline. Being tolerant of any population of illegal immigrants is not going to play well with Right Wing Activists. Don't get me wrong I totally support the message he delivered about using discretion in deciding who to deport, but id just does not sound like a winning message for this Primary Season.

The rational, thoughtful ocnservatives are all living with Santa Claus.

Yea Oskar, Great Idea, Legalize the foreign workers but don't allow them to become citizens? Sounds like you just left the latest Chamber Of Commerce Meeting. Cheap labor and the minute they want a raise send em back to Mexico. Sound about right... Freaking Clown...

Anyone who supports Newt Gingrich is not a fan of freedom. He stood there and told you he supports the Patriot Act & he would also like to make it stronger. Another neocon that would ignore the constitution. Open your eyes people!

Ron Paul, the Champion of the Constitution and the Thomas Jefferson of our day, is a true American patriot and statesman. I am sick of oath-betraying, constitution abrogating, warmongering establishment neoconservatives posing as Republicans. Wake up America! Ron Paul for President in 2012.

I watched parts of the debate last night. It was fun to watch Newt talk about being the party of "family values" knowing that he asked his previous wife for a divorce at the hospital right before she was wheeled in to get surgery for cancer. It was fun to watch Perry say how he has experience with the border and how to close it when his policy has always been "let 'em in" and give them medical care and schooling. It's interesting to watch Romney defend the DOD and almost gleefully tick off all the countries he'd be able to play star wars with. Apparently he wants to bully them as he has law enforcement here and belligerently ask them " Don't you know who I am?" right before he pushes the hot red button. Was it just me or was Cain restrained last night? When is someone in government going to look at his crooked scam with his book sales? It takes Santorum too long to try to say anything for me to even try to listen to him. And Bauchman bit the dust a long time ago.

But what was the most fun for me as a liberal was to watch Romney spit and sputter when Ron Paul threw some truth in his face about the funding of the DOD. It was great to see Huntsman say "people are sick of war and want the U.S. stabilized." Those two need to join forces and run as a packaged deal. As a liberal I may even look at them to cast my next vote in a responsible way.

Hey nice, I actually agree with him on this one. After all the obtuse "black and white" mindless rhetoric against illegals, a sane - rational approach somehow breaks through among the G0P candidates:

"enforce the law humanely"

Just when their constituents had me convinced that they were all horrible law-breaking criminals that should be dumped into the ocean....

Romney said "I stand with the generals" on the need to maintain troop levels in Afghanistan. That surely is figurative speech as neither he nor his six sons served. Yes, I know Obama was not in the military either. That's one of the reasons why we need some sort of universal military commitment - so people know the true price of these kind of comments.

I work in the construction product manufacturing trade. I know many "illegal" workers and their families, and I have seen them, in mass, on job sites. I've never seen one that isn't working hard trying to make a profit for the contractor who employs them. When I took off my selfish glasses I began to realize that the zenophobic element in this country was cruel, ironic, and shamefully hypocritical.

This is the first time I might come back around to listen a little more to Gingrich. We are humans, are we not?

The polarization of these comments illustrates the severe problems induced by a 2 party system. Perhaps it is time for Democracy in the US. Your election of 2000 showed the world how broken your system is. Your constitution worked for a populaton of up to 12 million connected by horse mounted communication, not now. Any positive changes to the document are unlikely and starting from scratch is impossible. So, like all great empires you have doomed yourselves.

NEWT, you better stop saying rational and thoughtful things or you will surely lose the G0P nomination! STOP NOW before it's too late!

Another day, another debate, but one thing’s certain, every one of the candidates has their own way of addressing and fixing the issues we face. I thought all of them came through reasonably well.

But in the debate’s final half hour, illegal immigration suddenly became the focus as former House Speaker Newt Gingrich made an extended and vigorous defense of allowing illegal residents who’d settled in America for many years to stay and not be deported

I hope you enjoyed your brief stay at the top Newt

For change you can believe in, re-elect Obama.

I have read many 'surprising' posts on this subject. If you all think one party is different from the other you are sadly mistaken. They are both owned by special interests and corporations. They are essentially two sides of the same coin. Very few who represent us in DC are actually trying to look out for us. Most are owned on both sides. They are both taking this country down the road to ruin. In all cases, you are voting for the lessor of two evils, which is quite sad. Of all of the Repubs, and I say this with the nauseating bile coming back up my throat, is Newt Gingrich. As a historian, though not the best one, he has a different perspective on things and might surprise us and the corporate overlords once he gets into office.

I do know this. We can no longer maintain Pax Americana, nor give bread freely to the masses, nor maintain the entertainment to keep them happy while Rome sinks into decay. We must become a manufacturing nation again, if for nothing else but to supply our own needs. We must become almost energy independent. We must stop making some foreign policy decisions based upon protecting one nation in the Middle East. I have ways to fix all our problems, but they are sane and many would not approve. I know this, we must keep radical religion out of our government, for it is slowly creeping into it.

Newt said some illegals should be allowed to stay because I need my lawn cut. Newt would be a perfect candidate for a dumb dumb toy.

Well I just spent considerable time on Ron Paul's website and really, really wish I could vote for the man but I can't. It's so refreshing to see him at the debates debunk all this war b.s. we get from the party of hate candidates but then to go to his site and see him wanting to end all government programs that deal with the poor it's almost like instead of declaring war overseas he's declaring war right here.

We are a society. Societies take care of their people. Do I like paying welfare mama's year after year and giving them housing so their little gangsta boyfriends can live with them for free? NO. But instead of throwing out the entire program, where we end up hurting those who aren't doing that and need that help, we need to revise it. We need to take care of our people before we even think about taking care of the illegals or people overseas.

He wants to sell off federal land. He says not the parks but who knows. Probably wants to sell it to the Koch brothers although why they would buy it when they graze their cattle for free on it is beyond me.

I think Ron Paul is spot on in some areas and I applaud him for his honesty. I do believe though that he needs to understand, maybe feel, the humility of being poor. No one aspires to be poor when they grow up. I was raised with an understanding of the meaning of noblesse oblige or another way to think of it would be wwjd. It's still not the dog eat dog world out there that the hateful Christian Republicans seem to favor. We need to remain a compassionate society.

I love your Christ but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Gandhi

Give it a rest!. We have today a large group of presidential want to be's who stretch the true to fit their individual needs.. We have 500 + in congress that have their own agenda..and it does not follow the wants or needs of the general public. For all of the talk each republican want to be hands out....not one really has a clue...the honesty of each one should be an item that each voter should demand to know...Granted..I think there are things Obama should have done differently..but with a congress wanting to do its own thing..no matter the cost to the general public...he had little chance of getting much done. Would it be any different with one of these want to be's..no....would things get worse..I believe it would...all of these want to be's talk down to those out of jobs...not one has come up with a real idea on creation of any jobs...just the protection of the wealthy and more tax cuts for them. Even the CBO of our government has stated that without higer taxes the debt of this country will continue to grow. In each of the years of high growth of this nation...taxes were much higher than they are today....and each time taxes have been cut...unemployeement was higher.....The failure of congress to do its job is what is wrong with this country..Doing away with meaningful regulations have brought this country to its knees...and the downward movement is continueing. We have lots of departments within washington that are worthless..many are doing the very same things and getting nothing done but cost tax payers money..yet NO politican or presidental want to be has addressed those items. Whats interesting to me is that no debate has had real questions asked nor pushed for real answers to them.

After all these debates, it's become quite clear that there is not a candidate that is worth a vote in either Republican on Democrat Party. We are currently run as Corporatocracy, it has never been more clear than it is now. Bank bailouts, Auto bailouts etc.. It really doesn't seem to matter anymore! Corporations run the government through lobbyists. This Congress is so corrupt and inept that clear and concise thought, as to what is the best for the people of the U.S. is non-existent. As for the presidency, I am at a loss, I find myself looking for a candidate that will hurt us the least, I have given up on a candidate that will help this country be great again. People are voting for the person by the R or D in front of their name, regardless of what they stand for, and they make excuses for each one of their shortcomings, corrupt activities, deliberate inaccuracies, lies, false dedication, disguised loyalties, etc..., and after a while they begin to actually believe the excuses and lies they have been told or have made up, Pavlov would be proud.

We take the beaten up, condemned house and paint it with Republican or Democratic paint and believe it's a new house, when in reality it's a beaten up, condemned house. Just another pig in lipstick!

Sorry for my depressing post, but I just feel this country slipping away and a great nation drowning and no real candidate to throw a lifesaver. I guess I better get some anti-depressants, you know the ones Big Pharma pays the F.D.A. to pass, regardless of the public safety.

Cap'nJim-3363895

Romney said "I stand with the generals" on the need to maintain troop levels in Afghanistan. That surely is figurative speech as neither he nor his six sons served. Yes, I know Obama was not in the military either. That's one of the reasons why we need some sort of universal military commitment - so people know the true price of these kind of comments.

Well, according to your logic, the generals (because they have served/are serving) understand the "true price" of these comments. So, in effect, all Romney said was that he was agreeing/deferring to those who have the understanding that he, as you rightly point out, lacks.

rico-3714896

Well I just spent considerable time on Ron Paul's website and really, really wish I could vote for the man but I can't. It's so refreshing to see him at the debates debunk all this war b.s. we get from the party of hate candidates but then to go to his site and see him wanting to end all government programs that deal with the poor it's almost like instead of declaring war overseas he's declaring war right here.

We are a society. Societies take care of their people. Do I like paying welfare mama's year after year and giving them housing so their little gangsta boyfriends can live with them for free? NO. But instead of throwing out the entire program, where we end up hurting those who aren't doing that and need that help, we need to revise it. We need to take care of our people before we even think about taking care of the illegals or people overseas.

I'm really ambivalent on this issue. In principle, I agree with Dr. Paul. I think social entitlement programs have had a devastating effect on the charitableness of Americans by essentially inserting the government as a "middle-man."

Let me explain: my view is that social entitlement programs remove the giver from the effect of his or her giving. I think there is a huge psychological difference between voluntarily giving to help others and involuntarily having your resources taken from you for the benefit of others. Over time (we're talking three or four generations, probably since the New Deal), folks have stopped viewing themselves, their churches, or their communities as the primary force behind helping others. Rather, it is now the government's role to do that. We have become comfortable abdicating our responsibility to others because, in our collective psyche, the government has taken over that responsibility. This, of course, is all theory and conjecture, but it makes sense to me and is consistent with my view of human nature. Also, if you look at the states in which private charity is highest, there is often a negative correlation with public entitlements (e.g, I think Mississippi is one of the, if not the, highest giving states in terms of private charity, but is among the lowest states in terms of social entitlements). This supports the view that government handouts tend to dampen private charitableness (thought I concede that correlation does not always equal causation).

I get why these programs were started. The Great Depression was a horrific experience that called for drastic measures. I am much less antagonistic toward FDR than I used to be, but I still think that the New Deal, while bringing desperately needed short-term relief, has had a largely unseen and insidious effect on the American psyche and culture.

Now, having said all that, I'll get to why I'm ambivalent: I think it may be too late. I respect Dr. Paul's views on this and agree with him in principle, but as a Burkean conservative, I think social entitlement programs have become too entrenched, too interwoven, into our society and culture to simply discard them. I am fearful of the consequences to the poor. Institutionally, we are no longer equipped to deal with caring for the disadvantaged; at most, our civic and religious institutions serve to supplement the charity that is (involuntarily) given through government entitlement programs. Our culture and collective psyche has changed, and I worry that it cannot simply change back. Government entitlement programs are probably here to stay, as much as that is disheartens me.

But, I agree with you absolutely that the programs need to be reformed. The other dire effect of government entitlement is the sense of entitlement it confers on recipients (and the negative effect on their self-respect). We need to make sure that, if we're going to give handouts, only the truly needy get them and not the dead-beats.

Cap'nJim-3363895

Romney said "I stand with the generals" on the need to maintain troop levels in Afghanistan. That surely is figurative speech as neither he nor his six sons served.

not that Romney will ever have a chance in hell to get my vote I have to correct you on this 2 of his sons are in the Navy.

Jelly Belly (like the name) thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful reply. As hard as I try to wrap my brain around the Republican thinking I just can't do it. It seems circular with no answer in sight.

For instance a very Republican woman told me the other day that she could understand abortion if the health of the child was in question but too many women used it as birth control. I don't believe women use abortion as a form of birth control but told her that for years insurance didn't cover birth control. It would cover viagra but not birth control. That has since changed but what about the huge number of unemployed women now who don't have insurance. AND now the Republican/TP want to quit funding Family Planning so then a woman is absolutely without options. When she saw where I was going with that argument she shut down immediately and said abstinence. Now really how in the world of reality is that working? Circular thinking with no answers.

Pro life advocates fight for the life of a child and then not only do they not adopt children but the minute the child is born they don't want it to have food or health care. Circular thinking with no solutions.

I used to give to charities but quit donating even a dollar at the grocery check out line when I found out that many times less than a dime of my dollar goes to the actual cause. Salvation Army is the only charity I give to anymore because the "Captain" (CEO in our world) takes only a very modest salary.

As much as I like Ron Paul at the debates I still feel that at the core of all of them there is a certain meanness of spirit. I got mine to hell with you. Cain, when he brags about how anyone can succeed with hard work makes me wonder why his parents were poor their entire life. How many of us have worked hard all our lives and have some degree of comfort but are hardly in the 1% and now they want to take that from us?

Anyways I'm glad you got over the New Deal thingy....lol...now that's called holding a resentment. I feel that we should support our fellow American instead of trying to screw 'em out of the little most of us have. I really am getting more than just a little sickened and disheartened as this election season carries on.

WRONG 1SGFitzsWife4ID

Questions About Romney’s Sons and Military Service

thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com

Mr. Romney expressed appreciation for the country’s “volunteer army” and said “that’s the way we’re going to keep it. He explained his sons had made different career choices in life and had not chosen to serve in the military but he mentioned a niece whose husband he said had just been called up by the National Guard.

Until you post something different that can be checked you are just WRONG. AND he wants our children to go serve....something very wrong in that!

I apologize I was listening to the debate and not watching it at the time, I thought it was Romney who said he had 2 sons in the Navy.

I voted for Bush because he was a Christian............I will NOT NOT be voting for any of the right-wing Christians.

All the GOP hopefuls are inept!!!!!!

Sandy

Why you change so drastically about your previous support for Bush and now you support for Obama. According to your previous post you said you are a progressive liberal and they vote always Democrat. I notice also that many other hardcore liberals come up with the same lie. "I vote for republican but my vote will be for Obama". Are you trying to convince the undecided with false statements? What a joke.

Next Republican 'debate', December 10.

UHHH OHHH!!! ......... Full moon!!! :-O

I agree with a previous post that stated that there should be universal service in the military, then those in power would do more thinking, and U use the word loosely, before they committed our country to war, and this would include all women too. In fact, maybe we should limit the vote and ability to hold office, to those that have served in the military.

Interesting Gary.

Rico -

You raise quite a disparate and contentious set of issues. And you've set up a scarecrow by presenting the "Republican" (your term, not mine) views in such an anecdotal and truncated and way.

I will resist the temptation to address each of your points individually. Suffice it to say, my experience with conservatives has been starkly different from yours. For instance, I know at least a dozen families who are "pro-life" and who have taken foster and adoptive children in their home (and I do not have an especially large social circle). Many of the conservatives I know are among the most giving and charitable folks I've met. They are also thoughtful, and their logic is seldom circular and typically not based in vagaries and abstractions.

To respond generally, however, I suppose I would just challenge you to consider whether you are being fair to conservatives in your arguments. Do you really think that Republicans or conservatives want to see children go hungry or homeless? Perhaps some are callous to the suffering of others, but that is true of humanity in general, liberals and conservatives alike. A true conservative (in the modern sense of that word, as it is used in the American political lexicon) does not question whether poor orphans should be helped; rather, they question whether the government should be doing the lion's share of providing that help. My previous post explains why I think it should not (but, as I also explained, it is probably a necessary feature in our culture today).

By the way, I should mention that I'm not a Republican, but I am a conservative-leaning independent. I do my best to give each side an honest intellectual critique. I hope you will do the same.

Foreign policy should always include minding your own business as rule 1.

I agree Trevor. We should get bacl to what our founding fathers espoused. Do not get invomved in foreign entanglements, though events such as WWII would warrent an intervention.

Jelly Belly I live in Texas and I am surrounded by Republican/TPers. I know them well. One of the things I KNOW is that fostering a child becomes a way to make a living for a stay at home mother/wife. It is NOT the same as adopting a child where one takes on ALL monetary responsibility. Fostering provides a good income. I would like to know how many pro-lifers you know personally who have adopted a child who isn't in any way related to them. Because I don't know any!

When I ask a Republican what they dislike about Obama's administration they say:

45% of the people don't pay taxes and I have to inform them that those people are POOR and that they do have S.S. and Medicare taken out of their paychecks. That if they want to be angry at anyone they should be blaming the Wal-Marts of the world who employ people and yet these very people are still in poverty level income and qualify for food stamps, free medical and rent subsidies. These people work but are still kept in poverty.

The government pays for abortion. That as we know just isn't true. The only time a woman in poverty is provided a state abortion is under extreme distress due to something like rape.

Obama Care...Ironically it's the people who have gone to the ER for free care (that I end up paying for) who yell the loudest.

Smaller government seems to be a battle cry. So I ask...do you want to give up policemen, firemen, public schools, air traffic controllers, social security, medicare , immunizations for children, jails/prisons, roads/bridges, quit taking the census? I mean really.....

Deregulation seems to be the other battle cry. Well, we are in the midst of what deregulation does and yet they still can't see why we need regulation in all areas. A system without checks and balances just does NOT work.

And for all you religious zealots out there reading this why does your religion say it's the ONLY way, the ONLY one? You think God feels like this? Jesus? Read about the Piso family.

Now Jelly Belly you say you are an Independent. Please tell me what are the principles the Democrats hold that you agree to. I'm very interested in that...thanks.

Rico,

You have asked questions of hypothetical Republicans, regarding hand-picked issues, provided hypothetical answers that are patently unsatisfying, then held up your dissatisfaction as proof that Republicans are thoughtless and irrational. It is a quintessential example of the rhetorical device called the "strawman" argument.

Your "small-government" paragraph is the best example of this. You ask, "do you want to give up policemen, firemen, public schools . . . roads/bridges," etc. What a disingenuous question! Mainstream conservatives that favor small government are not anarchists. But you pose a question that portrays their position as utterly unreasonable. That is a strawman. The questions you should be asking "small government" conservatives:

• Do you think the Department of Agriculture should spend $700,000 investigating methane gas emissions from dairy cows, only to conclude, "Cows emit most of their methane through belching, only a small fraction from flatulence"?
• Do you think the Dept. of Veterans Affairs should spend $175,000,000 maintaining buildings it doesn't use (including a pink, octagonal monkey house in Dayton, OH?
• Do you think the federal government should give $1,000,000 in grants for zoos to post plaques with poetry?
• Do you think the National Institute of Health should spend $1,300,000 per month to rent a lab that it does not use?
• Do you think that Congress should continue to ignore efficiency recommendations from the Dept. of Health and Human Services that would save an estimated $9,000,000,000 annually?
• Do you think the federal government should spend $2,600,000 to train Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly?

These are real examples of government spending. Waste is rampant in the government; it has shown itself to be a very poor and inefficient steward of our resources. Therefore, we should, as much as is practical, limit its role to essential functions. The examples you list are almost entirely essential functions.

As an aside, your post reminds me of why I am more conservative than I used to be. I used to consider myself a moderate, somewhat liberal on some issues and somewhat conservative on others. About 10 years ago, I started drifting more toward the conservative side. I wondered about that, thinking maybe it was just natural as one gets older. Then I realized the real reason (this will probably blow your mind): I perceived conservativism as having more intellectual substance and relying less on rhetoric. More importantly, conservatives seemed more open-minded. Your post is a great example of the closed-mindedness that is rampant from the left: you are utterly incredulous that anyone could possibly think about these questions differently from yourself--let alone come up with different answers. You are simply dumbfounded that people have different values, different priorities, a different worldview from yourself. Not that conservatives are uniformly open-minded. Indeed, I think they are less so in general than they used to be. Both sides have become intolerably dogmatic and closed-minded, in my opinion.

All that is to say, contrary to your suggestion, I assure you there are rational and sensible views on each side of the issues you raise. The job of the government is to compromise between two viewpoints that are, generally speaking, both rational and legitimate. Unfortunately, the public discourse on these issues suffers because folks on each side are not willing to acknowledge that someone could reasonably have a different opinion. We now view the government's job as vindicating a particular view; compromise has little to do with it.

As for religion: well, that is a personal matter. As a logical proposition, the truth is, by definition, exclusive. Therefore, if one believes something to be true, then it follows that things inconsistent with that truth are untrue. What is interesting (and ironic) is your reaction to that proposition: you are intolerant of their intolerance.

You ask which Democratic principles I agree to? Well, as a fiscal conservative, I view the Republicans in a poor light in the debt reduction/taxation debate. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of higher taxes, but the debt is a ticking bomb. Higher taxes on wealthier Americans is probably a bitter pill that we need to swallow in order to help "cure" our fiscal maladies (as the same time, we also need to dramatically cut some social entitlement programs, which is a bitter pill for the Dems, but they've shown a willingness to take that medicine, at least a little bit). For what it's worth, I'm also pro-gun control (not outlawing guns, but for tighter controls), and I'm a staunch conservationist (pro-environment), just to throw out a couple of other examples.

Oh, and I almost forgot: I know about 5 families who are pro-life and who have adopted children (so, about 10 people). Several of these are international adoptions, but a couple are domestic. I know of many other families in a more extended circle who have adopted, but couldn't really say that we are friends so didn't count them.

I like and agree with your post above Jelly. As to the adoption issue, well, I think they should be doing more of that at home and not from overseas.

Thanks Gary. I've never presumed to tell my friends how or where they should adopt their children. For my part, however, I will say that an orphan is an orphan. It is a great an noble thing (and not a small sacrifice) to welcome a child into your home as your own. The color of the child's skin, or where he comes from, makes little difference to me.

You are a little confused. Its the money and power hungry Democrates that want to tax people. The more money they get, the more power they get.

You just can't make this stuff up. I theorize that the GOP wants to nuke everybody as a part of their foreign/domestic policy and this goofball only complains about the "..and tax 'em" part of my theory.

What a maroon.

Obama/Biden 2012 So we can educate Maroons like this guy above

Skip - glad to see someone else remembers Bugs Bunny.

DEMOCRAT FOREIGN POLICY = allow Iran to acquire nuclear weapons so they can NUKE US...

- topple Islamic Dictators so the Islamic Terrorists can take over

-criticize Israel until it's surrounded by terrorists propelling bombs across their borders

-continue giving billions to Pakistan even though they are friends with the Taliban

- continue funding the U.N. so "crazies" like the Iranian Leader can have a forum within which he can rant against the U.S.

-allow as many "illegals" as possible to sneak across our borders so the Democrat Party can GROW.

skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City

Seriously Skip - If we were all gone who would do the work for the 1%?

leona: lol.

iran is going to nuke us? I don't think so. Check out the globe and explain how that would happen. Now, israel might be a target if that every happened, but last I checked, that's a different country than ours.

topple islamic dictators so islamic terrorists can take over? Interesting claim. Where did this happen? Got an actual example? And are you saying we should prop up dictators, thereby displaying our love of freedom? lol. Do we send in our troops to make sure they aren't disposed? are you ready to volunteer to go to egypt and fight and die? i didn't think so.

and criticizing israel is going to cause bombs to mysteriously appear? lol.

Pakistan - well, that's kinda fair..of course, the republicans funded them too, so its really a "US" policy, not democratic.

UN - same thing.

thanks for the "fair and balanced" post. :)

Hey do you think Koch Cain Train has figured out where Libya is yet?

LMAO!

Hey do you think Perry can remember at least 3 things or anything at all?

LMAO!

Jimbo

Exactly, but they want to reduce us to the status of "poor". The glowing survivors will work CHEAP.

Skip, "You just can't make this stuff up" but you just did. Which I might add is par for the course on the internet.

Look back at history and see what party started/got us involved in most wars. How ignorant can one person be.

LEONA-2986819--do you lack the creativity to top Skip? I think that he's dead on the money. Wanna nuke him?

how about we make the rich guy that contributes/bribes the most have to represent their party.lets cut out the congressional middle man.why pretend we have representation with either party

Leona - You gotta be kidding me right ? WTF is wrong with all you righties ....do you have some sorta amnesia ? You don't remember anything that happened prior to jan. 20th 2009 ?

Well let me jog your memory point by point -

DEMOCRAT FOREIGN POLICY = allow Iran to acquire nuclear weapons so they can NUKE US...

This administration is doing exactly what the previous administration was doing for 8 years before Obama took office. They are trying to pressurize iran into compliance using international forums which keeps yielding zero result because of the intransigence of China and Russia. We cannot do anything else. You want a pre-emptive strike on Iran ? You can handle China's ire if you do ? Can you ? Well ? Can you ?

Oh and by the way ...your precious Reagon, he a conservative republican, was theone who actually gave Arms to Iran. Read about Iran Contra Affair.

- topple Islamic Dictators so the Islamic Terrorists can take over

Oh really - and what do you have to say about Bush toppling Saddam and making a holy bloody mess in Iraq ? Do you think it is the christian missionaries taking over in Iraq right not ? Seriously. Don't you righties have any brains ? Do you even think it through before spouting anti Obama , anti democrat bull@!$%# ? Do you even have the faculty to reconcile your statements so that they don't end up contradicting your own previous stands ?

-criticize Israel until it's surrounded by terrorists propelling bombs across their borders

Who is criticizing Israel ? Show me one democrat who has criticized israel ? Israeli criticism usually comes from white supremacists jew hating sons of bitches and let me assure you , none of them are democrats.

-continue giving billions to Pakistan even though they are friends with the Taliban

Oh my god. You really need a CAT scan of your brain. But first someone should just knock your head with bare knuckles just to make sure there is no hollow sound coming which would make the CAT scan a moot issue. May i remind you that Pakistan was cultivated as our "most important ally" by Bush administration in the aftermath of 2001 ? Democrats are just continuing that policy mainly because we need Pakistan to stage our supply and support missions - both land and air - into neighboring Afganistan.

- continue funding the U.N. so "crazies" like the Iranian Leader can have a forum within which he can rant against the U.S.

Bush was in power for 8 years why didn't he chuck UN out of America ? The iranian joker made 3 appearances during Bush years and did the exact same thing he did during his recent appearance. I didn't see any republicans throwing him and the UN out into the sea ? Where were you then ?

-allow as many "illegals" as possible to sneak across our borders so the Democrat Party can GROW.

Amazing. As per every single news source and even the ICE websites, Obama administration has deported almost twice the number of illegals in 3 years than Bush did in the same amount of time and yet - it is the democrats who are letting in the illegals. My question is again the same - you had republicans ruling the country for 8 straight years - What did they accomplish on the illegal immigration front ? Did they erect any fences ? Did they push for holding companies hiring illegals legally responsible ? Oh no ....wait a minute ...but Bush did announce in his second term to ....hold your breath - grant amnesty to all 11 million illegals - a call taken up and repeated by McCain ...

So my question dear LEONA is - Do you even know WTF are you talking about ?

@ johnQcitizen

If we continue deregulating corporations (see citizens united) that is exactly what will happen.

MrIndia the real question is are you the STUPID ONE? Let me educate you. 1) Topple Islamic Dictators so the Islamic Terrorists can take over; Well the people in Libya are sure showing their true colors and have been. Bush invaded Iraq but didn't just topple the leader and let the people have at it, we went in and maintained control, I was one of those soldiers on multiple tours doing just that. Libya the rebels had known ties to our enemy but your Barry didn't seem to mind on helping the bad guys, now they took out the dictator they have said they would not even hand over the lockerbee bomber to us, their new temp leader just said Sharia Law will be the law now, but wait MrIndia under the dictator didn't women go to college, school, drive, have shops of their own, walk down the streets without a male escort, and even join the military. Also didn't under Bush that dictator hand over all his WMDs. Something to think about it, that's if you Barry supporters know how to think. You also have Egypt and look what is going on know after your great Barry told Murbarak to step down, the country is being torn apart, even the Christians that had helped get rid of him, that protected the Muslims from the military and police while they prayed during the day, are now getting their churches burned, getting killed etc... So again if you can think, lets give it a try MrIndia. 2) Criticize Israel until it's surrounded by terrorists propelling bombs across their borders. Your Barry since day 1 has criticized Israel, telling them they need to return to Pre-1967 borders, constantly telling Israel is wrong for the developments and extreme show of force against those other people, WOW MrIndia again look I see what's going on you can think I know you can but you got to get your head out of Barry's rear end or get your mouth off his crotch, your mind is lacking air. Let us continue shall we? 3) Continue giving billions to Pakistan even though they are friends with the Taliban. Yes under Bush they were an important ally and really a pretty good one but after their leader had to step down, that is when all hell broke lose, see under him they were westernizing their nation, their military was really helping engage the enemy, so I can see the billions going to them then when they were helping, now with the new government in place over there, they have sided with our enemy, hide the most wanted man from us, and continue to threaten war if we don't stop the drone strikes. Oh Pakistan woe is you, do your damn job and we wouldn't be haing this discussion. Are you getting your mind some air now MrIndia? 4) Allow as many "illegals" as possible to sneak across our borders so the Democrat Party can GROW. Both parties are at fault here, but it has been shown that the group your Barry was in bed with ACRON was getting Illegals a way to vote in Cali for Barry, those big numbers you are talking about Barry deporting, go to the ICE and see that majority of those numbers are coming from repeat offenders, not different people, not new illegals. How about now that if you have roots here and are no threat to the USA you won't get deported, illegal is illegal what do you liberal Barry drones do not get about that, is it to hard to read the United States Code, or the 10 page immgration law reading must be hard for yall. Then his dream act, him praising states that give in state tution prices to illegals but US citizens have to pay out of state if they are not from those states. REALLY MrIndia, WTF are you talking about, are all of you that blind, that retarded, that stupid, or do you all have your heads so far up Barry's A$$ that you all can't see or think. Now the UN statement and the Iran policy statement both parties are again at fault, but MrIndia please educate yourself, it would really help better our nation and further your life's dreams and the chance to accomplish them, but if you stay stupid like you are know then you are not only hurting yourself but our nation. It's always the smallest change that can lead to the greater changes and that starts with all you RETARDED Demos.

LMAO...Iran nuke us? They don't even have a long range ballistic missle system that could reach Great Britain, let alone the United States. You people are afraid because the MSM tells you to be. Americans should learn to think for themselves, to take care of themselves, and be responsible for themselves. Quit relying on someone else to tell you what to think, do, or believe. Ron Paul 2012!

MrIndia, you're post is obviously correct. So don't let the trolls like Leona get under your skin. No one could be that obtuse and mistaken about so many things; the alternative explanation - it's just lies! Google "paid right wing trolls" and see what I mean.

But thanks to all the readers who denude these falsehoods, like yourself, the right wing propaganda is actually backfiring. The reactions of normal people to the absurd claims, distortions, pretensions, and outright lies of theses troll posts not only neutralizes the effect of the anti-Obama propaganda, but reinforces the growing awareness of the TP/GOP's true allegiance to their rich masters, and their shameless willingness to use any unethical tactic to win. Fortunately, the excesses of the GOP's greedy masters has caused the public to catch on to their absolute corruptness and I see mounting evidence that the misguided political wave that swept the GOP into power in 2010 will justifiably sweep them back out again in 2012.

obama did fine in debates without a teleprompter. Try to keep up, and avoid fox talking points.

RealHope

Obama did a great job in debates without teleprompters because he actually knows what he's talking about. I know that is hard to grasp when you're used to people like the current GOP candidates winging' it when they don't know the answers.

I can't wait until your ilk decides on one of these fools so we can see them be thrashed by Obama in the real debates. In the meantime I'll be enjoying the show. The GOP debates have given me a lot of laughs recently!

Ever see those funnies about the Gnus, one of them shouts Lion and a hundred Gnus run into each other trying to get away. Does it remind you of the Republican candidates. Someone says, Obama, and they run all over themselves trying to place something to blame him for. Its the deficit, no its becaus he won't fix the deficit, its foreign policy, no its because he doesn't have one, he's bringing the troops home, he should be keeping the troops over there even if they don't want them in Iraq, its the unemployment, but lets not vote for a jobs bill. He won't balance the budget, he wants to tax the very wealthy, the man has got to be crazy, he wants to take away our loop holes, he must be a socialist. How unAmerican. Suddenly all of them knock each other down and start blaming the idiot who shouted Obama.

BGuy

what "realHope"? Are you on drugs? The country is in horrible shape and getting worse. Prices for food and most everything else is out of sight, no jobs etc. etc. and your promoting Obama the campaigner, this do nothing has been on a campaign to get elected or reelected for years now . Obama is so out of his element it's ALMOST funny. Once again are you on drugs?

RealHope: You've never seen Obama on the stump? Look at the video tapes for heaven's sake...on any informal rally...or go out and see him for yourself. Really, if you're going to keep spouting that ditto head nonsense about him supposedly being a puppet (um, would that be of Biden's?) wouldn't you at least bother to check it out before insisting on making yourself look so ridiculous? Are you going to keep pretending we'bve never actually seen the President for ourselves? ( don't you have a birthcertificate to fret over or something?)

im voting for the republican with the biggest brests.i think thats perry at the moment.sorry bachman.

AP-1414066

RealHope: You've never seen Obama on the stump? Look at the video tapes for heaven's sake...on any informal rally...or go out and see him for yourself. Really, if you're going to keep spouting that ditto head nonsense about him supposedly being a puppet (um, would that be of Biden's?) wouldn't you at least bother to check it out before insisting on making yourself look so ridiculous? Are you going to keep pretending we'bve never actually seen the President for ourselves? ( don't you have a birthcertificate to fret over or something?)

I had the opportunity to see the man at an Iowa stop engage the crowd in such a sincere way and have open discussions--2 way discussions. He's a fine President that was handed more weight than any President before him. I think that if we reach inside ourselves, ignoring what the right wing rags say, you have to know that this guy knows a lot about life and is a smart leader.

The right questioned his ability to be tough on radical factions and he passed that test, hands down--without the lies and swagger.

I look at these "conservatives" morally bankrupt weasels that can do a 180 on positions in 5 seconds--I don't trust any of them and these debates show me how full of absolute bull@!$%# they are.

Sandtrich#3.8: A very truthful and poignant statement. We have yet to really see the greatness of President Obama since the opposition have continually blocked and obstructed his efforts. The President will beat any of these bs'ers. We all need to rid the congress of that ilk, then we can all realize the benefits of his greatness. Conservatives running about, peddling moral and economic poverty as a means to attain "the good life" are like the herd of bulls claiming none of them let the smelly fart, since they all ate the same food, therefore the odor came upon the wind.

I agree he will beat all the Bu** Shi**ers!! you bet,

But he won't beat Ron Paul....

Go Ron Paul

Hey Ron, I know it save's money but this is not the best place to campaign

JohnQcitizen :

I would like to recognize you as the person with the funniest post on this thread. Seriously i almost died from laughing too hard... LOL

It's too bad Ron Paul opposes the First Amendment and the Civil Rights Act.

Where do you get that from Toasty?

Egilman- there's two people on the vine that aren't worth the time to argue Ron Paul with, Toasty is one of them, they have it in their heads that Dr. Paul is some evil entity and no matter how many times you debunk their little myths they still won't listen.

Google Ron Paul: He advocates Non-Interventionism. You might like it.

Better yet, visit http://www.dailypaul.com/

Watch Dr. Paul get marginalized tonight because his concern is for America, and not Israel.

I like Ron and even sent him some money one time. I can't give you a rational reason not to vote for him. There is just something.......

Youtube has great stuff on him too.

Ron Paul the only person in that pack that I can listen to.

Ron Paul: Isolationism, not "non-interventionism". One of the many, many reasons he's not taken seriously.

Wake the hell up. Non interventionism is when you don't get involved in another nation's politics. Isolationism is where you don't want to get involved with anyone period, like Japan in the 18th century had no contact with the outside world. Paul wants to trade freely with nations, just not get involved in other nations' business. God damn I am sick of these morons not knowing the difference.

so far ron paul is the best candidate available on either party.i really didnt want to vote for a republican but if hes the candidate i will.obama is better then the rest of the republican field put together

Ron Paul would have probably been noted during the era of "Thomas Paine".

Ron Paul has got my vote.

The field is hilarious. They remind me of circus clowns piling out of a Volkswagen bug. Seriously!

Kind of like Obama's policy for everything, "blame Bush"?

You do realize the the whole country blames Bush, right? I mean, he did cause all the problems we see today...

40 years of bad policy from both sides have caused the situation we are in today. Blame everybody. Now lets get to work fixing it so my kids have a future to look forward to.

Give it a rest

What ever happened for the last forty years may have been both parties fault for good or bad but what happened to the country in the last eleven years is due to Bush Cheney policies and two unfunded wars. Put that together with deregulation, greed and corruption and you have the cause. If we are going to have a change for the better, the Bush Chaney policies need to go. Someone needs to tell the Repubs because they are the ones not listening and continue to fight for tax breaks and deregulation on business which are the policies that caused the problems.

Actually Jennifer, it was still the policy of both parties to deregulate, especially the financial service industries, which is what really caused the collapse, along with two unfunded wars. The deregulation of the industries started during the Clinton administration and continued into the Bush. Additionally, the so-called 'Free Trade' agreements have decimated this country. Personally, I think it was all done intentionally to bring down the American middle-class.

Gary

This is how I see it. We had several years with deregulation in the recent past and the deregulation allowed mismanagement and fraud in some cases. Deregulation should be restricted and monitored if you are going to allow it. It is being pushed so that industry can glean more on the cheap and to the detriment of the environment and health and safety of the nation. Just as important is the lack of oversight that deregulation brings which has allowed the greedy and corrupt to thrive in the past. If we do no learn from our mistakes then we as a nation are stupid. Greed trumps all other instincts it seems.

I agree. Greed and corruption rule the day.

False, actually. The statement that Obama went around the world apologizing for the United States was rated "PANTS ON FIRE" by Politifact.com:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/22/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-repeats-claim-obama-went-around-world-/

"While Obama's speeches contained some criticisms of past U.S. actions, those passages were typically leavened by praise for the United States and its ideals, and he frequently mentioned how other countries have erred as well. We found not a single, full-throated apology in the bunch. And on the new angle Romney has added -- that the trips were intended to offer the president a forum to apologize to other countries -- we think it’s a ridiculous charge. There’s a clear difference between changing policies and apologizing, and Obama didn’t do the latter. So we rate Romney’s statement Pants on Fire."

In addition, it's hard to keep spreading the lie about Obama supporting radical Muslims, as the President who killed bin Laden and Ghaddafi. Kinda takes the wind out of your sails.

Who did he apologize to?

for people who are clueless about obama's foreign policy like cheryl - it is to intelligently fight wars (not recklessly invade countries based on bad intelligence), allow other countries to take the lead when called for, get consensus..all wimpy approaches, of course, if you are from the macho "nuke 'em!" school of thought.

clotho: that is what is amazing. Obama sent more troops to afghanistan to fight radical muslims, increased predator drones to kill radical muslims, provided aid in yemen to fight radical muslims, killed the most wanted radical muslim around..and yet somehow people like cheryl conclude that he's a supporter of radical muslims?

It boggles the mind..and makes you concerned about the future of the country that people could be so clueless in the face of such obvious evidence.

"Treat our allies like dirt"?????

Apparently, Cheryl lost her last functioning brain cell when she choked on an order of "Freedom Fries".

Poor little thing.....

CherylLM

And what's Obama's "foreign policy"?

Why it's to apologize for being an American. Treat our allies like dirt. And support anything and everything that seems to strengthen the influence of radical Muslims that want our country destroyed.

Yes, I especially enjoyed his apology to Osama Ben Laden... you know, the 6 foot saudi that GW wanted "dead or alive"...but just couldn't seem to get somehow.

politifact.com

leftwing pro-Obama bs site.

Hilarious.

The world thinks Obama is a joke. And not a very funny one.

Cheryl, I bet France would have a different theory on the Allies statement especially from the previous administration.

doug: long on obama hate, short on facts. lol.

hilarious. :)

Like killing Bin Laden for instance, this was actually a labor of love for the Islamist Jihadist on his part I would suppose that's how you interpret it. So far what ever his foreign policy has been, its resulted in the fall of three dictators and the imminent collapse of a fourth one without putting one soldier on the ground. Oh, thats not fair because Bush got us into two wars, which has cost us a mere trillion dollars and nearly 5000 young men. What I cannot understand is why we have to pay to rebuild Iraq when it has ample oil to pay for any rebuilding its own infrastructure, did Obama agree to this also, or was this an agrrement engineered by the Bush Administration. I do fail to see why we are still in Afghanistan because it will revert to a Moslem dominated society of whatever ilk it deems it wants to follow once we have left. They are more adept at killing themselves than we could ever hope to be.

CherylLM

Pull the bag off your head and see the light. GOPs are actually complaining that Obama had an american, self-professed member of Al-Qaeda killed in a drone attack. They complained that the victim was an american citizen. Any Other other response would have had to give the President credit

Hey CheralLm

Who got Bin Laden Wasn't the incompetent Bush

Why did Bush let Osama Bin Laden get away? He was cornered in Afghanistan yet the entire American military machine FAILED to get him Did Bush let him get away on purpose or is the entire American military machine just incompetent? And after 7 years of war Bush failed to destroy the Taliban

Oh forget about Cheney he was to busy hiding in an undisclosed location just like he hid during the Vietnam war.

Obama eliminated binLaden in a fraction of what it cost to invade, occupy and subjugate Iraq to get rid of Reagan's buddy Saddam. Now, the clown debate tonight will probably state the same failed GOP foreign policiesof the last thirty year. Epic fail coming

Sheryl: you are soooo far out of your league.

The guy who found Bin Laden was an old Bush man. "John" had been after Bin Laden since 9/11. He recieved some info from a terrorist that was caught in Iraq. Obama called Bush on May 1st and told him about "John" finding Bin Laden. Obama admistration will not talk about "John" much because he is CIA but also Obama wants 99% of the credit.

Bin Laden should have been killed in 98 (Africa bombings) 99 (drone over his head) 2000 ( the Cole) but a playboy moron was in office signing subprime bills, banking law changes and derivatives bills.

Clinton recieved the peace dividend and then lost it. 7 trillion dollars down the drain including the F.C.

usa1998.com

Save your breath Phil. These stupid democrats all have long term memory loss. They can't remember anything unless it is in the papers at that moment.

Phil Nothstein: According to the Seals commander " john" is a goddamn liar. Who you gonna believe?

Hey Witchking. Clinton had OBL in drone sights on camera and let him go. Why was that? Did Bush say let him be free?

Obama wanted all the credit ?

That must be why every republican of the last administration was on television the very next day trying to take credit !!!

stupid post. references to teleprompters and vacations are just obvious fox talking points that make you sound like a mindless hack.

You sound like a Norquist zombie. Say something that is relevant!

Actually Realhope has done an accurate description of BO. If folks cannot admit that is what BO does things are not well.

BO has complained and blamed and whined everytime he has the opportunity. Even when things go well for him he has to get his dirty dig in.

He isn't atypical of this, it's just that he is on the high end of the obnoxious scale. He has not brought people together, he has seperated them and seems to find glee in doing it.

Hope and Change will come in 2012

Obama just slit the bellies of the GOP and they have not noticed yet. too funny.

so bill, you think the "vacation" part of his description was accurate? lol, want me to dig up statistics on vacations by president? And the teleprompter was just plain silly..and the 'blame' references were a bit exaggerated. Of course, no reference to his foreign policy work, health care, or other activities (you can disagree with them, but he did do them).

accurate? i think not. except to a certified obama hater. :)

@REALHOPE. That looks like a page out of Rev Jerimiah Wrights sermon book.

Hey RealHope...were you in a coma from 2001 to 2008? Bush holds the record for time on vacation plus all of his other goofs. I guess the study about those only following FAUX news is correct.

Grow up, real hope.

You mean to say Libya is not in the Middle East? How can they have Muslin Brotherhoods?

And the Dems. have Soross. Both parties have their money men making policy. One is no better than the other. We have a two party system because we can't have some sensable thrid party mudding up the waters. I see so much hate between parties on these posts it's scary. I would like to see everyone of you to get up in front of the world and see if you can do any better. You want to run? Ha! You all P**S me off. We need more Ron Pauls to stand up for us citizens.

And buy some decent clothes at wall mart. A few Van Heusen shirts with matching ties in the package. And some Dockers!!! Now we are talking turkey!! ..........i'm hungry.

Old Newt stole that line from the Palin groupies.

Maybe Newt will explain his Arab Spring jobs policy for those not working: the poor need to get jobs as janitors (hey, that's his advice for saving failing schools...you can NOT make this stuff up.)

actually I think he said that the children at those schools should get jobs as janitors :/

who needs those pesky child labor laws?

That stuff twirling around in his head is called tumbleweed.

Herman Wanted to be up to his neck in Fanny as opposed to Clinton that actually scored.

Clinton ain't runnin itc

He isn't ? Dang!

I wonder how much those to rich to fail congress, made off insider trading? I bet all of those republicans & democrats made a sh*tload of money.

well there is a lot of stuff swirling around in their heads.

Redundant...they'll all spout a rehashed version of the Communist Containment Policy.

better red than dead! domino theory!

High as a Georgia pine and coherent as a "hair lipped opera singer".

With OWS dominating the media for two weeks I forgot I was low on popcorn!!

Watch for Perry to look at his wrist for ball point pen talking points. LOL

Watch for Mitt Romneycare to act above it all and aloof. ie like a rich person.

Watch for Michelle to look like she just had a fresh botox injection and an extra anti-depressant

Listen for Cain to say something unbelievably stupid and racist

Did I forget anyone that counts?

cowboy17

I just love your eloquent comment; it must be indicative of your political affiliation;Republican, right?

closet...shhhh

ltcommander72

"Did I forget anyone that counts?"

Not even the ones you did mention, count; every last one of them is a "loser".

With that said; grab yourself a bowl of popcorn a can of beer and enjoy watching the Republican comedy hour.

Sanctions are crap. If you can't get Russia and China in on it (and it's unlikely they will) you can take sanctions, put that idea in a pipe and smoke it with the rest of the liberals. Sabotage is a great idea that's worked in the past, but only prolongs the situation (not that I don't think it should continue). What's worse, ten $ a gallon gas, or a nuclear Iran? That's what it comes down to. They're close to that bomb Johnny, and they want Israel real, real bad. But hey, a nuclear Iran might be so bad right? it could be like a mini cold war, with every side too scared to actually drop it; which is the most likely scenario without some action soon.

First of all, they've been saying Iran is that close to a bomb for at least ten years, if not more.

Secondly, Israel has something like 200 nuclear warheads and the means to deliver them. In fact, they are frothing at the mouth at the prosepct. So why would Iran commit suicide like that? They are not stupid.

Just silly, silly Fox talking points.

Talk is cheap unemployment has been in excess of nine percent for three years now. The deficit is close to fifteen trillion dollars.

lt for the most part I don't like you but that made me lol great post!

You're seriously accusing someone else of conspiracy? ...ROFLMAO

MOT: I think you've been kicked in the head by one too many kangaroos...your elitist controller is calling you...time to return home....